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Old 11-18-2011, 06:26 AM   #51
SeiserL
 
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Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
I think that some posters were reluctant to jump headlong at addressing domestic violence. So as you would expect with martial artists, the responses turned into "hear the sound of one hand clapping" type responses that Kung Fu master would tell to Grasshoppper. Sounds poetic, but it lacks substance.
Yes agreed.

DV is not poetic.

Perhaps the sound of the hand slapping is up the back of our heads saying that it will take a lot more that jumping headlong into a forum discussion to address it and violence.

If you want to address DV, show up at the local shelter and look into their eyes. I cannot put that into words.

Welcome to my world.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-18-2011, 07:06 AM   #52
genin
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Re: The Truth about Violence

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Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Question is then is the abused able to prepare himself when already intimidated and 'under control of the abuser'. I feel it is critically important that people recognise the situation as early as possible and act accordingly, but people are strange creatures....love and hate are only two sides of the same coin, separated by virtually nothing.
Obviously, DV victims are not able or prepared to defend themselves, otherwise they would do so. I suppose some do escape it, and some do fight back, but yet there are still many who succumb to the control and abuse.

It comes down to the way people handle things on an individual basis. I can only be accountable for me. And I know I won't ever fall victim to DV. I practice martial arts and self-defense and I some times teach others, as well as share tips and insights online. But people, being differential beings, won't always be concerned with these issues. They'll turn a blind eye or be ignorant to the prevailing reality. For some, it's a bad choice which leads them there. For others, it's simply bad luck. The key is to be accountable for yourself and be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
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Old 11-18-2011, 07:13 AM   #53
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Re: The Truth about Violence

On a personal note: my other left abusive situation (alcohol) when she was pregnant with me. To day she sometimes wonders what her life (and mine) would have been like had she stayed. That is over 40 years ago after successful remarriage and another son in this world. She did indeed leave without notice (from Italy to Netherlands) and arrived at her parents home, much to their surprise (mind you pregnant and all).
In Italy a family member with no legs (always on bed) terrorised his wife. My mother never understood why she did not leave: as the man had no legs to follow her! Still, she stayed and got regular beating....This glimpse of a possible future was not the future my mother had in mind and she did leave...

Love and hate sometimes go hand in hand and blur peoples judgement.
Respect to people like Lynn that work on this problem daily

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 11-18-2011, 11:22 AM   #54
graham christian
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Re: The Truth about Violence

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
What you are saying is equivalent to: to solve a problem (any problem) it is just a
matter of making it not a problem. This statement is as correct as it is useless. It's a tautology.
Not so. This statement is very correct. Yes you can also and indeed must go through a process of making a problem no longer a problem if you wan't to solve it.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-18-2011, 11:46 AM   #55
graham christian
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Re: The Truth about Violence

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Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Yes agreed.

DV is not poetic.

Perhaps the sound of the hand slapping is up the back of our heads saying that it will take a lot more that jumping headlong into a forum discussion to address it and violence.

If you want to address DV, show up at the local shelter and look into their eyes. I cannot put that into words.

Welcome to my world.
Hi Lynn. Ah so that's your world. Interesting. I have addressed DV. on numerous occasions as maybe have many. I take it you are a counsellor. Hopefully a successful one.

I have just been handling one and to a successful completion.

The shelter quote above I don't get unless you are saying you feel people should have more reality before talking about it.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-18-2011, 12:08 PM   #56
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Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Not so. This statement is very correct. Yes you can also and indeed must go through a process of making a problem no longer a problem if you wan't to solve it.

Regards.G.
I did not say it was incorrect

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Old 11-18-2011, 12:10 PM   #57
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Re: The Truth about Violence

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John Butz wrote: View Post
Might I recomend that folks interested in some of the psychology of why people find it so hard to remove themselves from violent situations, and the general societal mindset of violence, check out "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker?

