Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Open Discussions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-10-2011, 08:45 AM   #1
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 716
United Kingdom
Offline
The Truth about Violence

I had two thoughts as I was reading this blog

1. This makes a lot of sense
2. I am very glad not to live in the USA

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/t...bout-violence/

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2011, 09:04 AM   #2
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I had two thoughts as I was reading this blog

1. This makes a lot of sense
2. I am very glad not to live in the USA

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/t...bout-violence/
Wasn't there a bunch of riots and stuff all over the UK a couple of months ago....?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2011, 09:14 AM   #3
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 716
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Wasn't there a bunch of riots and stuff all over the UK a couple of months ago....?
There was, and not far from where live too. Had a different vibe to it though.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2011, 02:21 PM   #4
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,212
United_States
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I had two thoughts as I was reading this blog

1. This makes a lot of sense
2. I am very glad not to live in the USA

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/t...bout-violence/
We do have a Wild West cultural underpinning to a lot over here...not that there aren't plenty of similar expressions of aggression everywhere else. Next watch several episodes of Gangland! Thug Life is alive and well in da hood; which now spreads out to da 'burbs, thanks to pop culture. Still, much of that is a matter of "avoiding dangerous people," and knowing something about how not to look like easy prey. A lot of it is pretty easy stuff once we're made aware of it. Two things I always track are the eyes and the hands. They generally seem to be good indicators of where a person's mind is at. Body language cues seem to be something many people pay little attention to.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2011, 03:10 PM   #5
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 716
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

I find "Do not defend your property" striking especially because it follows logically from the basic premise.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2011, 03:34 PM   #6
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,256
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Totally a case of YMMV: there are neighborhoods in most cities that are pretty much battle zones. And L.A. is its own weird world with that helicopter LE culture - I so could not live in that.
But I lived 19 years in New York City and over 35 years in San Francisco. Now I live in a small town in a rural area, but drunkenness, petty crime and meth are as rife here as anyplace.
In all these years, I was mugged once, at age 15 AND with my boyfriend present; my cars broken into twice; my homes one attempted burglary.
Lest you think I have led a sheltered life, I started riding NYC buses and subways alone and going to parks, museums, etc alone at age 13. The last 2 yrs I was in NY I routinely rode subways alone between 10 pm and midnight.
I deterred potential muggers at least a couple of times I know of both in NY and SF by simple body language and have no idea how many times w/o being aware of it. I did middle of the night street patrols in the Haight Ashbury in the mid70s when it was a pretty blighted area and did fine. I had a knife aimed on me once, besides the above-referenced mugging, when I triangulated between the junkie holding the knife and a coworker who had stupidly called him out as a liar (the coworker fled into the office, leaving me to de-escalate the guy on the street, which I was succesfully doing when other coworkers pulled up in a truck - & never ever spoke a word to that asshole coworker again). I've broken up fights when it seemed the right/safe thing to do, chased people off my neighbors' roofs and my back steps, etc...And in all those decades all but one of the shootings I've witnessed was by LEOs and the only time I've had guns pulled on me has been by LEOs.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2011, 05:00 PM   #7
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Ha, ha. Here's a point worth considering in my view. Everyone want's to think it's worse 'over there' It itself gives them a false sense of security.

The point of all martial arts in my opinion is building that thing that is the main enemy of violence, self confidence.

You start with self, with the person. Not with how to be scared and rely on walls and barred windows and look how dangerous everything is. Wrong path.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2011, 05:35 PM   #8
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
There was, and not far from where live too. Had a different vibe to it though.
yea total anarchy and breakdown in basic society does have a different vibe to it.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2011, 06:46 PM   #9
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 716
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
yea total anarchy and breakdown in basic society does have a different vibe to it.
Regardless, the articles is well worth reading I think.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2011, 07:53 AM   #10
genin
Location: southwest
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Good article. He reiterates what most of us already know. Which is that violence should always be avoided if possible. He then goes on to describe many different scenarios, but all of which the underlying goal is the same--protect yourself by avoiding or escaping violent situations.

Most violent crime victims could easily have avoided it, with a little common sense and foresight. Women who choose to be in relationships with abusive and violent men, should expect the relationship to eventually end violently. The sketchy guys that hang out outside the Circle K all night, probably will eventually find themselves on one side or the other of a violent encounter. But how easy is it to simply avoid these people and these situations? It should be fairly simple. I'd even go as far as to say that 90% of violent situations could be avoided simply by not hanging around stupid people and losers.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2011, 03:58 PM   #11
Belt_Up
Dojo: Dynamic Aikido Nocquet
Location: Hartlepool
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 107
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
yea total anarchy and breakdown in basic society does have a different vibe to it.
Made me spit my tea out. Classic.

