Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-19-2011, 12:54 AM   #576
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Everything is a circle and all things flow around it; as so it appears that this thread does too as we come back to your original post

So, Chris, let me just say that your questions above have no definitive answer - absolutely no one alive today can say for sure exactly what Ueshiba's aiki was really about - period. No speculation, perception, or vast amount of evidence can be considered conclusive because it is all speculative without the opportunity to obtain clarification from Ueshiba today.

With that said, you need to form your own conclusions based upon you own consideration of other opinions coupled with your personal experiences. Personally, I give way more credence to those that have the experiences to back up their positions along with corroboration from others - these are the hands on people that have immersed themselves into the dirt of life and have come away with the wisdom of those that can say: 'been there, done that.' The people I give the least credibility to are the ones that do desk top exercises and flaunt their achievements as badges of accomplishments that demand respect and acknowledgment; respect has to be earned and not demanded -humility is the first virtue required for enlightenment and arrogance will perpetually strip you of that opportunity. Please note, there is a difference between confidence and arrogance - the former can personally back up what they say and the latter cannot.

In summary, you really stirred up a hornets nest here - I hope you obtained some useful information out of the myriad amount of BS - maybe the topic of your next thread should be "Ki, and who really had it"

Best

Greg
Greg my old mate. Still going in circles? ha,ha. Just wanted to say I hope you don't believe that arrogant vs confidence quote you made above. That could lead you all kind of wrong places.

Regards.G.
 
Old 11-19-2011, 04:46 AM   #577
Nicholas Eschenbruch
Dojo: TV Denzlingen
Location: Freiburg
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 308
Germany
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Mr. McGrew,

I think you missed the irony in Fred Little's post. (Also, I find it hard to class Bourdieu as post-modern gibberish, but anyway. I take it your own book is published in a series "Studies in the Postmodern Theory of Education"?)

So what is your academic posturing about again? If you are saying that the evidence for some claims that Mark and Dan are making does not hold up to strict academic standards, well yeah, it probably does not, which has been discussed before. It is still the best evidence we have, and from it, a pretty complex argument can be constructed across a variety of different types of sources, against a complex back-drop of the history of the internal arts, referencing a number of published texts (Amdur, Goldsbury etc.).

Now just because the evidence could be better it does not follow that even more spurious evidence you bring up (Saotome Sensei's memory...) will automatically invalidate it.

You could have noticed by now that there are a number of people here who are not in the least deterred by your intellectual chest-beating. You are not the only average intellectual around. I suggest you stop it. First of all, because your students could be reading this, and you are embarassing yourself doing stuff like arguing translation from a language you do not know, and second, more importantly, because this is not an academic argument in the first place. Your appeals to your own authority get you nowhere.
 
Old 11-19-2011, 08:29 AM   #578
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Greg my old mate. Still going in circles? ha,ha. Just wanted to say I hope you don't believe that arrogant vs confidence quote you made above. That could lead you all kind of wrong places.

Regards.G.
Hi, Graham, buddy - Oh, I don't know - IMO, there is difference in the source of both, but their behavioral outputs can appear similar, thereby causing confusion to the casual observer.

As far as circles? yes, all that yin and yang stuff, as you know...

Greg
 
Old 11-19-2011, 08:44 AM   #579
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,211
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Tobs
Big wreck!!
He has taken on Me, Ellis, Fred, Chris, I am sure you're next. And now he is once again taking my words and twisting them in ugly ways.
I said... I would greet you in a friendly exchange,
He is now stating I and "my followers" (I can't even say that with a straight face ) are suggesting violence.
Folks
I just heard from people who know this guy. Thank you for the heads up. While his repeated exchanges like this seem outrageous to us, you should understand that the disconnected and weird responses that are a surprise to us, are real and relevant....to him. Folks, We all know each other enough to have heated but fair and equal exchanges. Right now, we should all just walk away. Mary, Ron, Demetrio, Graham - I can debate with you guys later- I respect each of you, even when we disagree. This is different okay? I'll see you on another thread.

Happy thanksgiving to everyone.
Dan
Happy thanksgiving to you.
M

 
Old 11-19-2011, 09:50 PM   #580
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Hey, just to throw some gas on the fire, I'm at an Ikeda Sensei seminar right this minute (well, earlier today).

He's been doing, guess what, static drills, finding center, unbalancing, showing how to use interior connection to move uke. No big throws, no momentum, no blending if by that you mean matching uke's movement and extending it. Oh, and he says if uke lets himself stay in an unsafe position, you should just punch him. :-)

Think he's got it wrong? We have one more day to go, shall I tell him so?

