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Old 11-17-2011, 01:42 PM   #526
Gary David
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Howard Prior wrote: View Post
What was it, please?
Howard
My bad...I was mixing stories and sources.....was reminded by another that what I was remembering was not the case.......Hey...it has been 30 years ago and a lot miles since I last talked to Terry..
Gary
 
Old 11-17-2011, 01:48 PM   #527
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Do you have training in historical analysis? I do. I don't intend to teach you for free. You need to go get a Ph.D. if you are going to play historian. I am not interested in all the work that would be involved in undermining your agenda and efforts to support it based on your historical research. Others will. If you want to do a good job you will have to deal with ALL of the available evidence. I can tell you, here's a hint, that personal narratives (like diaries) carry a great deal of weight in historical analysis. More so than edited newspaper articles.
Mr McGrew, you have no methodological reason for the arrogance you display. I should think that personal narratives may carry weight when you research personal experience, but when you are trying to establish a higher degree of facticity of events, personal narratives are known to be quite unreliable unless backed up by other sources, which you dont have. The mere fact that you make the sweeping statements you make is not exactly reassuring regarding the quality of the training you are claiming.

For the record, I have differed with Mark on historical method on more than one occasion, and no, I do not think his evidence is academically sound, but it is a lot better than your claims to Saotome Sensei's memory.

Last edited by Nicholas Eschenbruch : 11-17-2011 at 01:54 PM. Reason: last sentence
 
Old 11-17-2011, 01:52 PM   #528
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Inue hated Takeda. Interestngly, there are other favorable reports statng that Deguchi was quite taken by Takeda's aiki, so much so that he suggested Taked change the name of his art.
Dan
Let me say it again:

Quote:
On the origins of the usage of the "aiki" term, there are various narratives around, one of the most interesting is this one:
Clearer now?

 
Old 11-17-2011, 02:10 PM   #529
DH
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Dan. You mention someone doing power displays and that you do these things and that his isn't aiki. That sounds like you do 'power' displays also then. Aiki wise. Does he say yours is Aiki and if so what does he call his?

The demos you describe show what? Effectiveness of your aiki? (I assume so) However I don't see it as significant or unusual myself. Maybe 'out there' it is.

For instance, lifting someone up back to their feet from kokyu dosa. When you say power display equalling collision of forces are you implying you havn't met anyone who can do that without such?

Sword tricks. Are you saying you havn't met anyone who can cut through your sword held as you describe?

Regards.G.
Hello Graham
I always call it IP/aiki. Internal power or strength is created from a balance of ki in yourself. From there you create aiki between you and someone else.
A quick study of that is Ueshiba's discussion of Heaven/earth/man. Where he notes that after you can manifest the energy between heaven and earth staning on the golden bridge do you release the mountain echo.
This is a well known concept and has to do with a balance of opposites and what it does to your body to remove slack and be full and stand suspended, thus any force-in "echos" back-out. Kuzushi on contact that can then be manipulated.

I am not much for tricks. Once you know how these things work there are many ways to display them. Some prefer to use power displays. I occasionally do that too. But power displays while profound and exceptional (and Ark is very good) are not where I am at. I prefer a softer approach-don't show them your power and dissolve their strength while entering in. Ark can do more than those videos show. We are only discussing what he chose to show in a particular video.

Quote:
For instance, lifting someone up back to their feet from kokyu dosa. When you say power display equalling collision of forces are you implying you havn't met anyone who can do that without such?
Yes I have-not in Aikido though.
Again it is more important not to get hung up on individuals. There are others who can do these things, some accent one type of work others do another, some are better than others. The real question is where are we and what are our skills. To be in an aiki art and to demonstrate a profound lack of understanding, and any real ability to display these high level skills is simply sad.
Dan
 
Old 11-17-2011, 02:13 PM   #530
DH
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Interestingly it was the Shihan that Stan trained with who revealed that Ueshiba was not a daily presence at Hombu. I know someone else who personally trained there who echoe's that same comment, and also said when he showed up training would change and they would begin....pushing on each other.
So I guess Mr McGrew is calling Stan Pranin and a veritable host of Aikido's shihan all liars.
Poo poo Mr. McGrew.
Dan
I meant to say this
Interestingly it was the Shihan that Stan trained with and interviewed from all over Japan who revealed that Ueshiba was not a daily presence at Hombu. I know someone else who personally trained there who echoe's that same comment, and also said when he showed up, training would change and they would begin....pushing on each other.
Stan was the one who originally was shocked to find this out. Did he have an agenda too Mr. McGrew? He was also stunned to find out about Daito ryu and Ueshiba's true training history. All you have to do is ask him.

So I guess Mr McGrew is calling Stan Pranin and a veritable host of Aikido's shihan all liars who somehow had diverse but similar agenda's. Isn't that a bit ridiculous?
Poo poo Mr. McGrew.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-17-2011 at 02:23 PM.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 02:22 PM   #531
Fred Little
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Do you have training in historical analysis? I do. I don't intend to teach you for free. You need to go get a Ph.D. if you are going to play historian. I am not interested in all the work that would be involved in undermining your agenda and efforts to support it based on your historical research. Others will. If you want to do a good job you will have to deal with ALL of the available evidence. I can tell you, here's a hint, that personal narratives (like diaries) carry a great deal of weight in historical analysis. More so than edited newspaper articles..
Dr. McGrew:

With all due respect, you really don't want to go there. The historiographic record furnishes abundant evidence of signal contributions made by individuals with no formal training. Moreover, you are entering a highly contested field on which you are far from the only individual with formal training in historical theory and method.

Broadly speaking: While personal narratives carry personal weight in some instances, any consideration of such narratives also demands the examination of the reliability of the narrator(s), both with regard to questions of fact and with regard to the presence of personal, partisan, or sectarian agendas which have gone into the formation of that narrative, and the relative level of prominence and emphasis given to those facts which are not disputed.

Even in a Western context, public examination of such questions can be very uncomfortable for those narrators, and they may not be terribly kindly disposed to the individual who caused such an examination to take place. In a Japanese context, dominated as the practice of history is by in-group hagiography, the tension between orthodox narrative and open empirical inquiry is much greater.

This is a matter worthy of consideration, as is the question of whether you wish to put your professional credentials as an academic on the line in an argument about competing sectarian narratives, when you have already provided quite a bit of evidence that you have already picked a side, as distinct from taking a stance as a disinterested historical observer engaged in historical reasoning and analysis.

I would respectfully request that you give the above remarks serious consideration.

Best regards,

FL

 
Old 11-17-2011, 02:30 PM   #532
DH
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Good God, Fred.
Well done. I got your P.M. years ago as you mentioned in #4 on your list. It only goes to prove that few can be accomplished in all things. I accept defeat!!
Dan
 
Old 11-17-2011, 02:32 PM   #533
Fred Little
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Good God, Fred.
Well done. I got your P.M. years ago as you mentioned in #4 on your list. It only goes to prove that few can be accomplished in all things. I accept defeat!!
Dan
Dude, you're the one getting plane tickets to Hawaii. If that's defeat, I could use a taste.

FL

 
Old 11-17-2011, 02:41 PM   #534
DH
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Dude, you're the one getting plane tickets to Hawaii. If that's defeat, I could use a taste.

FL
Well there is a special place in life when your son says "Dad, you're brilliant, but you need an editor!!"
Or worse when he was seventeen and it suddenly dawned on him "Dad!! Oh my God...you're a nerd!"
Yes, yes. Things that make you all warm and fuzzy inside. I go to Hawaii to console myself and face my many failings.......
It works!
SCUBA!!
Sorry I lost track. I just like saying it. Forgive me.
SCUBA!!
Oops, there it is again!
Bye bye
Dan
 
Old 11-17-2011, 02:47 PM   #535
hughrbeyer
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I wonder if Takeda leaving Ueshiba crying in the corner helped Ueshiba develop Aikido as I understand it.
I don't believe the "crying in a corner" story at all. It came from a Takeda partisan passed, passed down through several people. Kisshomaru, I believe, has his own story of their meeting and I don't believe that one either. I think the plain story is interesting enough: young budo wanna-be meets master who knocks his tabi off. Life is transformed. History is made. No snark necessary.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 03:07 PM   #536
gregstec
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post

You and company have an agenda. Do you have training in historical analysis? I do. I don't intend to teach you for free. You need to go get a Ph.D. if you are going to play historian. I am not interested in all the work that would be involved in undermining your agenda and efforts to support it based on your historical research. Others will. If you want to do a good job you will have to deal with ALL of the available evidence. I can tell you, here's a hint, that personal narratives (like diaries) carry a great deal of weight in historical analysis. More so than edited newspaper articles.
Ken, just stop with the group insults. Previously you requested that insults stop, for the most part they have, and I apologized for any part of what I may have said that may have offended you. However, you continue with personal and group insults - Just stop it - it comes across immature and unprofessional - if you have an issue with an individual, go toe to toe with them, but leave the rest of us out of it - period.

This may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone that has jumped in here to disagree with you has trained with Dan; some have and some have not - even tough it may appear to you that it is some type of group conspiracy with an agenda against you, that is just not the case; it truly is just independent opinions with similar viewpoints addressing your various arguments.

Just a little piece of advise if I may - if you tone down your style here, you just may get a little less push on some topics as you are getting at the moment - take a clue from my good friend Graham, in my opinion, most of his posts are pretty whacky and our views on Aiki are at different ends of the spectrum - however, he conducts himself in a professional and calm manner and that allows for discussion - even though we rarely agree with one another, we respect each other and carry on accordingly.

FWIW

Greg
 
Old 11-17-2011, 03:13 PM   #537
kewms
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
This may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone that has jumped in here to disagree with you has trained with Dan; some have and some have not - even tough it may appear to you that it is some type of group conspiracy with an agenda against you, that is just not the case; it truly is just independent opinions with similar viewpoints addressing your various arguments.
Indeed. And the internal strength/aiki community is at least as fragmented and full of disagreements as the aikido community itself. It isn't that people are refusing to give straight answers, it is that they all have different points of view. The requested clarity simply isn't going to happen in this venue.

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 11-17-2011 at 03:16 PM.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 03:13 PM   #538
graham christian
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hello Graham
I always call it IP/aiki. Internal power or strength is created from a balance of ki in yourself. From there you create aiki between you and someone else.
A quick study of that is Ueshiba's discussion of Heaven/earth/man. Where he notes that after you can manifest the energy between heaven and earth staning on the golden bridge do you release the mountain echo.
This is a well known concept and has to do with a balance of opposites and what it does to your body to remove slack and be full and stand suspended, thus any force-in "echos" back-out. Kuzushi on contact that can then be manipulated.

I am not much for tricks. Once you know how these things work there are many ways to display them. Some prefer to use power displays. I occasionally do that too. But power displays while profound and exceptional (and Ark is very good) are not where I am at. I prefer a softer approach-don't show them your power and dissolve their strength while entering in. Ark can do more than those videos show. We are only discussing what he chose to show in a particular video.

Yes I have-not in Aikido though.
Again it is more important not to get hung up on individuals. There are others who can do these things, some accent one type of work others do another, some are better than others. The real question is where are we and what are our skills. To be in an aiki art and to demonstrate a profound lack of understanding, and any real ability to display these high level skills is simply sad.
Dan
O.K. I like that differentiation IP/AIKI.

As far as heaven and earth goes, well that's a new description to me re:force in echoes back out. Not my description but interesting showing me more of where you're coming from. Balancing opposites also different to my view on aikido aiki or should I give mine it's own name? Maybe I should call it uni/aiki (universal aiki)

I agree that once you know the basics on the different things you can them demonstrate these tricks. For me each and every one is merely a training tool and not for display purposes as they give the wrong impression and usually attract the wrong people.

Now your where are we comment. This I find interesting and more to my liking. To be an aiki art.

Now those you mention as doing these things, some accenting one type of work and others another. That implies different aspects of aiki done by different people to varying degrees of ability. That I could agree with.

I could say that in the field of Aikido I too look foreward to seeing more ability in that broad side of things. Personally, my (whatever you want to call it) uni/aiki I find very lacking.

Regards.G.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 03:54 PM   #539
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
This is a matter worthy of consideration, as is the question of whether you wish to put your professional credentials as an academic on the line in an argument about competing sectarian narratives, when you have already provided quite a bit of evidence that you have already picked a side, as distinct from taking a stance as a disinterested historical observer engaged in historical reasoning and analysis.
Ouch!

Mr McGrew....You might consider this if you continue down the path you've chosen.

It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experimentation, it's wrong. - Richard P. Feynman

Put the keyboard away and go get a feel......

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
 
Old 11-17-2011, 04:12 PM   #540
Howard Prior
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Howard
My bad...I was mixing stories and sources.....was reminded by another that what I was remembering was not the case.......Hey...it has been 30 years ago and a lot miles since I last talked to Terry..
Gary
No problem. I was just hoping....

Thanks.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 05:28 PM   #541
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Interestingly it was the Shihan that Stan trained with who revealed that Ueshiba was not a daily presence at Hombu. I know someone else who personally trained there who echoe's that same comment, and also said when he showed up training would change and they would begin....pushing on each other.
So I guess Mr McGrew is calling Stan Pranin and a veritable host of Aikido's shihan all liars.
Poo poo Mr. McGrew.
Dan
YOu have repeatedly claimed that O Sensei did not pass on what you call the body conditioning of Aiki. Now you say that when he taught they pushed on each other, which is to imply they trained in what you allege they should have trained in. Which is it?

When I say Harden and company the intent is to let people decide if they are in that company or not. How about, those who would agree with them, some of those who are posting certainly do... on every claim.

I do not intend to be drawn into the distraction of debating what the meaning of "is" is. The point here is that O Sensei taught the Aiki that he wanted to teach. He called what he taught Aiki. All within Aikido.

It's funny that no one jumped on the scientist commenting on his training. I have historical training. What has been presented so far looks rather one sided, doesn't dispense will the totality of evidence, and doesn't seem to support the agenda that is being advanced. I expect there will be ample problems trying to make the claims that are being made. I've seen enough counter evidence to believe this. Even the evidence presented that says that O Sensei traveled a lot does nothing to support the underlying claim that some people are trying to support. Does the head of a dojo teach every class? Does that mean he doesn't teach the students in his dojo as a whole? But I'm not going to be the one to present that historical fight as I'm doing other things. There are those who will.

No magic number of days of teaching in Tokyo will change the fact that O Sensei instructed his students in Aiki as he understood and wanted the concept to be understood after the war. He used the approach to instruction that he wanted to use. And Saotome Sensei in particular traveled with him often. It is simply not true that everyone after O Sensei turned the art into some watered down version that he was opposed to (one claim that is made) or alternatively that O Sensei was such a bad teacher that he couldn't convey his Aiki (another claim that is alternatively made).
 
Old 11-17-2011, 05:41 PM   #542
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

So much of what is presented as evidence simply falls apart on closer examination. It's either not there or doesn't support what it is said to support. Here's another quote from the Dobson seminar:

"What I'm looking for... is this person's energy... If Scott grabs me properly and digs down I'm going to have a much more difficult time to deal with him... than I do if I'm able to use the energy [shows using the energy of the grab]. This is basic stuff. I can't use force. I can't force him. I can use, however, what he is kind enough to give me."

Now this is just one example of claims being made by people who in some general way were on the other side, they were certainly dismissing what I had said about Aikido. Some people tried to claim Dobson Sensei as supporting their position. Obviously he did not. Nothing in the quote contradicts what I describe as Aiki. What most people the world over understand as Aiki.

Do your thing and build your body conditioning. But it won't stop you from getting punched in the face. Apparently there is no art there so the skills still must be incorporated in some art, like modern Aikido.

The problem is all the bold claims that are made and which are not needed in order for what you do to be of value. So play word games all you (meaning some people) want. The totality of the agenda at hand is pretty clear and has been in posts going back years and years here and on other forums.

Here's another contradiction, if Aikido works without your IS notion of Aiki, then Aikido doesn't need you. If it doesn't work without your Aiki, then you have to explain away all the examples of it working. If it works, by your definition, then it must already have the IS Aiki in it that you claim it needs but lacks. It's going to be hard to convince experienced Aikido students that Aikido doesn't work. Too many lives have been saved for us to buy that.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 05:54 PM   #543
stan baker
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Hi Ken

Like I said, ask your teachers to explain it to you.

stan
 
Old 11-17-2011, 06:36 PM   #544
raul rodrigo
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Ken, how can anyone here enlighten you when (you say) you know more about Terry Dobson than his friend and uchideshi Ellis Amdur, more about aikido history than Stan Pranin, more about translating Japanese than Chris Li. You know more about Saotome than his rokudan students like Ledyard and Gleason. You're on the verge of saying that you know more about Akuzawa (not Ukazawa) than his student Rob John. Their knowledge of their subjects is demonstrable and has been demonstrated on Aikiweb. Your knowledge? Not so much.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 08:40 PM   #545
Cady Goldfield
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Freaky! Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wWUc8BZgWE
 
Old 11-17-2011, 08:48 PM   #546
wxyzabc
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Lol...nice one Cady
 
Old 11-18-2011, 03:07 AM   #547
Chris Knight
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Confused Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Broadly speaking: While personal narratives carry personal weight in some instances, any consideration of such narratives also demands the examination of the reliability of the narrator(s), both with regard to questions of fact and with regard to the presence of personal, partisan, or sectarian agendas which have gone into the formation of that narrative, and the relative level of prominence and emphasis given to those facts which are not disputed.
what fred said
 
Old 11-18-2011, 07:19 AM   #548
Gary David
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Here's another contradiction, if Aikido works without your IS notion of Aiki, then Aikido doesn't need you. If it doesn't work without your Aiki, then you have to explain away all the examples of it working. If it works, by your definition, then it must already have the IS Aiki in it that you claim it needs but lacks. It's going to be hard to convince experienced Aikido students that Aikido doesn't work. Too many lives have been saved for us to buy that.
Mr. McGrew
My car works fine if I only drive it in first gear, I can get to the market and anyway else I want to go, all be it at a reduced speed. This is fine in a world were everyone is in first gear. The rub here is that many now are not. Wouldn't it be nice to find out your car had a 2nd, 3rd, 4th and maybe a 5th gear.......and be able to use them. Not changing the car....just improving the performance. That is all Dan is providing....the possibility of improved performance through the practice and drills he uses.

If you are fine with where you are then go with it, but I didn't grow up wanting to drive a low performance car with only one gear.........

Talking about cars....mine is starting to show some body rust and the paint is starting to fade.....you are at least 30 years younger than me...why not get out there to see what can be added before you get to my age....

Just saying

Gary

Last edited by Gary David : 11-18-2011 at 07:27 AM.
 
Old 11-18-2011, 07:47 AM   #549
Mark Freeman
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Here's another contradiction, if Aikido works without your IS notion of Aiki, then Aikido doesn't need you. If it doesn't work without your Aiki, then you have to explain away all the examples of it working. If it works, by your definition, then it must already have the IS Aiki in it that you claim it needs but lacks. It's going to be hard to convince experienced Aikido students that Aikido doesn't work. Too many lives have been saved for us to buy that.
Hi Ken,

I don't get what you mean in the last sentence, maybe it's just me being thick? Who's lives have been saved? and who is us?

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
 
Old 11-18-2011, 07:48 AM   #550
HL1978
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
So much of what is presented as evidence simply falls apart on closer examination. It's either not there or doesn't support what it is said to support. Here's another quote from the Dobson seminar:

"What I'm looking for... is this person's energy... If Scott grabs me properly and digs down I'm going to have a much more difficult time to deal with him... than I do if I'm able to use the energy [shows using the energy of the grab]. This is basic stuff. I can't use force. I can't force him. I can use, however, what he is kind enough to give me."

Now this is just one example of claims being made by people who in some general way were on the other side, they were certainly dismissing what I had said about Aikido. Some people tried to claim Dobson Sensei as supporting their position. Obviously he did not. Nothing in the quote contradicts what I describe as Aiki. What most people the world over understand as Aiki.

Do your thing and build your body conditioning. But it won't stop you from getting punched in the face. Apparently there is no art there so the skills still must be incorporated in some art, like modern Aikido.
Therein lies the rub as that above quote can be taken to mean someting a bit different from an IS perspective which might sound the same but isn't preformed the same. Off course if you want to get into self defense/fighting you have to practice that sort of thing but wouldn't the same be true in terms of the conventional approach for aiki?

Quote:
Here's another contradiction, if Aikido works without your IS notion of Aiki, then Aikido doesn't need you. If it doesn't work without your Aiki, then you have to explain away all the examples of it working. If it works, by your definition, then it must already have the IS Aiki in it that you claim it needs but lacks. It's going to be hard to convince experienced Aikido students that Aikido doesn't work. Too many lives have been saved for us to buy that.
It would be fair to say that Aikido, like tai chi, has the reputation among the martial arts community for "not working" under duress, except perhaps by very experienced exponents who understand timing, have excellent waza or great mass? Both seem to attract similar types of people. Now we could go into the how any why thats the case, though to summarize my opnion and probably those who are interested in IS, its because in either case most practioners aren't moving/studying how to move properly to make various "waza" work. Now if understanding IS makes tai chi work on a fully resisting opponent, why wouldnt the same be true for Aikido when it has the same issues?

It is really quite enlightening actually, because a lot of the foundational warmup exercises in aikido actually start to make sense as to why they are included. Dan's comments regarding "pushing" are rather interesting, because if that is true, it shows quite a bit as to why there was a disconnect between the founder and how the founders traditions were carried on, because being pushed on in a static position makes it fair easier to learn how to deal with energy coming into you than moving along with a partner to blend with them.
 

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