I found this to be a fascinating and incredibly interesting look at how society conditions us to treat violence (domestic, sexual predation, even assasination and sudden criminal violence) in certain ways, how we misconcieve of what the real indicators of violence are due to societal conditioning, and how we discount our own intuition. The book absolutely changed how I view violence and how I view the victims of violence, specifically folks in abusive situations,the survivors, and even the abusers and perpetrators of violent acts.

I think it is a must-read for everyone, to be honest. The issues DeBecker touches on are very germane to this thread, and specifcly to Mr. Flatley's statements about how people should be easily able to recognize a bad situation and get out of it with just a little common sense. I used to hold a similar view, but as I learn more about the realities of these things, I must say that the issues are far more complex than outside observers might think that they are.
This sounds interesting, just ordered the book. Thanks

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Old 11-18-2011, 12:36 PM   #58
graham christian
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Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I did not say it was incorrect
You did not?
Quote:
This statement is as correct as it is useless.
Have I misread it?

G.

Last edited by akiy : 11-18-2011 at 12:48 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 11-18-2011, 01:35 PM   #59
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
I think that some posters were reluctant to jump headlong at addressing domestic violence. So as you would expect with martial artists, the responses turned into "hear the sound of one hand clapping" type responses that Kung Fu master would tell to Grasshoppper. Sounds poetic, but it lacks substance.

I agree that cultivating peace in our own lives, and applying that to all we encounter, is one way to prevent and defeat violence. Combatting violence with violence has historically not produced desired results. All it does is raise the body count, meanwhile the root issues remain unchanged.

A half million dead soldiers weren't enough to give blacks in America their civil rights. It wasn't until a few unarmed men protested with non-violence 100 years later, that the battle was finally won. And as far as I know, the victors never fired a single shot. That should tell you something.
An over simplification of the course of events as they evolved over approximately 100 years and two generations. It is not that easy to say that non-violence is always the solution and will always work. There are conditions that must be in place in order for non-violence to be successful.

You cannot simply isolate and break the linkage between the 1860s and the civil war and the events that occurred in the1960s and say "see...fighting did not work, and non-violence did." Given the conditions of the 1860s Polictical, Military, Economic, Social, and Institutional....I would guess that the non-violent movement would have not been effective at all. First, it could get no legs under it.

Without the conditions created by the civil war, the emancipation proclamation would not have been possible or enforceable......etc, etc....fighting the war, ending the war, and reconstruction was all apart of a long process that led to the empowerment of many individuals and eventually created conditions which allowed for the civil rights movement to be effective.

Fighitng and war, while not ideal are a fact. Force and power in the form of violence can be an effective solution to given conditions. However, it must be followed by other events that in effect heal and reconcile.

Study history and look at the history of World War II and MacArthur's strategy in Japan and how that was handled. War must always be accompanied by diplomacy in order for it to be successful.

Violence, war, and all that...just are not as simple as we would like it to be.

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Old 11-18-2011, 02:12 PM   #60
John A Butz
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Re: The Truth about Violence

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
This sounds interesting, just ordered the book. Thanks
David, I hope you find it to be a worthwhile read.
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Old 11-18-2011, 03:18 PM   #61
genin
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Re: The Truth about Violence