By the way, I like the Richard Feynman quote. But this is the guy who, when an experimental scientist disproved his favorite theory, said "Let's ignore him. He's a smart guy, he'll figure out he's wrong."

Not long later, the experimental scientist published a retraction.
 
Old 11-20-2011, 04:03 AM   #581
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Mr. Threadgill, the terseness of that post of mine made it easy to misinterpret my meaning. Sorry about that.

R
 
Old 11-20-2011, 12:15 PM   #582
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,964
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
Mr. Threadgill, the terseness of that post of mine made it easy to misinterpret my meaning. Sorry about that.

R
Actually, Raul, it was the formatting: your quoting from the OP was not in a quote box per above so easy to read it as something you were writing.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
 
Old 11-20-2011, 01:26 PM   #583
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Hi, Graham, buddy - Oh, I don't know - IMO, there is difference in the source of both, but their behavioral outputs can appear similar, thereby causing confusion to the casual observer.

As far as circles? yes, all that yin and yang stuff, as you know...

Greg
Yeah, if only. The theory of opposites, oh dear.

Regards.G.
 
Old 11-20-2011, 01:27 PM   #584
Ken McGrew
Dojo: Aikido at UAB
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 202
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Hugh,

Do you claim to be speaking for ASU?

I suggest that you tell Ikeda Sensei that you are using your time with him at the seminar to support people who say he all but lacks Aiki compared to Harden and company. Tell him the things they say or imply about Saotome Sensei. Better yet, show sensei the whole discussion start to finish. Hugh, I challenge you to do so.

You fail to understand at all what Sensei is doing. I have hosted Sensei on two occasions and have had numerous conversations with him about these issues. I have private video footage of him discussing these very issues. I have sat and discussed the meaning of Aiki with both Ikeda and Saotome Senseis at the same table. Ikeda sensei is blending and joining and applying gravity once he has a balance advantage. Because you can't see everything that he's doing doesnt mean that its' not there. He is doing so with an internal emphasis. Some of this he learned from Ushiro Sensei. He sees no contradiction. Often what he shows is at the level of exercise. He has shown me the level of application. Blending is always part of this. So is timing. Etc. and so forth. He does not reject the mainstream notion of Aiki to do so. There is nothing that Sensei is doing that contradicts what Saotome Sensei says about Aiki. Ask him if he contradicts Saotome Sensei. Even the statement about punching an uke who stays in a dangerous place is an endorsement of the need for ukemi.

I am sick of a few people in ASU being pawns for Harden and people like Harden, either speaking in support of him or allowing him to claim to speak for them without the courage to do so themselves. Harden and those who defend him reject what Ikeda does as not what they do and now you try to use him in your embrace of them. You will not use Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei in an attempt to attack me in a public forum and support people like Harden who who are advancing an agenda that says that Saotoome Sensei has not been teaching real Aiki all these years. I won't have it Hugh. Should we ask Sensei what he thinks of this? Harden has implied violence and has suggested, at a minimum, that he plans to cause trouble for Ikeda and Saotome Senseis at a seminar in the future. Are you on the record to support this man after that challenge? Are you speaking for Gleason Sensei and for your dojo?

Harden has implied violence with the sentence:

"You are wise to make a public statement you are not interested in meeting me." Then tries to cover this up by saying, "While I would greet you in a friendly exchange." Then he implies he'll teach Saotome and Ikeda Senseis a lesson. Do you support this man? Do you do so formally as a representative of your dojo? Would you like to bring this to the attention of Sensei? Let Sensei put me in my place? I challenge you to do so, Hugh.

His full statement is copied below:

"You are wise to make a public statement you are not interested in meeting me. While I would greet you in a friendly exchange, your opinions and your skills, would simply fail you and all you would have left -when it comes to aiki-would be your words. In fact you would be helpless to do aikido on me...at all. Why? You would have to know Ueshiba's aiki in order to do anything to me. And it remains clear, you do not. I will continue to train with the senior staff or your organization, and eventually put hands on Ikeda and Saotome. I will let you know where and when that is. You might want to attend and learn something about what aiki is and can do and what professional behavior is all about. Your behavior is anything but!"

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Hey, just to throw some gas on the fire, I'm at an Ikeda Sensei seminar right this minute (well, earlier today).

He's been doing, guess what, static drills, finding center, unbalancing, showing how to use interior connection to move uke. No big throws, no momentum, no blending if by that you mean matching uke's movement and extending it. Oh, and he says if uke lets himself stay in an unsafe position, you should just punch him. :-)

Think he's got it wrong? We have one more day to go, shall I tell him so?