Quote:
I'd even go as far as to say that 90% of violent situations could be avoided simply by not hanging around stupid people and losers.
Oh dear. Completely imaginary statistics. Why are they so popular?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2011, 04:05 PM   #12
genin
Location: southwest
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
Oh dear. Completely imaginary statistics. Why are they so popular?
Probably should've said "a majority" rather than giving a percentage. Sort of like saying that nine out of ten times you'll find this to be true.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2011, 05:30 PM   #13
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
Good article. He reiterates what most of us already know. Which is that violence should always be avoided if possible. He then goes on to describe many different scenarios, but all of which the underlying goal is the same--protect yourself by avoiding or escaping violent situations.

Most violent crime victims could easily have avoided it, with a little common sense and foresight. Women who choose to be in relationships with abusive and violent men, should expect the relationship to eventually end violently. The sketchy guys that hang out outside the Circle K all night, probably will eventually find themselves on one side or the other of a violent encounter. But how easy is it to simply avoid these people and these situations? It should be fairly simple. I'd even go as far as to say that 90% of violent situations could be avoided simply by not hanging around stupid people and losers.
Its not that simple. You are wrong IMO about women in abusive relationships. The situations are not that simple. They don't go into those relationships to get abused, nor should they expect it, and they don't see that it will end violently. Domestic violence is not that simple.

All of us as prone to violence and sometimes it is not avoidable. I,ve turned the wrong corner a few times in a strange town. Broken down in the wrong area. These things happen. And it is not simply that easy to avoid it all the time.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2011, 07:17 AM   #14
genin
Location: southwest
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Its not that simple. You are wrong IMO about women in abusive relationships. The situations are not that simple. They don't go into those relationships to get abused, nor should they expect it, and they don't see that it will end violently. Domestic violence is not that simple.

All of us as prone to violence and sometimes it is not avoidable. I,ve turned the wrong corner a few times in a strange town. Broken down in the wrong area. These things happen. And it is not simply that easy to avoid it all the time.
We usually don't seek out undesireable situations--we find ourselves in them. A person doesn't seek an abusive partner, and you don't set out to get lost in the hood. But you may still find yourself lost one day, or with a violent partner.

It should be a matter of realizing in a split second "Holy crap, I'm lost!" or "Oh no, my boyfriend is a nutjob!" A keen mind is all that is needed to make that determination. If you find yourself getting lost everyday on the way home from work and you have to battle your way back out of the hood, then that isn't a reflection of the dangers of violence in our daily life. It's a reflection of poor judgment and bad decision making.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2011, 09:14 AM   #15
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,803
United_States
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
We usually don't seek out undesireable situations--we find ourselves in them.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

If I find myself in the same parking lot more than once, I just might be driving there.

We may not consciously seek out certain situations, but unconsciously they agree with us and are familiar.

If we just find ourselves in them - perhaps we are not looking soon enough or deep enough?

If we are looking for the truth about violence - perhaps we need only look into our own minds and hearts?

Thoughts?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2011, 10:00 AM   #16
genin
Location: southwest
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
If we just find ourselves in them - perhaps we are not looking soon enough or deep enough?

If we are looking for the truth about violence - perhaps we need only look into our own minds and hearts?

Thoughts?
I agree that we must look inside ourselves to determine what attracts us to painful/dangerous situations. Low self-worth and chidhood abuse may be reasons that draw a domestic violence victim to abusive people. Sheer stupidity may be the reason why some put themselves in what would otherwise be easily avoidable predicaments, like fighting with drunken people inside or outside of bars and clubs.

But I say this from the perspective of an adult with martial training and experience. I know that when I was younger, violent situations seemed to occur for me more frequently. Maybe I was less apt to identify them back then, or perhaps I attracted violence by coming across as an easy target. Once I resolved to remove myself from questionable people and places, and let it be known that I would defend myself violently if needed, I never again became the victim of violence. I think that introspection might be your best tool to avoid violence, as it is YOU who ultimately controls where you go and how you respond to situations.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2011, 10:30 AM   #17
TimB99
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 22
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

http://www.lowtechcombat.com/2010/03...ight-most.html

http://www.lowtechcombat.com/2010/12...ime-in-us.html

http://www.lowtechcombat.com/2010/11...et-fights.html

Might be interesting...

G'day to y'all!

Tim Bergman
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2011, 11:29 AM   #18
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Some good people are just simply in bad situations that they cannot get themselves out of. They are born into it. They have become Co dependent for whatever reason and it is not out of stupidity or lack of desire to not be in those situations.

There are many good people in the world that need help and support to get out of the violent situations they are in. They did nothing necessarily wrong or made a bad choice. They simply are where they are for a multitude of reasons.

