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Old 11-14-2011, 03:24 PM   #276
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Accusing Dan -- who claims no rank in Daito Ryu -- of spearheading a conspiracy to infiltrate aikido is hardly a typo. Too ridiculous to deserve comment, but not a typo. If you don't want to be held accountable for accusations like that one, don't make them.

Katherine
It's not a conspiracy. It's an 8 stage process that he outlined. He is restoring Aikido to the pre-war glory of whatever. This is an old argument rehashed in new language. This is Daito-ryu, Yoshinkan, Saito Sensei all making the old claims about "modern" Aikido being fake, Etc.

The things that you take to be fake are the parts that O Sensei added to make Aikido different and better, not worse.
 
Old 11-14-2011, 03:24 PM   #277
kewms
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
I have repeatedly stated that internal work is good. I have repeatedly stated that what Dan does may be very good and may be useful at times to Aikido. I have repeatedly stated that one should generally connect with the center. I have merely argued, technically speaking, that there are other sides to Aikido. It is Dan, yourself, and others who have said these other sides are merely tricks. I am not the one being orthodox.
I have not said any such thing. Please provide a quote or retract your statement.

Katherine
 
Old 11-14-2011, 03:26 PM   #278
kewms
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
The things that you take to be fake are the parts that O Sensei added to make Aikido different and better, not worse.
Again, I have personally made no claims that any aspect of modern aikido is fake. Please provide a quote or retract your statement.

Katherine
 
Old 11-14-2011, 03:29 PM   #279
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I was not at the San Francisco seminar this weekend, and will not speculate on what was or was not said, or by whom.

I was at a different seminar, taught by one ASU rokudan and attended by another. Neither of them seems to see any particular conflict between Saotome Sensei's positions and their work with Dan. Both of them remain ASU instructors and dojo-cho in good standing. So clearly their interpretation is different from yours, and equally clearly Saotome Sensei is okay with that.

Katherine
Again, you engage in a dishonest argument.

I have demonstrated that I am not misrepresenting what Saotome Sensei said. This is a matter of honor at this point. It has nothing to do with the fact that Sensei allows us to train other arts. Sensei is not on the internet and his ability to read English is limited. To the extent that people are teaching not to do the blending and joining that Sensei shows, then I don't think he'd be ok with that. STRICTLY FORBIDDEN. It is Dan who claimed to be backed up by Saotome Sensei, or rather claimed that I did not know what I was talking about regarding Saotome Sensei's teachings, it is his claim that I am forced to respond to.

Blending and body positioning are said to be tricks. Saotome Sensei says they are part and parcel with Aiki. So there is a conflict here.
 
Old 11-14-2011, 03:30 PM   #280
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Again, I have personally made no claims that any aspect of modern aikido is fake. Please provide a quote or retract your statement.

Katherine
Yes you have. You have stated that body positioning does not work. Do you think people won't remember? You are simply not trying to engage in an honest discussion.
 
Old 11-14-2011, 03:31 PM   #281
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Training with people from other arts is a great way to test one's assumptions, with a particular eye to finding blind spots in one's own training. Many possible lessons are available, but the ones most relevant to the post I was responding to include:
* The realization that good attackers don't actually unbalance themselves much, if at all, when they attack. This challenges the assumption that the energy of an attack makes it "easy" to unbalance the attacker.
* The realization that actually completing an irimi entry against a non-compliant attacker is not a trivial matter, and potentially creates many opportunities for reversals and followup strikes.
* The realization that merely getting behind someone does not, in fact, necessarily give you control of their balance.

Katherine
Here's a quote. The body positioning being a part of "modern Aikido." No retraction warranted.
 
Old 11-14-2011, 03:33 PM   #282
kewms
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Yes you have. You have stated that body positioning does not work. Do you think people won't remember? You are simply not trying to engage in an honest discussion.
Please provide a quote, and ideally a link to the post.

If I recall correctly, I said that more than body positioning is going on. That is very different from the claim that modern aikido is fake.

Katherine
 
Old 11-14-2011, 03:35 PM   #283
kewms
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Here's a quote. The body positioning being a part of "modern Aikido." No retraction warranted.
The word "fake" does not appear in that post. The word "body positioning" does not appear in that post.

Moreover, the post is a discussion of my own personal experiences, and makes no claim about all of "modern Aikido." There are lots of things that my teachers can do that I can't. Admitting that I personally find an action challenging is certainly not the same thing as claiming that it is impossible, or that people who appear to be doing it are "faking."

I'll look forward to your retraction. Until I get it, we are done.

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 11-14-2011 at 03:39 PM.
 