By the way, I like the Richard Feynman quote. But this is the guy who, when an experimental scientist disproved his favorite theory, said "Let's ignore him. He's a smart guy, he'll figure out he's wrong."

Not long later, the experimental scientist published a retraction.

Last edited by akiy : 11-20-2011 at 08:18 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
 
Old 11-20-2011, 01:59 PM   #585
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Hugh,

Do you claim to be speaking for ASU?

I suggest that you tell Ikeda Sensei that you are using your time with him at the seminar to support people who say he all but lacks Aiki compared to Harden and company. Tell him the things they say or imply about Saotome Sensei. Better yet, show sensei the whole discussion start to finish. Hugh, I challenge you to do so.

You fail to understand at all what Sensei is doing. I have hosted Sensei on two occasions and have had numerous conversations with him about these issues. I have video footage of him discussing these very issues. Ikeda sensei is blending and joining and applying gravity once he has a balance advantage. He is doing so with an internal emphasis. Some of this he learned from Ushiro Sensei. He sees no contradiction. He does not reject the mainstream notion of Aiki to do so. There is nothing that Sensei is doing that contradicts what Saotome Sensei says about Aiki. Ask him if he contradicts Saotome Sensei. Even the statement about punching an uke who stays in a dangerous place is an endorsement of the need for ukemi.

I am sick of people in ASU being pawns for Harden and people like Harden. They reject what Ikeda does as not what they do and now you try to use him in your embrace of them. You will not use Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei in an attempt to attack me in a public forum and support people like Harden who who are advancing an agenda that says that Saotoome Sensei has not been teaching real Aiki all these years. I won't have it Hugh. Should we ask Sensei what he thinks of this? Harden has implied violence and has suggested, at a minimum, that he plans to cause trouble for Ikeda and Saotome Senseis at a seminar in the future. Are you on the record to support this man after that challenge? Are you speaking for Gleason Sensei and for your dojo?
Yes why don't you ask him?
Gleason and many of your own arts Shihan would probably tell you things about me in such strong terms that you would fall over. It is unseemly for me to say it.
Ikeda not only supports what I do and teach, he has expressed an interest in meeting me in writing. His students want us to meet and train together.
Gleason trains with me regularly
George Ledyard does as well
Josh Drackman -the fellow who tranlates for Saotmes books does as well
I have lost track of so many others who are seniors under Saotome, who himself has commented favorably on my work.

Why don't you mind your own business, or at least check things out before you continue to embarrass yourself by demonstrating that you are out of touch with what the higher level shihan are doing.

You can keep trying, eventually you might realize that you simply don't know what you're talking about and the art has moved past you while.... you're standing there trying to figure out what happened to you. You won't be alone though.

As Mochizuki said to Tamaru, prewar-deshi to post-war deshi (which has not been publicly translated to English yet) "What you guys are doing is not the real Aikido."
Which echoes Shioda "They were no longer practicing Ueshiba's Aikido."
Which echoes Ueshiba himself when he walked in to the Modern Dojo. "This is not my Aikido!"
And when he said. "No one is following me."
We can add many others, but you have not demonstrated an ability to comprehend.
Your delusional re-interpretations of my comments into a new language in "Ken-land" and trying to convince hundreds of people here who know me that I am threatening violence, will only serve to continue to separate you from the rest of us folk reading.
I meant what I said. On any level you care to choose your art will fail with me standing in front of you. Every Aikido Shihan (and every other teacher) who has met me has asked to train with me and we have become friends. This without me doing much at all. Why?
Ueshiba's aiki. It's a truth that stands on it's own....on contact.



Quote:
Harden has implied violence with the sentence:

"You are wise to make a public statement you are not interested in meeting me." Then tries to cover this up by saying, "While I would greet you in a friendly exchange." His full statement is copied below:

"You are wise to make a public statement you are not interested in meeting me. While I would greet you in a friendly exchange, your opinions and your skills, would simply fail you and all you would have left -when it comes to aiki-would be your words. In fact you would be helpless to do aikido on me...at all. Why? You would have to know Ueshiba's aiki in order to do anything to me. And it remains clear, you do not. I will continue to train with the senior staff or your organization, and eventually put hands on Ikeda and Saotome. I will let you know where and when that is. You might want to attend and learn something about what aiki is and can do and what professional behavior is all about. Your behavior is anything but!"