Compassionate individuals are needed to not judge this folks, but to be there for them. To help them find their way and to help them find hope and strength.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2011, 12:28 PM   #19
genin
Location: southwest
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Some good people are just simply in bad situations that they cannot get themselves out of. They are born into it. They have become Co dependent for whatever reason and it is not out of stupidity or lack of desire to not be in those situations.

There are many good people in the world that need help and support to get out of the violent situations they are in. They did nothing necessarily wrong or made a bad choice. They simply are where they are for a multitude of reasons.

Compassionate individuals are needed to not judge this folks, but to be there for them. To help them find their way and to help them find hope and strength.
People who are placed into unavoidable violent situations are one thing, but people who end up there through their own bad choices are another. What I took from Harris' blog, was that violence should always be avoided, and for the most part, can be. All it takes is a basic understanding of human nature and practical knowledge of conflict resolution.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2011, 01:43 PM   #20
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

I agree thathere are people that look and seek violence for sure. I would not go so far as to say violence should always be avoided. At some point and in some circumstances some times it is important to make a stand and face violence and stop it. So i would not go so far as to say it should always be avoided.

There are some very bad people in the world that simply donot care that others want a peaceful existence and will not stop and reason with you. At some point violence must be stopped.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2011, 02:18 PM   #21
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

alsI disagree with Harris advice on fighting to escape. It might be semantics, but I can't figure out how you do this. Either you are fighting for your life or you are not. There is no middle ground of control where you can fight to escape. I think what he may mean is use minimal force necessary. However that is a different paradigm in my mind than fighting to escape.

If you are losing the fight, then you are fighting to gain control and dominate your opponent. If you are in control, then you are in control it is really a black or white issue.

Of course there are situations where it makes sense to make for a door or secure area, and,maybe this is what he is referring to. However that comes once you have the space and control to disengag. Until that point you are fighting to win and not to escape.

It might seem like a small point, but to me it KS important to make sure you understand what it is that u are doing while in the fight.

Going back to Hariss' avoidance theme...I think a better term is passive measures. There are lots of passive measures you can take to mitigate potential risk. This to me is not avoidance, but mitigation. Good locks, lighting, avoiding bad areas, walking with a buddy fall into passive measures. You are not avoiding violence, but mitigating it.

Splitting hairs? Maybe, but to me it is an important perspective and not just words.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2011, 02:41 PM   #22
genin
Location: southwest
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

I don't think violence should be avoided at all costs (in the pacifist sense), but it should be avoided if possible as a general rule of thumb.

Maybe the distinction between avoidance and mitigation is that you can avoid some situations altogher, but those you can't, you will have to find a way to mitigate the danger through passive measures.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2011, 02:43 PM   #23
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,803
United_States
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Compassionate individuals are needed to not judge this folks, but to be there for them. To help them find their way and to help them find hope and strength.
Yes agreed.

Many are ignorant of the familial and social patterns that were indoctrinated into and facilitate and perpetuate without knowing it.

Judgement never works to change a situation.

It takes compassion and courage to to face a conflict and conquer it.

We never do this alone.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2011, 02:47 PM   #24
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,803
United_States
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
There are some very bad people in the world that simply donot care that others want a peaceful existence and will not stop and reason with you. At some point violence must be stopped.
Yes agreed.

And for some to be peaceful, others may have to be violent.

While in the long run, violence is seldom a long term solutions (since it usually breeds more violence), unfortunately often in the short term situation violence cannot be avoided. Then it is only a question of who is better trained.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2011, 02:57 PM   #25
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,803
United_States
Offline
Re: The Truth about Violence

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
You are not avoiding violence, but mitigating it.
Yes agreed (again).

Some hairs need to be split and some semantics corrected to direct our interpretation and focus.

IMHO, we usually respond with fight, flight, or freeze.

Avoidance is fear based and can create a chase mentality in situational and opportunistic predators.

Perhaps "mitigating" is flowing (enter and blend) by seeing the big situational picture through strategic (not just tactical) eyes and minimize the potential and possibilities beforehand, and then manage/"mitigate" what is unavoidable?

Thoughts?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The heart against the sword Guillaume Erard External Aikido Blog Posts 3 02-28-2011 09:30 AM
The heart against the sword Guillaume Erard External Aikido Blog Posts 0 02-28-2011 05:30 AM
The heart against the sword Guillaume Erard External Aikido Blog Posts 0 01-17-2011 01:36 PM
Help please I need of all the aikidokist (being bullied) felipe_3 General 43 09-16-2010 07:48 AM
Aikido and the politics of violence Neil Mick Spiritual 54 09-12-2002 03:55 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:48 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate