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Old 11-15-2011, 02:29 PM   #351
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post

You bring up blending a bit - so, let me just say that the quotes on blending you have presented from Saotome and Dobson can also very easily fit into Dan's model of aiki as well. keep in mind there is external blending and there is internal blending. You appear to advocate external blending into uke and then doing something to uke to unbalance him. In internal blending, the blending starts in nage by the balancing of yin-yang within, when uke attacks, uke's energy is blended internally with nage, and uke and nage become one under the control of nage - nage then unbalances uke by moving nage - nage maintains his balance but uke comes along for the ride and is unbalanced as the result - at this point, feel free to apply the technique of your choice - oh, by the way, all this happens in an instant at the point of contact with uke - no large timing movements from nage to position for leverage, etc.

Greg
Greg, this is only the second time in this whole discussion that someone tried to put into words what is being advocated for.

I agree that what you are describing is PART of Aikido. Internal unbalancing work if very good. I only argue that it's not the whole of what is needed. It's one way of doing things in a given situation. When I say blending, however, I mean something different than what Mr. Harden and others seems to be describing, as they say it is not relational but only internal and automatic. Not what you do but who you are.

Most of the training for this is at the level of exercise, in my opinion. When applied to application it needs to be incorporated, that is internal unbalancing, into the things that make up waza. I would argue that the things that are called tricks are essential, that you can't escape them. I would disagree with the idea of yo ho that is described in that I think Ki is part of this. I believe Saotome Sensei has a drawing that corresponds to this idea, with fire on one side and water on the other, in Harmony of Nature, but he also shows the world, original Ki, and water below... if I remember correctly. Finally, I argue that the system of cooperative training is not what makes Aikido fake, but what makes it possible to learn what cannot be taught directly in Aikido. I argue that we have to trust the system. But there's nothing wrong with working in other arts or working in exercises to isolate particular skills. They just shouldn't replace waza system.

I don't say any of this for the sake of my ego. This is conventional "modern" Aikido that I describe, is it not?

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 11-15-2011 at 02:33 PM.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 02:31 PM   #352
DH
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
We have a group of people who want to dominate conversations about Aikido on the international stage. When the evidence they present is questioned with logic and counter-evidence, they resort to repeated personal attacks, disparaging remarks, and now this. I have contacted Jun repeatedly about this. Because he hasn't responded, I will.
Mr McGrew
Those "people" are teachers of aikido. They have every right to discuss their aikido as anyone else. This movement isn't going away any day soon. I would not be surprised to come back in ten years and it is being discussed in the majority of dojo's. It is already being discussed by the top brass in various branches and by doshu.

When it comes to the discussion of internal power and aiki;
We have presented over the years, in many discussions, various how to's, reasons why, the logic in doing so, how it affects uke and you, where it occurs in other cultures and what our opinions were of the movements we saw.
Recently, some of my direct wording of what he was doing, has been validated in newly translated words of Ueshiba. In those works it is as if he was quoting me back at me...in his own words.

You have presented no counter evidence of anything as you don't understand what it is you are trying to counter.

In fairness, I think the burden was on us to try....somehow...to explain to the community that they had been had and not taught what Ueshiba was teaching and talking about. That their aikido was in fact not Ueshiba's aiki. Of course I can understand the angst, anger, and /or dismissiveness that was going to ensue. Sometimes you have to hold your breath going in, knowing that what you are saying and doing is correct and will prove true in the end. However, that was years ago. In all that time, and with hundreds of teachers and students going out to feel, test, train, whatever, the vast majority (almost 100%) have decided to train this way to enhance their aikido.
No one has ever told me it is counter or harmful to their aikido! In fact I hear just the opposite. I will add, that so far no one has been able to handle the power of aiki adequately, expressed and trained and demonstrated.

For this reason, I remain unmoved as to my observations and understanding of the skills I believe he was personally training, doing, and showing. I just returned from yet another seminar- with a teacher under your own Sensei- who stated that what I did was the finest explanation of Aiki in Aikido he had ever seen. So imagine how very odd for me personally to keep doing these seminars, and hearing these things, and for everyone to keep telling me it has changed their aikido for ever- only to read so much vitriol from those who do not understand it, have never felt it and who do not know me.
I continue to hope that we can do better, but in all honesty the attacks I continue to face do not come from me, they are aimed at me.
Dan
 
Old 11-15-2011, 02:46 PM   #353
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Did you miss the post above while you were typing?