Last edited by akiy : 11-20-2011 at 08:18 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
 
Old 11-20-2011, 02:10 PM   #586
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 998
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

I think Hugh has made it abundantly clear that he speaks only for himself. As do I.

As has been pointed out before, you should feel free to take your concerns to Saotome Sensei and/or Ikeda Sensei. From Alabama, ASU Winter Camp in Florida is not so far. Ledyard Sensei will be there as well. You should have ample opportunity to raise your questions, and the so-called "Harden Faction" will be well-represented.

Katherine
 
Old 11-20-2011, 02:15 PM   #587
Ken McGrew
Dojo: Aikido at UAB
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 202
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

This is a matter for Hugh to respond to. I won't have you bury it for him. He has used Ikeda Sensei in an effort to "put fuel on the fire" against what I have written. I'm not having it, Hugh. Why not ask Sensei to put me in my place?

Is it true that Ikeda and Saotome Sensei's can't hold a candle to Harden in terms of Aiki?

Is it true that the things Saotome Sensei wrote and said about Aiki and Aikido were mistaken?

Is it true that Saotome Sensei did not receive much instruction from O Sensei?

Is it true that O Sensei did not teach real Aiki to Saotome and others?

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Hugh,

Do you claim to be speaking for ASU?

I suggest that you tell Ikeda Sensei that you are using your time with him at the seminar to support people who say he all but lacks Aiki compared to Harden and company. Tell him the things they say or imply about Saotome Sensei. Better yet, show sensei the whole discussion start to finish. Hugh, I challenge you to do so.

You fail to understand at all what Sensei is doing. I have hosted Sensei on two occasions and have had numerous conversations with him about these issues. I have private video footage of him discussing these very issues. I have sat and discussed the meaning of Aiki with both Ikeda and Saotome Senseis at the same table. Ikeda sensei is blending and joining and applying gravity once he has a balance advantage. Because you can't see everything that he's doing doesnt mean that its' not there. He is doing so with an internal emphasis. Some of this he learned from Ushiro Sensei. He sees no contradiction. Often what he shows is at the level of exercise. He has shown me the level of application. Blending is always part of this. So is timing. Etc. and so forth. He does not reject the mainstream notion of Aiki to do so. There is nothing that Sensei is doing that contradicts what Saotome Sensei says about Aiki. Ask him if he contradicts Saotome Sensei. Even the statement about punching an uke who stays in a dangerous place is an endorsement of the need for ukemi.

I am sick of a few people in ASU being pawns for Harden and people like Harden, either speaking in support of him or allowing him to claim to speak for them without the courage to do so themselves. Harden and those who defend him reject what Ikeda does as not what they do and now you try to use him in your embrace of them. You will not use Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei in an attempt to attack me in a public forum and support people like Harden who who are advancing an agenda that says that Saotoome Sensei has not been teaching real Aiki all these years. I won't have it Hugh. Should we ask Sensei what he thinks of this? Harden has implied violence and has suggested, at a minimum, that he plans to cause trouble for Ikeda and Saotome Senseis at a seminar in the future. Are you on the record to support this man after that challenge? Are you speaking for Gleason Sensei and for your dojo?

Harden has implied violence with the sentence:

"You are wise to make a public statement you are not interested in meeting me." Then tries to cover this up by saying, "While I would greet you in a friendly exchange." Then he implies he'll teach Saotome and Ikeda Senseis a lesson. Do you support this man? Do you do so formally as a representative of your dojo? Would you like to bring this to the attention of Sensei? Let Sensei put me in my place? I challenge you to do so, Hugh.

His full statement is copied below:

"You are wise to make a public statement you are not interested in meeting me. While I would greet you in a friendly exchange, your opinions and your skills, would simply fail you and all you would have left -when it comes to aiki-would be your words. In fact you would be helpless to do aikido on me...at all. Why? You would have to know Ueshiba's aiki in order to do anything to me. And it remains clear, you do not. I will continue to train with the senior staff or your organization, and eventually put hands on Ikeda and Saotome. I will let you know where and when that is. You might want to attend and learn something about what aiki is and can do and what professional behavior is all about. Your behavior is anything but!"