Last night I began hearing commotion from a neighbors apartment. Then my apartment started shaking from someone repeatedly slamming their door as hard as possible. It was extemely loud and unsettling, to the point that I became alarmed. It was obvious to me that someone was causing trouble and didn't care who heard it. Could've been a burglar kicking doors in, I didn't know. So I had to defend my dwelling.
As a result of another recent incident, I keep shuriken on my coffee table for personal protection. It only took me a few seconds to jump up, grab the ninja stars, and run out the door. Boy, my adrenaline was racing. My intent was to let whoever was out there know that I was now out there too. So without saying a word, I clanked my cold steel shuriken together. It seemed to get really quiet, then I heard a man on the level below me sniffling, lock his door, then walk off down the stars. Maybe he was the one, and he was fighting with his girl or something, I don't know. Nothing really happened at that point, so it was otherwise uneventful.
I guess the point of this story is how you respond to threats--fight or flight. In a way, I put myself in harms way. But I also pre-empted the situation from escalating on the perpetrator's terms. This is a critical piece of the equation. He was no longer free to act a fool and take this to the next level, without at least first acknowledging that someone with conspicious metalic objects was right around the corner.
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Old 11-18-2011, 07:19 PM   #62
sorokod
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Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
Last night I began hearing commotion from a neighbors apartment. Then my apartment started shaking from someone repeatedly slamming their door as hard as possible. It was extemely loud and unsettling, to the point that I became alarmed. It was obvious to me that someone was causing trouble and didn't care who heard it. Could've been a burglar kicking doors in, I didn't know. So I had to defend my dwelling.
As a result of another recent incident, I keep shuriken on my coffee table for personal protection. It only took me a few seconds to jump up, grab the ninja stars, and run out the door. Boy, my adrenaline was racing. My intent was to let whoever was out there know that I was now out there too. So without saying a word, I clanked my cold steel shuriken together. It seemed to get really quiet, then I heard a man on the level below me sniffling, lock his door, then walk off down the stars. Maybe he was the one, and he was fighting with his girl or something, I don't know. Nothing really happened at that point, so it was otherwise uneventful.
I guess the point of this story is how you respond to threats--fight or flight. In a way, I put myself in harms way. But I also pre-empted the situation from escalating on the perpetrator's terms. This is a critical piece of the equation. He was no longer free to act a fool and take this to the next level, without at least first acknowledging that someone with conspicious metalic objects was right around the corner.
Unleased your inner ape, didn't you?

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Old 11-19-2011, 01:24 PM   #63
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
Last night I began hearing commotion from a neighbors apartment. Then my apartment started shaking from someone repeatedly slamming their door as hard as possible. It was extemely loud and unsettling, to the point that I became alarmed. It was obvious to me that someone was causing trouble and didn't care who heard it. Could've been a burglar kicking doors in, I didn't know. So I had to defend my dwelling.
Or ... Your uncertainty regarding your environment combined with your personal insecurities got you all worked up while the next door neighbor was throwing a temper tantrum.
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:35 PM   #64
genin
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Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
Or ... Your uncertainty regarding your environment combined with your personal insecurities got you all worked up while the next door neighbor was throwing a temper tantrum.
Pretty much! Though I look at it as a test--one which I passed.

I heard a woman today say something about how she is very anti-confrontational about everything. This is how victims think, but it comes only from a place of weakness. Fear of the uncertain, fear of conflict, fear of violence, fear of change, fear of looking bad, and a fear of FEAR itself. And trust me, when these people are tested in life they will completey shut down. This is the same woman who would quietly murmur "Please don't kill me" as her kidnapper drags her off to rape and murder her.

I mean, I can understand the mindset. Because if you can always avoid conflict, then you'll never be forced to deal with it, and you won't require the physical or mental skills to do so. But when you are finally forced to deal with conflict, yet you've based your whole life around avoiding it, then you've set yourself up for failure.
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Old 11-22-2011, 02:47 PM   #65
Rob Watson
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Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
I keep shuriken
Outside of the dojo that stuff lands us in jail over in our neck of the woods ...

Grabbing weapons in your story is escalation. Escalation is antithesis to aikido, no? Maybe they were just remodelling the restroom ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:54 PM   #66
genin
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Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Outside of the dojo that stuff lands us in jail over in our neck of the woods ...

Grabbing weapons in your story is escalation. Escalation is antithesis to aikido, no? Maybe they were just remodelling the restroom ...
I learned in a self-defense class to defend yourself first, then worry about dealing with the legalities of your actions later. There's truth in that statement if you know how to combine it with common sense.

Someone once said that aikido teaches us HOW to respond. Grabbing the shuriken was how I responded to a perceived threat. Would an aikidoka have responded the same why I did in my particular situation? Who knows. At least I responded, and at least it ended favorably for me and my would-be enemy.

