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Old 11-17-2011, 05:03 AM   #51
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

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Hanna Björk wrote: View Post
Here's an interview with Kobayashi Yasuo in which he explains his view on the matter. He has very obviously chosen a different approach than the most common one. ...
I don't see anything wrong with this approach.
.
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Hanna Björk wrote: View Post
I think the second part of this thread is about the OP's agony since he is in conflict with himself, being asked to do something he finds very difficult and probably not will yield good results, and having problems speaking up about it. IMHO that is what he has to do, since not speaking up creates a situation which in his mind - and probably the rest of the training environment - reflects badly on the teacher. What he can't do is take responsability for the teacher's decisions. He can only speak up for himself. ...
This is a great test of character.

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Old 11-17-2011, 07:38 AM   #52
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Yeah. Martial arts are hard. Get over it.
Or, alternately, martial arts are no harder than getting (and keeping) a job, handling your teenager's issues, talking to your neighbor who plays loud music at 2 am, or dealing with the death of a loved one.

I understand that for many practitioners, martial arts practice is the catalyst that causes them to start to notice and experience all kinds of new things and develop new abilities. This is where the "aikido is my life" thing comes from, IMO, and where you get people claiming that they "used aikido" to deal with a difficult situation at work. It's sort of true for them, but only in the sense that if the only tool you have experienced is a hammer, then "hammer" is the extent of your vocabulary to talk about tools. The reality is that our lives are full of the challenges and epiphanies that many martial arts enthusiasts believe are exclusive to, or inherently tied to, martial arts training. And it's quite likely that the individual in this case has already lived quite a bit of life, and has faced worse rejections and more devastating reassessments of himself and his abilities in other contexts. It's possible he faces more daunting challenges every day. Just because we're inclined here to invest our progress in aikido with so much significance, don't forget that it's just one part of a much bigger series of challenges. The next rank is a huuuuuge deal to a 9-year-old yellow belt in a suburban taekwondo school; it's not likely to be such an enormous thing to an adult.
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Old 11-17-2011, 08:18 AM   #53
Basia Halliop
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

What Mary said .

As far as testing, I can understand only recommending people to test when they're ready, and I can understand recommending people to test at regular intervals and only passing those that are ready, it's when they're doing _neither_ (as was being suggested in this thread) that I feel like I'm in some weird universe that I don't understand. If everyone must take the test automatically AND everyone must pass automatically, than in what universe does that mean _anything_? Where is the 'test' part?

Is it just an opportunity to collect extra fees? Because that's the only purpose I can think of that it serves...? It just doesn't make any sense. Why would anyone bother? If they're so opposed to the idea of tests as that, then just throw out the whole idea of ranks and have everyone wear a white belt, from the first-day student to the teacher. At least that would be honest and less confusing.
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Old 11-17-2011, 09:43 AM   #54
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
The next rank is a huuuuuge deal to a 9-year-old yellow belt in a suburban taekwondo school; it's not likely to be such an enormous thing to an adult.
Also, most probably a kyu rank in one budo art means less to someone who already is a yudansha in another. Even if the other art is not a budo, so there is not actual dan rank, I think the same applies to all students who already are advanced students in another martial art.
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Old 11-17-2011, 02:58 PM   #55
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
The next rank is a huuuuuge deal to a 9-year-old yellow belt in a suburban taekwondo school; it's not likely to be such an enormous thing to an adult.
While I think this is true for the majority of students I have experience with several students where the rest of their lives offers them nothing and progressing (gaining rank) in Aikido or whatever art they are in is the only think they have in their life. Their life is going to practice and ranking up as much and as quick as possible. So every rank is a huuuuge deal. Even to the 30-40 year olds.

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Old 11-17-2011, 08:15 PM   #56
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

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Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
While I think this is true for the majority of students I have experience with several students where the rest of their lives offers them nothing and progressing (gaining rank) in Aikido or whatever art they are in is the only think they have in their life. Their life is going to practice and ranking up as much and as quick as possible. So every rank is a huuuuge deal. Even to the 30-40 year olds.
Well, that's unfortunate, but just how much power do you think you have to save such a profoundly unbalanced person from his/her inevitable disappointment?
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Old 11-17-2011, 09:29 PM   #57
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

If rank is important to a person, though, then surely they would want it to be real, no? What good is a fake rank to anyone anyway? A fake rank is just embarrassing.... There's no shame in not knowing something yet -- until you start hiding it and pretending...

Aikido is important to many of us - but that should make us more bothered by dishonesty, politics, lack of standards, etc... not less...
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Old 11-17-2011, 09:40 PM   #58
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

IMO, the point about the child getting the yellow belt isn't about the relative importance of the training in the life of the child versus the adult (from what I see it's normally the other way around, with the kids seeing it as more of a game) - it's about the child's immaturity and lack of life experience making them less able to deal with normal failures and challenges and delayed gratification.