Last edited by akiy : 11-20-2011 at 08:19 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
 
Old 11-20-2011, 02:21 PM   #588
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
This is a matter for Hugh to respond to. I won't have you bury it for him. He has used Ikeda Sensei in an effort to "put fuel on the fire" against what I have written. I'm not having it, Hugh. Why not ask Sensei to put me in my place.
Listen Fella. I will address you when you attempt to destroy my name.
What I am doing is approved and supported by your teacher and also teachers in the ASU, the Aikikai, the Birenkai, and the under Imaizuma. Not to mention, Daito ryu, Koryu, Karate, Judo, ICMA and others.
And we are making friends and improving the arts.
It seems the only one who doesn't know that....is you.
And there are no Harden followers of any kind. They are teachers in their own arts, separate from me, with strong views, experiences and opinions of their own. Many times they dissagree with me and we have great fun arguing. No one is going to tell these guys what to do or think or say anytime soon. In fact, I find the idea of telling Bill Gleason what to do to be fecking hilarious.
No one is going to answer some of your questions in public. But, good God man are you barking up the wrong tree!!! You have no idea what these men really think and what is really going on. And trust me, you don't really want to know. You couldn't deal with it. You think ...I...am bold!!

Last edited by DH : 11-20-2011 at 02:35 PM.
 
Old 11-20-2011, 02:34 PM   #589
Ken McGrew
Dojo: Aikido at UAB
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 202
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Hugh,

You have allowed these folks to speak as if everything they say is endorsed by Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei (at least when it's convenient). Now you have posted in support of them again, attempting to use Ikeda Sensei to do so, and in an effort to somehow discredit me as completely mistaken in my understanding of Aikido (even though my rank is from Saotome Sensei).
I tried to get away from this thread after the implied threats and the libel (that Jun removed). You added "fuel to the fire." So fine. Let's go, Hugh.

Answer the questions, Hugh. I'm done playing these games. They and you have implied that you speak for ASU and that I misrepresent the teachings of our head instructors. You want to make it about ASU. Fine. This is between us and our head instructors. Answer the questions, Hugh. I won't be distracted by their attempts to deflect. I'll keep asking forever. Have Sensei put me in my place by embracing all that these people, and you, say.

Is it true that Ikeda and Saotome Sensei's can't hold a candle to Harden in terms of Aiki?

Is it true that the things Saotome Sensei wrote and said about Aiki and Aikido were mistaken?

Is it true that Saotome Sensei did not receive much instruction from O Sensei?

Is it true that O Sensei did not teach real Aiki to Saotome and others?

Has Ikeda Sensei rejected the importance of leading, blending, timing, and joining in Aikido?

Does Ikeda Sensei claim to contradict anything that Saotome Sensei has taught?

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Hugh,

Do you claim to be speaking for ASU?

I suggest that you tell Ikeda Sensei that you are using your time with him at the seminar to support people who say he all but lacks Aiki compared to Harden and company. Tell him the things they say or imply about Saotome Sensei. Better yet, show sensei the whole discussion start to finish. Hugh, I challenge you to do so.

You fail to understand at all what Sensei is doing. I have hosted Sensei on two occasions and have had numerous conversations with him about these issues. I have private video footage of him discussing these very issues. I have sat and discussed the meaning of Aiki with both Ikeda and Saotome Senseis at the same table. Ikeda sensei is blending and joining and applying gravity once he has a balance advantage. Because you can't see everything that he's doing doesnt mean that its' not there. He is doing so with an internal emphasis. Some of this he learned from Ushiro Sensei. He sees no contradiction. Often what he shows is at the level of exercise. He has shown me the level of application. Blending is always part of this. So is timing. Etc. and so forth. He does not reject the mainstream notion of Aiki to do so. There is nothing that Sensei is doing that contradicts what Saotome Sensei says about Aiki. Ask him if he contradicts Saotome Sensei. Even the statement about punching an uke who stays in a dangerous place is an endorsement of the need for ukemi.

I am sick of a few people in ASU being pawns for Harden and people like Harden, either speaking in support of him or allowing him to claim to speak for them without the courage to do so themselves. Harden and those who defend him reject what Ikeda does as not what they do and now you try to use him in your embrace of them. You will not use Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei in an attempt to attack me in a public forum and support people like Harden who who are advancing an agenda that says that Saotoome Sensei has not been teaching real Aiki all these years. I won't have it Hugh. Should we ask Sensei what he thinks of this? Harden has implied violence and has suggested, at a minimum, that he plans to cause trouble for Ikeda and Saotome Senseis at a seminar in the future. Are you on the record to support this man after that challenge? Are you speaking for Gleason Sensei and for your dojo?

Harden has implied violence with the sentence:

"You are wise to make a public statement you are not interested in meeting me." Then tries to cover this up by saying, "While I would greet you in a friendly exchange." Then he implies he'll teach Saotome and Ikeda Senseis a lesson. Do you support this man? Do you do so formally as a representative of your dojo? Would you like to bring this to the attention of Sensei? Let Sensei put me in my place? I challenge you to do so, Hugh.