Old 11-14-2011, 03:36 PM   #284
Keith Larman
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Ken, have you considered simply contacting Saotome and passing on your concerns about how so many of his high ranking people here are hanging out with Dan? I understand he (Saotome) will be teaching in Florida in December.

For the life of me I can't understand why you're getting so worked up about this here. Obviously, if you're correct, a whole lot of the very highest ranked folk here are doing stuff that is in direct violation of Saotome's teachings. If that's the case you should probably be speaking privately with the powers that be.

Of course the other option would be that maybe there is more subtlety here than your understanding of Saotome's words will allow and maybe in that case Saotome (or one of his representatives) may be able to help clarify matters for you.

Regardless, as a fella happily *not* involved with your group, it does look like you are valiantly trying to defend what you take to be the orthodoxy of your sensei. Maybe you should toss these concerns up the chain of command and let them deal with it in a quieter, more professional manner.

Honestly, untwist those knickers and let the folk who are in charge know about it. Then maybe they can provide some clarity on the issue for all involved.

But... I got no dog in this one. Carry on.

Last edited by Keith Larman : 11-14-2011 at 03:39 PM.

 
Old 11-14-2011, 03:36 PM   #285
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Please provide a quote, and ideally a link to the post.

If I recall correctly, I said that more than body positioning is going on. That is very different from the claim that modern aikido is fake.

Katherine
Doesn't work = fake. I have in no way misrepresented your meaning. You are not engaging in an honest debate. You try to distract and change the subject. You are trying to bury my response to dan in these exchanges. I'll bump it if I have to. Dan needs to retract his claims about my statements about Aikido having no relationship to the teachings of Saotome Sensei.
 
Old 11-14-2011, 03:37 PM   #286
ChrisMoses
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Great post. I made it to the end but will gladly buy YOU a tasty adult beverage should we ever meet.

Gotta say, it's kind of funny to come back to AW forums and see the SAME conversation going on that (many of us) have been having for many years now...

EDIT: this was in response to Hugh Beyer's excellent post, that wasn't clear in the quick post I did.

Last edited by ChrisMoses : 11-14-2011 at 03:40 PM. Reason: clarification

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Old 11-14-2011, 03:39 PM   #287
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

They claim that they know what Aiki should be and that modern Aikido practitioners are not engaging in. I mention a direct student of O Sensei to counter their claims about Aiki, Aikido, and O Sensei. They say my understanding of Saotome Sensei's teachings are wrong because his students train with Dan. Therefore my understanding of Aiki remains wrong. It is not I who went down this road.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Ken, have you considered simply contacting Saotome and passing on your concerns about how so many of his high ranking people here are hanging out with Dan? I understand he (Saotome) will be teaching in Florida in December.

For the life of me I can't understand why you're getting so worked up about this here. Obviously, if you're correct, a whole lot of the very highest ranked folk here are doing stuff that is in direct violation of Saotome's teachings. If that's the case you should probably be speaking privately with the powers that be.

Of course the other option would be that maybe there is more subtlety here than your understanding of Saotome's words will allow.

Regardless, as a fella happily *not* involved with your group, it does look like you are valiantly trying to defend what you take to be the orthodoxy of your sensei. Maybe you should toss these concerns up the chain of command and let them deal with it in a quieter, more professional manner.

Honestly, untwist those knickers and let the folk who are in charge know about it. Then maybe they can provide some clarity on the issue for all involved.

But... I got no dog in this one. Carry on.
 
Old 11-14-2011, 03:43 PM   #288
Marc Abrams
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Ken, have you considered simply contacting Saotome and passing on your concerns about how so many of his high ranking people here are hanging out with Dan? I understand he (Saotome) will be teaching in Florida in December.

For the life of me I can't understand why you're getting so worked up about this here. Obviously, if you're correct, a whole lot of the very highest ranked folk here are doing stuff that is in direct violation of Saotome's teachings. If that's the case you should probably be speaking privately with the powers that be.

Of course the other option would be that maybe there is more subtlety here than your understanding of Saotome's words will allow.

Regardless, as a fella happily *not* involved with your group, it does look like you are valiantly trying to defend what you take to be the orthodoxy of your sensei. Maybe you should toss these concerns up the chain of command and let them deal with it in a quieter, more professional manner.

Honestly, untwist those knickers and let the folk who are in charge know about it. Then maybe they can provide some clarity on the issue for all involved.

But... I got no dog in this one. Carry on.
Keith:

ditto. This guy is not even a direct student of Saotome Sensei and thinks that he knows enough about what Saotome Sensei says and does so as to defend his teacher's honor? I haven't seen such a clueless, hanging out of dirty/clean laundry in quite some time.... Kind of like driving by that accident on the side of the road....

Knowing Dan and some of Saotome Sensei's deshi personally, it is kind of amusing seeing how badly things can be distorted to fit someone's ill-defined, personal agenda.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 11-14-2011, 03:46 PM   #289
Keith Larman
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
They claim that they know what Aiki should be and that modern Aikido practitioners are not engaging in. I mention a direct student of O Sensei to counter their claims about Aiki, Aikido, and O Sensei. They say my understanding of Saotome Sensei's teachings are wrong because his students train with Dan. Therefore my understanding of Aiki remains wrong. It is not I who went down this road.
Yup, but all those folk are direct students of Saotome, neh? FWIW to me this looks like a gigantic poo slinging contest. And as an outsider I'll say it is rather unbecoming.

Again, many of these people you are talking about are direct and high ranked students of Saotome, the fella you're quoting to say they're wrong. I was simply suggesting that Saotome is the final "arbitrar" of right and wrong with respect to his words. Not you. Not them. Kick it up the chain and maybe they will clarify it for you all. Reading huge tomes about what Saotome "means" when he writes in relation to things Dan has written and things Saotome's direct students are doing in studying with Dan strikes me as rather silly when you could just ask the man directly.

But no need to reply to me, I ain't in your group and there's nothing in what I've learned with Dan and others that is in direct conflict with my particular branch of the Aikido lineage (Tohei offshoot). So carry on...

Last edited by Keith Larman : 11-14-2011 at 03:49 PM. Reason: removed a few things for clarity

 
Old 11-14-2011, 04:00 PM   #290
kewms
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Doesn't work = fake. I have in no way misrepresented your meaning.
Again, quote or retract.
 
Old 11-14-2011, 04:00 PM   #291
Chris Knight
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Smile Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

And pause for breath. ....
 
Old 11-14-2011, 04:20 PM   #292
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Jeez.
Well I was at the SF Seminar. We were never working on stopping anybody from doing anything, just providing just enough pressure per our partner's direction to give the partner enough of a challenge to work with but succeed - just as in good aikido training.
I am not and have never been a member of an ASU dojo. It happens the hosting dojo is an ASU dojo. I will say that the dojocho, a septuagenarian who has been training in aikido a good 50 years, was totally STOKED by the seminar, and saw nothing to contradict what Saotome Sensei or Ikeda Sensei do.

Last edited by Janet Rosen : 11-14-2011 at 04:20 PM. Reason: clarity

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Old 11-14-2011, 04:20 PM   #293
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Keith:

ditto. This guy is not even a direct student of Saotome Sensei and thinks that he knows enough about what Saotome Sensei says and does so as to defend his teacher's honor? I haven't seen such a clueless, hanging out of dirty/clean laundry in quite some time.... Kind of like driving by that accident on the side of the road....

Knowing Dan and some of Saotome Sensei's deshi personally, it is kind of amusing seeing how badly things can be distorted to fit someone's ill-defined, personal agenda.

Marc Abrams
My name is Ken.

Were Dan, Mark, and Chris direct students of Takeda Sensei, O Sensei, or Saotome Sensei? It is they and others who made various claims about their teachings. They can make claims based on written words, videos, and personal experience, but I can't. It's such a dishonest way of engaging in debate.

You'll need to read the discussion from start to finish to understand what has transpired.
 
Old 11-14-2011, 04:21 PM   #294
raul rodrigo
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Marc was talking to Keith Larman, Ken.
 
Old 11-14-2011, 04:27 PM   #295
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

"You can see from Dan's posts, which I will quote again below, that what we have here is Daito-ryu attempting to infiltrate post-war Aikido as revenge for what they took to be O Sensei's theft. The only question is whether we will help him/them to do so."

Yes, let's help him do just that.
 
Old 11-14-2011, 04:29 PM   #296
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Jeez.
Well I was at the SF Seminar. We were never working on stopping anybody from doing anything, just providing just enough pressure per our partner's direction to give the partner enough of a challenge to work with but succeed - just as in good aikido training.
I am not and have never been a member of an ASU dojo. It happens the hosting dojo is an ASU dojo. I will say that the dojocho, a septuagenarian who has been training in aikido a good 50 years, was totally STOKED by the seminar, and saw nothing to contradict what Saotome Sensei or Ikeda Sensei do.
Janet, as someone who was there, this is the closest ANYONE in all the posts I've researched going back to about 2005 has come to describing what Dan is teaching. Why not describe it to us in more detail?

I have never said that what I take Dan to be doing is contradictory to Aikido training, at least not at the level of exercise which develops skills that can be taken back into Aikido waza. Most of my posts have been in response to the claims about what and why Dan is doing what he is doing (though without detailed description provided).

You say it's complimentary and yet THEY describe it in terms that sound contradictory. Dan and Dan's supporters say that blending, leading, and body positioning are tricks and not real aiki as found in O Sensei's Aikido, why is it wrong to challenge the claim? Why is it wrong to question their evidence? Why can they cite having taken ukemi from Saotome Sensei at a seminar as if that sums him up and yet all my training with him, with his senior students, and with his teachings doesn't count?

Whether what they are doing is O Sensei's aiki, the claim that they make, should be a claim that can be tested. And it would seem to matter what the answer is. If they are right, we should all train with Dan. If they are wrong, then we may choose to train with Dan, but for different reasons than the ones he and his supporters have presented.
 
Old 11-14-2011, 04:38 PM   #297
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
]It is very unusual to ban photos and videos from seminars. Without these all we can go by are the words that Dan and others have written. If we weren't supposed to debate their ideas why did they post them in a discussion forum? I have tried very hard to follow the arguments they are making. I'm good at doing that, by the way, I teach people how to do this at the highest levels. My initial posts asking for clarification were met with indignation and demands that I read all the old posts. I did. They are confusing and hard to read. I said so. I was asked to post specific question (it wasn't my idea) and I did so. The questions were not answered. They were reasonable questions. Then the insults started.
I can't speak for this being true in the aikido world, but in many other martial arts they may be out right banned, need prior permisson, or may be considered poor form. I've been to a number of seminars in japanese sword arts where they were discouraged (by the Japanese guest instructors), and other arts where they were banned. They were banned for two seminars I hosted as well.

Seminars run by americans had a lot more liberal take on the presence of cameras.
 
Old 11-14-2011, 04:56 PM   #298
kewms
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
I can't speak for this being true in the aikido world, but in many other martial arts they may be out right banned, need prior permisson, or may be considered poor form. I've been to a number of seminars in japanese sword arts where they were discouraged (by the Japanese guest instructors), and other arts where they were banned. They were banned for two seminars I hosted as well.

Seminars run by americans had a lot more liberal take on the presence of cameras.
In the YouTube era, I think most internet-savvy teachers are concerned about how out-of-context videos can be misinterpreted. I know Ikeda Sensei, for example, refuses to sell some of his videos to anyone except seminar attendees. He's afraid that they will look fake to anyone who wasn't actually present. It's a legitimate fear: there are plenty of examples of exactly that around these boards.

Katherine
 
Old 11-14-2011, 05:02 PM   #299
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
In the YouTube era, I think most internet-savvy teachers are concerned about how out-of-context videos can be misinterpreted. I know Ikeda Sensei, for example, refuses to sell some of his videos to anyone except seminar attendees. He's afraid that they will look fake to anyone who wasn't actually present. It's a legitimate fear: there are plenty of examples of exactly that around these boards.

Katherine
Exactly. From my own posting earlier today in the thread on the SF seminar:
There is one thing I would like to address, which is the often-bandied about phrase "It has to be felt", used on aikiweb so often that it merits its own "IHTBF"
I had always taken this to mean that one has to be on the receiving end of Dan's stuff to truly gauge what it is. Now that is certainly true. But it applies just as much to the learning process.
I am lousy on learning movement in terms of really gross movement like stepping and turning. But I am one of those people who has the mixed blessing/curse of being very very sensitive to changes within my body - I've always been able to feel and relate whether a sensation or pain was coming from an organ or a muscle or something else, for instance.
So usually it is fairly easy for me to follow an instruction whether it's anatomic/physiologic, like engage your lats or do a Valsalva or more energetic, like breathe into your low back or move the heat from your head to your hands.
But there is NO WAY I could have correctly done most of what Dan was asking of us without his hands isolating on my body what to keep still/not engage and what to focus on engaging. A couple of the very basic things I was taught this wkend I still can't do but at least having had them isolated and felt, I can call upon that and focus on learning to isolate and engage.
So...yeah....videos pointless, even talking pointless....IHTBF!

***FOR PURPOSES OF CLARITY*** references to Valsalva maneuver, lats, moving heat and breathing into back are NOT references to anything Dan is doing. They are examples of things I have routinely done for years based on purely verbal instruction, so folks understand where I'm coming from.

Last edited by Janet Rosen : 11-14-2011 at 05:04 PM. Reason: clarity

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Old 11-14-2011, 05:08 PM   #300
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

I recommend all parties who feel the need to air their grievances fill out a report form and send it to Jun.
 

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