You see it sometimes in the kids' class -- if there's a game where it's possible to win or lose, the 5 year olds often cry and are devastated if they lose. But the same kids by 6 they'd still rather win but they've learned to handle it with a more positive attitude if they lose, to understand that there will always be more games in the future and that they have a lot of power over how bad they let themselves feel. Usually by then they can shrug it off and talk to their friends...

Likewise you can see kids learn to understand that it's OK to not always get what you want IMMEDIATELY. You can wait a little, and you will get it eventually and enjoy it then, and you will be OK.

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 11-17-2011 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 11-18-2011, 03:24 PM   #59
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

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Well, that's unfortunate, but just how much power do you think you have to save such a profoundly unbalanced person from his/her inevitable disappointment?
I have no power to change the individual. It is only the individual that can save him/herself. The person has to become humble and that isn't always possible. All you can do as the instructor is offer your counsel and hope that what you share will be received.

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Old 11-18-2011, 03:27 PM   #60
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

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If rank is important to a person, though, then surely they would want it to be real, no? What good is a fake rank to anyone anyway? A fake rank is just embarrassing.... There's no shame in not knowing something yet -- until you start hiding it and pretending...

Aikido is important to many of us - but that should make us more bothered by dishonesty, politics, lack of standards, etc... not less...
Very good points. The thing is a person only concerned about obtaining the rank isn't necesarily concerned with gaining the skills. That type of person only wants the position, the title, and/or attention the rank gains them. It is very sad.

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Old 11-18-2011, 03:30 PM   #61
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
IMO, the point about the child getting the yellow belt isn't about the relative importance of the training in the life of the child versus the adult (from what I see it's normally the other way around, with the kids seeing it as more of a game) - it's about the child's immaturity and lack of life experience making them less able to deal with normal failures and challenges and delayed gratification.

You see it sometimes in the kids' class -- if there's a game where it's possible to win or lose, the 5 year olds often cry and are devastated if they lose. But the same kids by 6 they'd still rather win but they've learned to handle it with a more positive attitude if they lose, to understand that there will always be more games in the future and that they have a lot of power over how bad they let themselves feel. Usually by then they can shrug it off and talk to their friends...

Likewise you can see kids learn to understand that it's OK to not always get what you want IMMEDIATELY. You can wait a little, and you will get it eventually and enjoy it then, and you will be OK.
Absolutely! The problem here lies with parents that want to protect their kids from any type of disappointment and a society now that wants everyone to "win." No matter how badly you play you make the team or no matter how well your team does everyone gets a trophy. In the US, IMO, we are failing to teach the youth, who, let's face it, will become adults that have a childs mind, leading to ever more serious problems.

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Old 11-21-2011, 07:57 AM   #62
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

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Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
Absolutely! The problem here lies with parents that want to protect their kids from any type of disappointment and a society now that wants everyone to "win." No matter how badly you play you make the team or no matter how well your team does everyone gets a trophy. In the US, IMO, we are failing to teach the youth, who, let's face it, will become adults that have a childs mind, leading to ever more serious problems.
While I don't approve of helicopter parenting, I don't think you can point to this modern phenomenon as the culprit here. This thread is, after all, talking about an adult, whose childhood would have been well before the age of helicopter parenting. Love of appearance and titles over substance is hardly a new thing in our culture, and if I had to guess, I'd say that helicopter parenting is the expression of that love (sort of), not its cause.
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:24 AM   #63
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

IMHO we don't have enough background to speculate on personal traits of the OP's adversary. (Perhaps nobody is intending to do that, it's just good old thread drift... oh well.)
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:30 AM   #64
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

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IMHO we don't have enough background to speculate on personal traits of the OP's adversary. (Perhaps nobody is intending to do that, it's just good old thread drift... oh well.)
Yeah... we don't even actually know that the guy in question WOULD have any problem with not getting his next rank soon; that's just speculation. For all we know he would be totally fine with it and respect his teacher for telling him to wait. So a lot of the conversation is not really specific to him.

Regardless of what's going on in this particular situation, my experience is that if you expect the best of people they will often rise to the occasion.
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Old 11-21-2011, 02:53 PM   #65
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
While I don't approve of helicopter parenting, I don't think you can point to this modern phenomenon as the culprit here. This thread is, after all, talking about an adult, whose childhood would have been well before the age of helicopter parenting. Love of appearance and titles over substance is hardly a new thing in our culture, and if I had to guess, I'd say that helicopter parenting is the expression of that love (sort of), not its cause.
As Basia states, I don't think we have enough information to honestly say one way or another here.

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Old 11-21-2011, 04:13 PM   #66
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

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As Basia states, I don't think we have enough information to honestly say one way or another here.
Actually, you made a "kids today" statement, and I responded to that. Surely you'll agree that however little information we have about the person being discussed, he is not a kid. QED.
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:43 AM   #67
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: how many back talk would you take?

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Actually, you made a "kids today" statement, and I responded to that. Surely you'll agree that however little information we have about the person being discussed, he is not a kid. QED.
Agreed, he is not a kid by age.

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