His full statement is copied below:

"You are wise to make a public statement you are not interested in meeting me. While I would greet you in a friendly exchange, your opinions and your skills, would simply fail you and all you would have left -when it comes to aiki-would be your words. In fact you would be helpless to do aikido on me...at all. Why? You would have to know Ueshiba's aiki in order to do anything to me. And it remains clear, you do not. I will continue to train with the senior staff or your organization, and eventually put hands on Ikeda and Saotome. I will let you know where and when that is. You might want to attend and learn something about what aiki is and can do and what professional behavior is all about. Your behavior is anything but!"

Last edited by akiy : 11-20-2011 at 08:20 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
 
Old 11-20-2011, 02:44 PM   #590
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Hugh,
You have allowed these folks to speak as if everything they say is endorsed by Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei (at least when it's convenient). Now you have posted in support of them again, attempting to use Ikeda Sensei to do so, and in an effort to somehow discredit me as completely mistaken in my understanding of Aikido (even though my rank is from Saotome Sensei).
Answer the questions, Hugh. I'm done playing these games. They and you have implied that you speak for ASU and that I misrepresent the teachings of our head instructors. Answer the questions, Hugh. I won't be distracted by their attempts to deflect. I'll keep asking forever. Have Sensei put me in my place by embracing all that these people, and you, say.........

I am sick of a few people in ASU being pawns for Harden and people like Harden, either speaking in support of him or allowing him to claim to speak for them without the courage to do so themselves. Harden and those who defend him reject what Ikeda does as not what they do and now you try to use him in your embrace of them. You will not use Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei in an attempt to attack me in a public forum and support people like Harden who who are advancing an agenda that says that Saotoome Sensei has not been teaching real Aiki all these years. I won't have it Hugh. Should we ask Sensei what he thinks of this? Harden has implied violence and has suggested, at a minimum, that he plans to cause trouble for Ikeda and Saotome Senseis at a seminar in the future. Are you on the record to support this man after that challenge? Are you speaking for Gleason Sensei and for your dojo?.....

Harden has implied violence with the sentence:

"You are wise to make a public statement you are not interested in meeting me." Then tries to cover this up by saying, "While I would greet you in a friendly exchange." Then he implies he'll teach Saotome and Ikeda Senseis a lesson. Do you support this man? Do you do so formally as a representative of your dojo? Would you like to bring this to the attention of Sensei? Let Sensei put me in my place? I challenge you to do so, Hugh.
I see you are still twisting my words to mean something completely different than what I said! The disconnect is truly revealing.

We speak boldly because we can.
Bill supports everything I have said and Hugh has said, and is far...far...oh good God...so much more strident and strong in support of this in very clear and definitive terms. Terms that I would never write here or use about myself.
You poor kid. You really have no idea of what you are in the middle of.
There is no contention, fella. It's all a big, grand, community effort bigger than the ASU, and everyone is having fun.
You are defending a view that they will not defend...they are on my side. You don't understand the work very well, or the nature of their work and mine and how it fits seemlessly. There is nothing to defend, and you're looking the fool in trying to do so by attacking people out of hand in a meandering, disconnected delusional fashion.
Forget Hugh. He's covered and he knows it.
There are things you say in public and others you handle behind the scene. A man chosen to teach represents more than himself. The real question for you, is whether Saotome and Ikeda would ever support what you are presently doing and saying here as a representative of their art.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-20-2011 at 02:59 PM.
 
Old 11-20-2011, 03:54 PM   #591
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote:
You will not use Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei in an attempt to attack me in a public forum and support people like Harden who who are advancing an agenda that says that Saotoome Sensei has not been teaching real Aiki all these years. I won't have it Hugh. Harden has implied violence and has suggested, at a minimum, that he plans to cause trouble for Ikeda and Saotome Senseis at a seminar in the future. Are you on the record to support this man after that challenge? Are you speaking for Gleason Sensei and for your dojo?.....