People have every right to post, but not to use personal attacks and try to drive other people away in order to win.

I listed what I took to be what people say they are doing. Am I getting it wrong in the list I gave?

I have presented lots of counter evidence and argumentation that undermines the evidence that you and your supporters have presented. Not to win for the sake of winning. I don't understand how you can say I have presented no counter evidence.

I don't see any reason why the thing you are trying to describe can't exist at the same time that the things I'm describing, that O Sensei wrote, that others wrote and said about him, can't both exist within Aikido. There is a time to blend externally and throw. There's a time to connect internally, move a person (maybe even for their own good), and either throw or not throw. The fact that you feel that you found some evidence for your interpretation does not prove that O Sensei had not expanded on the art in ways that were important and not the result of yo ho. Yo ho may be the secret for the grounding demonstrations that O Sensei did. That doesn't mean that they are the secret for everything else he did. That is a basic mistake in logical argumentation. No offense intended by saying so.

To the extent that people stop training the waza system, because they have decided it is fake and trickery, then they start to stop Uke all the time, then it becomes damaging to the training process as O Sensei described it to Saotome Sensei, as he described in his books and videos, Etc.

Please stop saying that people from ASU training with you makes you correct. They don't all agree. Do you think I haven't asked senior people to confirm I am not as clueless as has been suggested? I am just not as clueless and incompetent in my understanding of what I've been taught as has been said. I doubt that most people in ASU go to you for the reasons that you think. That is, they probably think that blending, Etc. are important and not fake... they just think you're good at what it is you do. It's not necessarily support for your bold claims.

It's a lot to ask us to reject the things that O Sensei said to his students that were passed on to us. It's a lot to say that our teachers are just doing tricks that aren't Aiki. Translation errors can't erase the mountain of data here. Especially when you have so few translations to point to. We have to go by what O Sensei said and what he passed down. That doesn't mean that I think you suck at whatever you are doing. I trained with Ki society for a while. They were very good where I trained. Good Aikido. Effective. But not, in my opinion, for the reasons that they thought it worked. Still, very good Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Mr McGrew
Those "people" are teachers of aikido. They have every right to discuss their aikido as anyone else. This movement isn't going away any day soon. I would not be surprised to come back in ten years and it is being discussed in the majority of dojo's. It is already being discussed by the top brass in various branches and by doshu.

When it comes to the discussion of internal power and aiki;
We have presented over the years, in many discussions, various how to's, reasons why, the logic in doing so, how it affects uke and you, where it occurs in other cultures and what our opinions were of the movements we saw.
Recently, some of my direct wording of what he was doing, has been validated in newly translated words of Ueshiba. In those works it is as if he was quoting me back at me...in his own words.

You have presented no counter evidence of anything as you don't understand what it is you are trying to counter.

In fairness, I think the burden was on us to try....somehow...to explain to the community that they had been had and not taught what Ueshiba was teaching and talking about. That their aikido was in fact not Ueshiba's aiki. Of course I can understand the angst, anger, and /or dismissiveness that was going to ensue. Sometimes you have to hold your breath going in, knowing that what you are saying and doing is correct and will prove true in the end. However, that was years ago. In all that time, and with hundreds of teachers and students going out to feel, test, train, whatever, the vast majority (almost 100%) have decided to train this way to enhance their aikido.
No one has ever told me it is counter or harmful to their aikido! In fact I hear just the opposite. I will add, that so far no one has been able to handle the power of aiki adequately, expressed and trained and demonstrated.

For this reason, I remain unmoved as to my observations and understanding of the skills I believe he was personally training, doing, and showing. I just returned from yet another seminar- with a teacher under your own Sensei- who stated that what I did was the finest explanation of Aiki in Aikido he had ever seen. So imagine how very odd for me personally to keep doing these seminars, and hearing these things, and for everyone to keep telling me it has changed their aikido for ever- only to read so much vitriol from those who do not understand it, have never felt it and who do not know me.
I continue to hope that we can do better, but in all honesty the attacks I continue to face do not come from me, they are aimed at me.
Dan

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 11-15-2011 at 03:00 PM.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 02:50 PM   #354
HL1978
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Greg, this is only the second time in this whole discussion that someone tried to put into words what is being advocated for.

I agree that what you are describing is PART of Aikido. Internal unbalancing work if very good. I only argue that it's not the whole of what is needed. It's one way of doing things in a given situation. When I say blending, however, I mean something different than what Mr. Harden and others seems to be describing, as they say it is not relational but only internal and automatic. Not what you do but who you are.

Most of the training for this is at the level of exercise, in my opinion. When applied to application it needs to be incorporated, that is internal unbalancing, into the things that make up waza. I would argue that the things that are called tricks are essential, that you can't escape them. I would disagree with the idea of yo ho that is described in that I think Ki is part of this. I believe Saotome Sensei has a drawing that corresponds to this idea, with fire on one side and water on the other, in Harmony of Nature, but he also shows the world, original Ki, and water below... if I remember correctly. Finally, I argue that the system of cooperative training is not what makes Aikido fake, but what makes it possible to learn what cannot be taught directly in Aikido. I argue that we have to trust the system. But there's nothing wrong with working in other arts or working in exercises to isolate particular skills. They just shouldn't replace waza system.

I don't say any of this for the sake of my ego. This is conventional "modern" Aikido that I describe, is it not?
I was under the impresson that Ueshiba didn't teach waza, that the lists of waza were created by his students, and that he said that he was doing the same thing in each waza.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 03:05 PM   #355
BWells
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

All of this makes me think of the comments of Henry Kono at a party for
O'Sensie.

"Henry Kono: Another funny story... All of us, the foreign students, had cooked up a little party for his birthday with a cake and everything. That day, he was very relaxed and happy so I thought it might be the right moment to try my luck with a question. I asked him "O Sensei, how come we are not doing what you are doing?" He just smiled and replied "I understand Yin and Yang, you don't". Like if it was nothing, he just gave me the secret of Aikido. However, I am sure that he must have said it to other people before me but I kept it all within me until I understood how it all worked."
 
Old 11-15-2011, 03:06 PM   #356
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
I was under the impresson that Ueshiba didn't teach waza, that the lists of waza were created by his students, and that he said that he was doing the same thing in each waza.
By Waza I mean cooperative training process. There are other ways to train also, for different reasons, like balance building, strength building, connection training, Etc. but the cooperative training process was described by O Sensei as the educational system of Aikido.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 03:19 PM   #357
kewms
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
In the end you're demanding to be convinced. And that's nigh impossible if someone won't accept anything other than what they already believe to be the case. That's why I suggested you simply talk to Saotome when he visits the US next month if you think there's an issue with a whole lot of senior people studying with Dan. If you feel so strongly that it is contradictory to his writings as you understand them you should probably go to the "source". It is his organization after all and I seriously doubt he appointed you as defender of his writings. He might want to know what's going on and would probably give you guidance for the future.
Hard to be convinced if one refuses to step on the mat with the man. Just saying...

FWIW, Saotome Sensei lives in the US and teaches seminars frequently. If one wishes to ask a question -- especially if one has already discussed a topic with him at length -- it's just not that hard to find an opportunity.

Katherine
 
Old 11-15-2011, 03:20 PM   #358
DH
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Did you miss the post above while you were typing?
Yes.

Quote:
People have every right to post, but not to use personal attacks and try to drive other people away in order to win.
Again, I think that your manner coming in did yourself a disservice. I think it was you who should have apologized for the manner in which you approached this -particularly to me- so everyone could have re-set. You angered/irritated quite a few people. Not by the debate you wanted to have but rather your manner.

Quote:
I listed what I took to be what people say they are doing. Am I getting it wrong in the list I gave?
Yes almost completely. It doesn't help that you misquote them as well.

Quote:
I have presented lots of counter evidence and argumentation that undermines the evidence that you and your supporters have presented. Not to win for the sake of winning. I don't understand how you can say I have presented no counter evidence.
In fact many of things I do teach are also outlined in some of your supposed counter arguments. It's why people are struggling to take you seriously. It's as if I am teaching the sky is blue, and you are arguing that the sky is blue. Sorry, but we can't help but laugh.

I
Quote:
don't see any reason why the thing you are trying to describe can't exist at the same time that the things I'm describing, that O Sensei wrote, that others wrote and said about him, can't both exist within Aikido. There is a time to blend externally and throw. There's a time to connect internally, move a person (maybe even for their own good), and either throw or not throw. The fact that you feel that you found some evidence for your interpretation does not prove that O Sensei had not expanded on the art in ways that were important and not the result of yo ho. Yo ho may be the secret for the grounding demonstrations that O Sensei did. That doesn't mean that they are the secret for everything else he did. That is a basic mistake in logical argumentation. No offense intended by saying so.
Good grief, man you are now stating what others stated to you. They do both exist AT THE SAME TIME. This is getting rather bizzare.

Quote:
It's a lot to ask us to reject the things that O Sensei said to his students that were passed on to us. It's a lot to say that our teachers are just doing tricks that aren't Aiki. Translation errors can't erase the mountain of data here. Especially when you have so few translations to point to. We have to go by what O Sensei said and what he passed down. That doesn't mean that I think you suck at whatever you are doing. I trained with Ki society for a while. They were very good where I trained. Good Aikido. Effective. But not, in my opinion, for the reasons that they thought it worked. Still, very good Aikido.
I have never said to reject what Ueshiba said.
"We have to go by what O Sensei said and what he passed down."
My argument is that you have never read what he actually DID SAY and pointed to as his aiki.
Oddly this is very clear to most who have read what I write, and a source of our disagreement on aikiweb, yet somehow you missed that.
Other than from myself, I have never read anything presented on the way Ueshiba moved that was correct-until the recent translations appeared and Ueshiba stated essentially what I have been saying all along. And the majority of the aikido I have seen is not what he was doing. FYI, comparing me to ki society further proves you have absolutely no idea of what I do or am talking about. In fact, it serves as a perfect example of that point. And it is another example that hundreds of teachers know is different and you don't. It would serve you well to know you do not know me or what I do, and leave it at that.
Oh well.
Dan
 
Old 11-15-2011, 03:24 PM   #359
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Hard to be convinced if one refuses to step on the mat with the man. Just saying...

FWIW, Saotome Sensei lives in the US and teaches seminars frequently. If one wishes to ask a question -- especially if one has already discussed a topic with him at length -- it's just not that hard to find an opportunity.

Katherine
I am convinced that Dan is good at what he does, whatever "it" is. I have no doubt about that, in all seriousness. I never said I did.

Do I not describe it correctly?

If there is no way to test bold claims except to feel what he does, why make the claims in a forum? Frankly, if what he claims is true it can be proven with logic. Feeling him do something impressive does not prove all the things that have been claimed. It doesn't even prove that he is great for the reasons he thinks he's great. I don't believe that O Sensei was possessed by a deity. I don't think that was the direct source of his take musu Aiki. Training with him directly would not have convinced me either. He could come closer to convincing me with logic.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 03:29 PM   #360
kewms
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
People have every right to post, but not to use personal attacks and try to drive other people away in order to win.

I listed what I took to be what people say they are doing. Am I getting it wrong in the list I gave?
You've materially mis-represented my position on at least three different occasions. When asked to provide a quote or retract your statements, you have not done so. I can't speak for anyone else, but based on that record, it seems likely that your understanding of other people's statements is similarly flawed.

Katherine
 
Old 11-15-2011, 03:29 PM   #361
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
To the extent that people stop training the waza system, because they have decided it is fake and trickery, then they start to stop Uke all the time, then it becomes damaging to the training process as O Sensei described it to Saotome Sensei, as he described in his books and videos, .
Many of us have explicitly said and will continue to say: we are continuing to get on the mat and train as nage and uke, doing waza. As uke, we are not resisting, we are not tanking. We are (trying to at least, depending on our skill level!) providing the committed, sincere attack nage needs in order to do the technique the instructor has asked us to do. As nage , we are not standing there like blocks, we are (again, at least striving to dep. on skill level) entering, establishing a connection to uke's center, achieving kuzushi in order to do the technique the instructor has asked us to do.
Making use of the internal strength training is no different from a Ki Society dojo making use of those tools IN SERVICE TO WAZA. We are doing aikido. I have no idea why you think this is not the case.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
 
Old 11-15-2011, 03:31 PM   #362
raul rodrigo
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

I remember the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. No matter what happens, as in he loses both arms and both legs, he just sneers: "This is just a flesh wound."
 
Old 11-15-2011, 03:35 PM   #363
DH
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Many of us have explicitly said and will continue to say: we are continuing to get on the mat and train as nage and uke, doing waza. As uke, we are not resisting, we are not tanking. We are (trying to at least, depending on our skill level!) providing the committed, sincere attack nage needs in order to do the technique the instructor has asked us to do. As nage , we are not standing there like blocks, we are (again, at least striving to dep. on skill level) entering, establishing a connection to uke's center, achieving kuzushi in order to do the technique the instructor has asked us to do.
Making use of the internal strength training is no different from a Ki Society dojo making use of those tools IN SERVICE TO WAZA. We are doing aikido. I have no idea why you think this is not the case.
I'm at a loss.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 03:41 PM   #364
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Mr. Harden,

I did not compare to you Ki Society. I used them as an example of people being good at something, but the fact that they are good at it does not convince me it's because they have Ki beams coming out of their eyes, mouths, and fingers. But they were good. You are good. But does that prove the other things you say.

I have already apologized for any misquotations of you and for losing my patience earlier. Your supporters and yourself were not blameless. To be accused of lying right off the bat would offend anyone. It offended me and I responded badly initially. Do you think all these personal attacks that continue, all the statements about "budo men" reflects well on your people? Why don't we move on. If I'm not worth communicating with, then don't. If what you claim is correct then what you say is very important. If it is not correct that doesn't prove that you have nothing to offer.

If we go back in the discussion carefully I could point to people who stated that all of O Sensei's Aikido was the Aiki connection and that everything else, blending, leading, body positioning, were tricks and not Aiki. The people who made these statements presented themselves as knowing what you were doing. You even praised some of them for presenting your ideas. I know it's a lot of posts and you haven't read them all word for word. Just saying. I'm responding to specific things people said.

Now I am very confused about what you believe as you reject the list I gave. That list is taken from what people said on here on your behalf and from things you said. I could point to the various statements made by yourself and others that led me to make the list. You in fact said it is not relational and is inside yourself. I don't understand why you would now deny you said that. It would be so much easier if you or someone you officially endorse to the purpose would either make a list or respond to my list.

If your argument is that yo ho internal unbalancing is only part of what makes Aikido work, then I believe you may be right, so far as certain things like O Sensei's displays of grounding. I don't know if you are right. But I have no reason to say you are wrong. I know you have new translations that point to the fact that the concept of yo ho is important. There are other applications of the concept of yin and yang that the founder presented. I believe it was more than one thing. I believe this based on what direct students of his said. The new translations Chris found, speaking in terms of logic and evidence, may support some of your claims. They don't seem to be conclusive support for all the claims you have made, assuming I understand what those claims are at all. You do realize that Saotome Sensei did his own translations, with the help of a team of people, of certain lessons by O Sensei and published them in Harmony of Nature? We have more sources than the American translators for believing certain things about what O Sensei believed.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Yes.

Again, I think that your manner coming in did yourself a disservice. I think it was you who should have apologized for the manner in which you approached this -particularly to me- so everyone could have re-set. You angered/irritated quite a few people. Not by the debate you wanted to have but rather your manner.

Yes almost completely. It doesn't help that you misquote them as well.

In fact many of things I do teach are also outlined in some of your supposed counter arguments. It's why people are struggling to take you seriously. It's as if I am teaching the sky is blue, and you are arguing that the sky is blue. Sorry, but we can't help but laugh.

I
Good grief, man you are now stating what others stated to you. They do both exist AT THE SAME TIME. This is getting rather bizzare.

I have never said to reject what Ueshiba said.
"We have to go by what O Sensei said and what he passed down."
My argument is that you have never read what he actually DID SAY and pointed to as his aiki.
Oddly this is very clear to most who have read what I write, and a source of our disagreement on aikiweb, yet somehow you missed that.
Other than from myself, I have never read anything presented on the way Ueshiba moved that was correct-until the recent translations appeared and Ueshiba stated essentially what I have been saying all along. And the majority of the aikido I have seen is not what he was doing. FYI, comparing me to ki society further proves you have absolutely no idea of what I do or am talking about. In fact, it serves as a perfect example of that point. And it is another example that hundreds of teachers know is different and you don't. It would serve you well to know you do not know me or what I do, and leave it at that.
Oh well.
Dan

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 11-15-2011 at 03:46 PM.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 03:58 PM   #365
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Here is someone answering my questions to Mr. Harden, on his behalf, and to which I have been speaking. I will also highlight the most relevant quote here:

Is internal balance breaking the only way to do Aikido or is is also ok to break balance externally using the momentum of Uke? - The only way to do Ueshiba's aikido.

People, answering the questions for Mr. Harden, said there is only one way to do Aiki as Ueshiba did.

QUOTE=Jason Casteel;296641]Anyone can answer these for you.

Are you against the cooperative training approach? Cooperative training, no. Training where, for instance, someone does a shomenuchi and you make the movements of a technique and they fall, yes, definitely.

Do you claim that O'Sensei was against the cooperative training approach? see above.

Do you claim that there is no difference between Ju Jitsu and Aikido? Daito Ryu Aiki-jujitsu, not really no.

Do you claim that O'Sensei was not religious? no

Do you claim that no students of O'Sensei can do the Aikido that O'Sensei was showing them and wanted them to do? If some could do it please indicate which ones. - how many of them can do what he could do? Only a handful of his students seem to have been particularly respected for their skills.

Do you claim that Aikido does not work by blending with energy? - blending with energy inside yourself, sure. The twirly external stuff, only to a certain degree and I would consider it low probability and this from someone who has used it in real fights.

Is internal balance breaking the only way to do Aikido or is is also ok to break balance externally using the momentum of Uke? - The only way to do Ueshiba's aikido.

To the extent that any of these claims are claims that you make, how do you reconcile them with the quotes I have provided from O'Sensei that seem to contradict them? - This type of training has done nothing but open my eyes to the things he said. I've seen no contradictions.[/quote]
 
Old 11-15-2011, 04:01 PM   #366
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
You've materially mis-represented my position on at least three different occasions. When asked to provide a quote or retract your statements, you have not done so. I can't speak for anyone else, but based on that record, it seems likely that your understanding of other people's statements is similarly flawed.

Katherine
This is a dishonest attempt to engage in point making over semantics. You claim that I falsely accused you of calling Aikido fake when you said it doesn't work. Same thing. But fine. You never said it was fake. You just said that blending, leading, body positioning won't work. Same thing. You gave Judo as an example, a situation where two opponents go at each other and are not allowed by rules to evade...

Please stop trying to attack me and score cheap points. Let Mr. Harden just list out what he believes. That would be great.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 04:04 PM   #367
DH
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Attacks? Attacks?? Katherine was never attacking you she was addressing you once again misquoting her like you do me and asking for a retraction. Has it dawned on you that everyone sees this behavior as an attack ON ME?
Look what you are doing again. Listen, I am reaching the end of my rope. Stop this and stop it now.
I do not know Jason, he has never trained with me and I am POSITIVE that he is as pissed as I am to hear he is speaking on my behalf. I am sick of this misdirection, misquoting, and restatements of things that have NOTHING TO DO WITH ME.
Knock it off.
Dan

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Here is someone answering my questions to Mr. Harden, on his behalf, and to which I have been speaking. I will also highlight the most relevant quote here:

Is internal balance breaking the only way to do Aikido or is is also ok to break balance externally using the momentum of Uke? - The only way to do Ueshiba's aikido.

People, answering the questions for Mr. Harden, said there is only one way to do Aiki as Ueshiba did.

QUOTE=Jason Casteel;296641]Anyone can answer these for you.

Are you against the cooperative training approach? Cooperative training, no. Training where, for instance, someone does a shomenuchi and you make the movements of a technique and they fall, yes, definitely.

Do you claim that O'Sensei was against the cooperative training approach? see above.

Do you claim that there is no difference between Ju Jitsu and Aikido? Daito Ryu Aiki-jujitsu, not really no.

Do you claim that O'Sensei was not religious? no

Do you claim that no students of O'Sensei can do the Aikido that O'Sensei was showing them and wanted them to do? If some could do it please indicate which ones. - how many of them can do what he could do? Only a handful of his students seem to have been particularly respected for their skills.

Do you claim that Aikido does not work by blending with energy? - blending with energy inside yourself, sure. The twirly external stuff, only to a certain degree and I would consider it low probability and this from someone who has used it in real fights.

Is internal balance breaking the only way to do Aikido or is is also ok to break balance externally using the momentum of Uke? - The only way to do Ueshiba's aikido.

To the extent that any of these claims are claims that you make, how do you reconcile them with the quotes I have provided from O'Sensei that seem to contradict them? - This type of training has done nothing but open my eyes to the things he said. I've seen no contradictions.

Last edited by DH : 11-15-2011 at 04:11 PM.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 04:04 PM   #368
kewms
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
This is a dishonest attempt to engage in point making over semantics. You claim that I falsely accused you of calling Aikido fake when you said it doesn't work. Same thing. But fine. You never said it was fake. You just said that blending, leading, body positioning won't work. Same thing. You gave Judo as an example, a situation where two opponents go at each other and are not allowed by rules to evade...
Again, provide the quote or retract the statement. In particular, I don't recall even mentioning judo, except in the mild suggestion that training with a judoka might be enlightening.

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 11-15-2011 at 04:07 PM.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 04:10 PM   #369
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Many people have argued that Aikido does not work by blending, at least not real Aiki, and that those are tricks. People have written those things in this discussion. I can dig them up if I must. People have suggested that Mr. Harden provides the solution to the artificial and superficial nature of "overly" cooperative training. I was told that if my Aikido works because of my blending that I must also be doing more internal unbalancing than I realize in order for it to work. Katherine, I believe, described slow static practice to take balance from resistance that was just enough to let you succeed. Someone described very clearly the idea of brining Uke into you so you can move them and they can't prevent it. This is what I'm responding to.

Internal connection is great. Internal unbalancing is great. It is not the only way that Aikido works. You often connect to Uke. But you don't always connect. You do what fits the situation. Body positioning, blending, leading, these are not tricks, they are part of Aiki.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Many of us have explicitly said and will continue to say: we are continuing to get on the mat and train as nage and uke, doing waza. As uke, we are not resisting, we are not tanking. We are (trying to at least, depending on our skill level!) providing the committed, sincere attack nage needs in order to do the technique the instructor has asked us to do. As nage , we are not standing there like blocks, we are (again, at least striving to dep. on skill level) entering, establishing a connection to uke's center, achieving kuzushi in order to do the technique the instructor has asked us to do.
Making use of the internal strength training is no different from a Ki Society dojo making use of those tools IN SERVICE TO WAZA. We are doing aikido. I have no idea why you think this is not the case.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 04:11 PM   #370
Chris Knight
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

ok guys, Ken calm it down will you, I want some answers to my post before the thread is closed...
 
Old 11-15-2011, 04:13 PM   #371
Fred Little
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
u or someone you officially endorse to the purpose would either make a list or respond to my list.

If your argument is that yo ho internal unbalancing is only part of what makes Aikido work, then I believe you may be right, .
I believe that we can all agree on this: yo ho internal unbalancing requires one more ho and a bottle of rum.

FL

 
Old 11-15-2011, 04:13 PM   #372
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Again, provide the quote or retract the statement. In particular, I don't recall even mentioning judo, except in the mild suggestion that training with a judoka might be enlightening.

Katherine
I just did retract it. I said fine. I retract it. You never exactly said Aikido is fake. And I never put it in quotation marks when I said that you said it was fake. It's called paraphrasing. It is not the same thing as misquoting.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 04:15 PM   #373
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
ok guys, Ken calm it down will you, I want some answers to my post before the thread is closed...
Please explain why my posts don't seem calm. Why address this to me? Dan wrote in all caps, not me. I'm perfectly calm.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 04:15 PM   #374
kewms
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Katherine, I believe, described slow static practice to take balance from resistance that was just enough to let you succeed.
Sure. That's one of many useful training tools. I never claimed that was all of aikido.

Katherine
 
Old 11-15-2011, 04:16 PM   #375
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
You often connect to Uke. But you don't always connect. You do what fits the situation. Body positioning, blending, leading, these are not tricks, they are part of Aiki.
Then we have fundamentally different conceptions of aikido, because to me without connection there is no aikido.
I never said or implied that body position, blending or leading are "tricks" - but I will say in my conception of aikido, they are tools that enable us to make connection. Even on a non-touch throw there is an inherent connection between uke and nage or else uke is merely tanking.

Janet Rosen
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