The door slamming has continued it seems, albeit not as loud as that first time. I'm thinking it's probably just a really inconsiderate tenant. St

Last edited by genin : 11-22-2011 at 04:58 PM.
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Old 11-22-2011, 06:44 PM   #67
Belt_Up
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Re: The Truth about Violence

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Would an aikidoka have responded the same why (sic) I did in my particular situation?
I can guarantee that no, an aikidoka would not have picked up a pair of shuriken and raced to confront someone slamming a door.
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Old 11-22-2011, 06:56 PM   #68
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: The Truth about Violence

Shuriken?

You didn't had something better at hand?
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Old 11-22-2011, 07:39 PM   #69
graham christian
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Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
I learned in a self-defense class to defend yourself first, then worry about dealing with the legalities of your actions later. There's truth in that statement if you know how to combine it with common sense.

Someone once said that aikido teaches us HOW to respond. Grabbing the shuriken was how I responded to a perceived threat. Would an aikidoka have responded the same why I did in my particular situation? Who knows. At least I responded, and at least it ended favorably for me and my would-be enemy.

The door slamming has continued it seems, albeit not as loud as that first time. I'm thinking it's probably just a really inconsiderate tenant. St
Were you under attack? Not worrying about legalities seems to preclude the use of common sense.

Plus a perceived threat, that's different to an imagined one.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:37 PM   #70
Janet Rosen
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Re: The Truth about Violence

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Were you under attack? Not worrying about legalities seems to preclude the use of common sense.

Plus a perceived threat, that's different to an imagined one.

Regards.G.
Agree.
Another tenant slamming doors at their own apt? Nope, this almost lifelong apt. dweller wouldn't perceive that as a personal threat requiring me to leave my own apt. Just keep an ear out and be ready to call 911.

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:15 PM   #71
Nathan Wallace
 
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Re: The Truth about Violence

Mr. Flatley,
I would highly recommend you take the time to visit the International Hoplology Society's website

http://hoplology.com/about.htm

and read all the articles you can.

Specifically-

http://hoplology.com/articles_detail.asp?id=14

http://hoplology.com/articles_detail.asp?id=12

http://hoplology.com/articles_detail.asp?id=3

You might find them interesting and helpful.

Northern Virginia Tenshinkai Aikido
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:17 PM   #72
kewms
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Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
I learned in a self-defense class to defend yourself first, then worry about dealing with the legalities of your actions later. There's truth in that statement if you know how to combine it with common sense.
Sure. So what was the attack against which you were defending yourself, again?

Katherine
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Old 11-23-2011, 07:04 AM   #73
genin
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Re: The Truth about Violence

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Sure. So what was the attack against which you were defending yourself, again?

Katherine
My apartment sounded like it was under attack. While that may sound strange, that is literally what it sounded like. And since I live there, I had to defend it. Also, there was another recent incident prior to that wherein an individual tried to gain unauthorized access to my apartment while I was there sleeping. That prompted me to set my shuriken out in case it happened again. And it was either shuriken or a katana, so you tell me which one is more discrete.
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Old 11-23-2011, 01:24 PM   #74
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Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
My apartment sounded like it was under attack. While that may sound strange, that is literally what it sounded like. And since I live there, I had to defend it.
And had your apartment *actually* been under attack, you would have been perfectly justified in doing so. (At least in the US.) But it wasn't. Once you verified that, any action taken after you stepped into the hall would not have been "self-defense."

Personally, I would choose the katana over shuriken, precisely because it would *not* be discreet. If you're going to bring a weapon into the situation at all, overwhelmingly superior force gives you the best chance of *not* needing to actually use it.

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 11-23-2011 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 11-23-2011, 02:04 PM   #75
genin
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Re: The Truth about Violence

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Personally, I would choose the katana over shuriken, precisely because it would *not* be discreet. If you're going to bring a weapon into the situation at all, overwhelmingly superior force gives you the best chance of *not* needing to actually use it.
Katherine
I'd rather have the security of having the weapon concealed and my enemy not know I was armed. Because at any moment I could reveal the weapon in order to intimidate him. Until then, I retain the element of surprise. Plus, you never know who is carrying a gun nowadays. You run out the door with a katana in your hands, that's a good way to get shot on the spot!
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