Harden has implied violence with the sentence:
"You are wise to make a public statement you are not interested in meeting me." Then tries to cover this up by saying, "While I would greet you in a friendly exchange." Then he implies he'll teach Saotome and Ikeda Senseis a lesson. Do you support this man? Do you do so formally as a representative of your dojo? Would you like to bring this to the attention of Sensei? Let Sensei put me in my place? I challenge you to do so, Hugh.
This is just incredible eh folks?
Let's see
I have spoken in favor of both Saotome and Ikeda for years now-in the presence of teachers under other branches!
I have spoken all over the states and in Europe in favor of them- compared to other Japanese Shihan- in public rooms full of Aikido people who are members here.
So....
1. Please step up to the podium once more and address the thousand or more people here who have heard me speak in public and read what I have placed here, particularly regarding Ikeda.
Why am I going to give them a hard time?
And
2. In "Ken-land" just how does my "offering to meet you in a friendly exchange.." translate to me and my "followers practicing violence."
I will keep in mind that I have never once in my life did what you suggest, yet last year several of your teachers thought it just grand to have an uninvited BJJer jump me at one of my own seminars and try to cold cock me with a right hook and thought what I did to him was just great!! This is the second time this has happened to me, and they expected me to handle it without hurting him.
I cannot begin to think what would have happened were I Saotome giving a seminar on aiki.
So please bear in mind I am now educated in seminar-do. This is the type of equanimity I have been taught to expect. Therefore, please feel free to say whatever you want. So far your misquotes to make me sound awful, pale in comparison to what I have read from those interested in attacking me personally in a myriad of ways on Aikiweb.
Threatening to sue me
Threatening to sue Dojo that host me
Calling me a liar
Spreading unsupported (non researched) lies repeatedly
Calling me a Con man
A snake oil Salesman
Even discussing how much I make

All while your arts teachers say the grandest things; to me....and about me... behind closed doors!!
So, not to worry. Don't hold back. You can expound to grand heights. Please, feel free to go at it. Maybe even talk about my family to boot.
At this point, nothing is going to surprise me.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-20-2011 at 04:00 PM.
 
Old 11-20-2011, 04:01 PM   #592
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,162
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Listen Fella. I will address you when you attempt to destroy my name.
What I am doing is approved and supported by your teacher and also teachers in the ASU, the Aikikai, the Birenkai, and the under Imaizuma. Not to mention, Daito ryu, Koryu, Karate, Judo, ICMA and others.
And we are making friends and improving the arts.
It seems the only one who doesn't know that....is you.
And there are no Harden followers of any kind. They are teachers in their own arts, separate from me, with strong views, experiences and opinions of their own. Many times they dissagree with me and we have great fun arguing. No one is going to tell these guys what to do or think or say anytime soon. In fact, I find the idea of telling Bill Gleason what to do to be fecking hilarious.
No one is going to answer some of your questions in public. But, good God man are you barking up the wrong tree!!! You have no idea what these men really think and what is really going on. And trust me, you don't really want to know. You couldn't deal with it. You think ...I...am bold!!
Dear Dan,
Out of curiosity would you care to name the Birankai teachers who have met you? Hope you are well.Cheers, Joe.
 
Old 11-20-2011, 04:14 PM   #593
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 998
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
I am sick of a few people in ASU being pawns for Harden and people like Harden, either speaking in support of him or allowing him to claim to speak for them without the courage to do so themselves.
Hahahahahahahahaha.... That's funny.

If you had ever been in the same room with Gleason Sensei or Ledyard Sensei for more than about ten minutes you would realize just how ridiculous it is to suggest that either of them is *anybody's* pawn.

ROFL.

Katherine
 
Old 11-20-2011, 04:17 PM   #594
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Hugh,

Do you claim to be speaking for ASU?

I suggest that you tell Ikeda Sensei that you are using your time with him at the seminar to support people who say he all but lacks Aiki compared to Harden and company. Tell him the things they say or imply about Saotome Sensei. Better yet, show sensei the whole discussion start to finish. Hugh, I challenge you to do so.
You know, someone in ASU should *please* tell Ledyard, Ikeda, Gleason, and Saotome about you. I sincerely hope that they do. It's truly amazing that you have stated that you have read the previous posts but yet have somehow not read the glowing recommendations that I, and others, have heaped upon Ikeda, Ledyard, Gleason, and Saotome.

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
You fail to understand at all what Sensei is doing.
and

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
I am sick of a few people in ASU being pawns for Harden and people like Harden
Will you please stop degrading people, their abilities, and their characters. While we are at it, will you please stop misrepresenting the views of others. You have been told several times that your understanding of our views is completely and utterly wrong. I fail to understand why you continue with the same rhetoric when we keep answering you that our views are not what you are presenting.

This thread is about Ueshiba's aiki. Please keep to the subject of the thread. If you truly wish an open venue, there is a forum here called "Open Discussions". Start a thread there for off topic conversation, but please keep it civil.

Mark
 
Old 11-20-2011, 04:19 PM   #595
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Dan,
Out of curiosity would you care to name the Birankai teachers who have met you? Hope you are well.Cheers, Joe.
After the how much money I make thread you started, can you think of any reason at all I should talk to you?

Even those who don't like me thought it an outrage.
It did help to once again clarify and put me in my place here as well as understand the fluidity of what no personal attacks means to all of you.

Ellis was right in urging me to teach publicly. I have met and formed friendships with some incredible Aikido teachers and Budo-ka in general.
But...in Aikido and aikido alone.... it has also taught me the type of equanimity I should expect. I will not make the same mistakes I did before.
MMA is far....far...more respectful of each other. If you are the 600lb. gorilla in the room..they're smart enough to listen. Aiki arts -DR included-do with words, what they cannot do with their bodies.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-20-2011 at 04:30 PM.
 
Old 11-20-2011, 04:22 PM   #596
Ken McGrew
Dojo: Aikido at UAB
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 202
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Hugh,

Are you going to answer the questions like a real Budo Man? Or was your post just a pot shot because you thought I was gone. Will you allow Harden and others to attempt to answer for you? I'll repeat the questions, Hugh:

Is it true that Ikeda and Saotome Sensei's can't hold a candle to Harden in terms of Aiki?

Is it true that the things Saotome Sensei wrote and said about Aiki and Aikido were mistaken?

Is it true that Saotome Sensei did not receive much instruction from O Sensei?

Is it true that O Sensei did not teach real Aiki to Saotome and others?

Has Ikeda Sensei rejected the importance of leading, blending, timing, and joining in Aikido?

Does Ikeda Sensei claim to contradict anything that Saotome Sensei has taught?

Is it true that leading, blending, body positioning, and joining as a means to unbalance Uke are mere tricks? Does Ikeda Sensei agree? Does Saotome Sensei?

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Hugh,

You have allowed these folks to speak as if everything they say is endorsed by Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei (at least when it's convenient). Now you have posted in support of them again, attempting to use Ikeda Sensei to do so, and in an effort to somehow discredit me as completely mistaken in my understanding of Aikido (even though my rank is from Saotome Sensei).
I tried to get away from this thread after the implied threats and the libel (that Jun removed). You added "fuel to the fire." So fine. Let's go, Hugh.

Answer the questions, Hugh. I'm done playing these games. They and you have implied that you speak for ASU and that I misrepresent the teachings of our head instructors. You want to make it about ASU. Fine. This is between us and our head instructors. Answer the questions, Hugh. I won't be distracted by their attempts to deflect. I'll keep asking forever. Have Sensei put me in my place by embracing all that these people, and you, say.

Is it true that Ikeda and Saotome Sensei's can't hold a candle to Harden in terms of Aiki?

Is it true that the things Saotome Sensei wrote and said about Aiki and Aikido were mistaken?

Is it true that Saotome Sensei did not receive much instruction from O Sensei?

Is it true that O Sensei did not teach real Aiki to Saotome and others?

Has Ikeda Sensei rejected the importance of leading, blending, timing, and joining in Aikido?

Does Ikeda Sensei claim to contradict anything that Saotome Sensei has taught?

Last edited by akiy : 11-20-2011 at 08:21 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
 
Old 11-20-2011, 04:30 PM   #597
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

That was a short silence.
 
Old 11-20-2011, 04:44 PM   #598
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

I can only hope that when the senior people from the ASU get together for the their winter camp in Florida next month, they sit down with Ikeda Sensei and Saotome Sensei and clear this situation up. It would also be nice if Jun could either have Ken stick to the original topic, take a time out, or simply shut-up. His distorted, venom is a sad and frankly irrelevant in all aspects of things.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 11-20-2011, 04:47 PM   #599
Fred Little
Dojo: NJIT Budokai
Location: State Line NJ/NY
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 614
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
That was a short silence.
"SSSHHHHHH! I'm hunting wabbits!"

 
Old 11-20-2011, 04:55 PM   #600
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
"SSSHHHHHH! I'm hunting wabbits!"
Fred:

As you sure that you are ejucated enuf to be hunten them wabbits?



Marc Abrams
 

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido of Northern VA Seminars - Doran-sensei in Northern Virginia, March 2015



Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 18 Peter Goldsbury Columns 187 09-08-2011 03:41 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 17 Peter Goldsbury Columns 41 06-03-2010 10:46 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 14 Peter Goldsbury Columns 38 08-01-2009 12:19 AM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 10 Peter Goldsbury Columns 200 02-04-2009 07:45 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:07 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate