Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-12-2011, 05:10 PM   #226
Patrick Hutchinson
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 94
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

"All this machismo BS gets old"
I agree completely.
By the way, that's Bill Gleason Sensei, and Howard Popkin Sensei to you.
 
Old 11-12-2011, 06:10 PM   #227
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Ken writes: "Generally there is a tendency to stop Uke's movement and then do the technique. Dan views attempts to use Uke's energy to power the throw as ineffective and superficial. He has got it backwards. The Using of Uke's energy to such a high level was the breakthrough in Aikido. Breaking internal balance, Atemi, posture, these are all necessary at times but they are secondary to how Aikido works."

This is the point where online debate breaks down. I completely disagree with all of this, but the questions you're raising are the core and central questions of what makes Aikido. So it's a debate worth having, but a debate that's very hard to have without working with each other in person.

There are various "tricks" we can use to make our Aikido work. I regard joint locks, using momentum, using timing to lead uke off balance, as tricks. They may be effective in certain circumstances, and even worth practicing, but they aren't what I regard as the core of Aikido. (I heard one guy, who is very much into the aiki stuff--and whose name is not Dan--say that Saotome Shihan gets by with 'the trick of perfect technique.' Some trick. I wish I could pull that one off.)

I regard the core of Aikido as the center-to-center connection--making that connection instantly and using it to master the situation. I view the aiki skills as a set of concepts for understanding, a language for talking about, and exercises for practicing, that connection. I view blending as a "trick" which works only against an unskilled attack, because blending against a skilled attack leaves you being controlled by the attacker.

If your blending works--or Mary's, upthread--I'll claim that you're not purely blending but in fact have figured out how to make a connection and take balance within the movement you call blending. This is more than just semantics--I'm distinguishing two concepts and giving them labels so that we can talk about how they operate independently in practice. But until I've felt your technique I dont' know if that's what's going on or not.

Ken writes: "It [aiki] seems to be defined as grounding and breaking internal balance. Where then is the aiki in sword?"

Absolutely the same place as in taijitsu. Gleason Sensei has been teaching for a while how the same aiki principles that power taijitsu apply to sword and, in fact, have always been there. When I go back and look at his old sword videos I can absolutely see how they are manifest.

Ken, I think you're raising all the right questions. If you're seeing an attack on Aikido in the IP/aiki posts, I wish you would blend with it and irimi to engage with it. Right now, you're fighting it so hard you're making the opposition stronger and more absolute than it really is. Keep in mind most of the posts you dislike have been written by committed and sincere Aikidoka. Dan, though not an Aikidoka, works with us in sincerity and friendship at our request.

Skeptics who call bullshit when we fall into groupthink are always valuable. But it's more valuable if you know what we're actually saying and doing.
 
Old 11-12-2011, 06:35 PM   #228
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Ken writes: "Generally there is a tendency to stop Uke's movement and then do the technique. Dan views attempts to use Uke's energy to power the throw as ineffective and superficial. He has got it backwards. The Using of Uke's energy to such a high level was the breakthrough in Aikido. Breaking internal balance, Atemi, posture, these are all necessary at times but they are secondary to how Aikido works."

This is the point where online debate breaks down. I completely disagree with all of this, but the questions you're raising are the core and central questions of what makes Aikido. So it's a debate worth having, but a debate that's very hard to have without working with each other in person.

There are various "tricks" we can use to make our Aikido work. I regard joint locks, using momentum, using timing to lead uke off balance, as tricks. They may be effective in certain circumstances, and even worth practicing, but they aren't what I regard as the core of Aikido. (I heard one guy, who is very much into the aiki stuff--and whose name is not Dan--say that Saotome Shihan gets by with 'the trick of perfect technique.' Some trick. I wish I could pull that one off.)

I regard the core of Aikido as the center-to-center connection--making that connection instantly and using it to master the situation. I view the aiki skills as a set of concepts for understanding, a language for talking about, and exercises for practicing, that connection. I view blending as a "trick" which works only against an unskilled attack, because blending against a skilled attack leaves you being controlled by the attacker.

If your blending works--or Mary's, upthread--I'll claim that you're not purely blending but in fact have figured out how to make a connection and take balance within the movement you call blending. This is more than just semantics--I'm distinguishing two concepts and giving them labels so that we can talk about how they operate independently in practice. But until I've felt your technique I dont' know if that's what's going on or not.

Ken writes: "It [aiki] seems to be defined as grounding and breaking internal balance. Where then is the aiki in sword?"

Absolutely the same place as in taijitsu. Gleason Sensei has been teaching for a while how the same aiki principles that power taijitsu apply to sword and, in fact, have always been there. When I go back and look at his old sword videos I can absolutely see how they are manifest.

Ken, I think you're raising all the right questions. If you're seeing an attack on Aikido in the IP/aiki posts, I wish you would blend with it and irimi to engage with it. Right now, you're fighting it so hard you're making the opposition stronger and more absolute than it really is. Keep in mind most of the posts you dislike have been written by committed and sincere Aikidoka. Dan, though not an Aikidoka, works with us in sincerity and friendship at our request.

Skeptics who call bullshit when we fall into groupthink are always valuable. But it's more valuable if you know what we're actually saying and doing.
Here are a couple tidbits (gems) that may have relevance to parts of this post.

1. Aiki starts at home - you develop aiki within you via the balancing of yin-yang/in-yo - Ueshiba said it himself: (paraphrase) "you will never learn aiki unless you know in yo ho" (don't ask for a reference to where he said it, look for it yourself - it has been posted recently)

2. You don't blend with Uke's energy, you allow uke's energy to blend with you; then YOU control the joining of the two as one - this is as much ki blending as a physical blending - actually, more ki

3. Once you have created aiki within you, everything that touches you becomes part of you and is controlled by you; this includes sword and jo, and whatever.

Oh, one other thing, this ALL so soft and natural, you should not even break a sweat

Greg
 
Old 11-12-2011, 06:48 PM   #229
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
So. You are taking a stand against the Evil Dan Conspiracy because he questions aikido ukemi? Seriously?

Katherine
I luv it, what a great idea! We will make up some T-shirts, black with skull and crossbones on it and the tag: "EDC, Coming to a Dojo near you Soon!"

I think we will start the campaign in Alabama - we will ride into town on our 'hogs' - "we be Bad to the Bone, young girls will squeal, old women will blush, and Sandans will be crushed"

Gawd, I really miss the old days when you could get away with stuff like this

Greg
 
Old 11-12-2011, 07:10 PM   #230
azrielg
Dojo: Shobu of Boston
Location: Cambridge, MA
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 14
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Here are a couple tidbits (gems) that may have relevance to parts of this post.

1. Aiki starts at home - you develop aiki within you via the balancing of yin-yang/in-yo - Ueshiba said it himself: (paraphrase) "you will never learn aiki unless you know in yo ho" (don't ask for a reference to where he said it, look for it yourself - it has been posted recently)

2. You don't blend with Uke's energy, you allow uke's energy to blend with you; then YOU control the joining of the two as one - this is as much ki blending as a physical blending - actually, more ki

3. Once you have created aiki within you, everything that touches you becomes part of you and is controlled by you; this includes sword and jo, and whatever.

Oh, one other thing, this ALL so soft and natural, you should not even break a sweat

Greg
Amen.
 
Old 11-12-2011, 07:27 PM   #231
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 680
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I regard the core of Aikido as the center-to-center connection--making that connection instantly and using it to master the situation.
Hi Hugh -

No argument there, center-to-center connection is a core concept of Aikido.

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
If your blending works--or Mary's, upthread--I'll claim that you're not purely blending but in fact have figured out how to make a connection and take balance within the movement you call blending. This is more than just semantics--I'm distinguishing two concepts and giving them labels so that we can talk about how they operate independently in practice.
I don't know Ken so I am not speaking for him, but since Mary and I train together regularly I'll take a stab at speaking for the both of us (I'm sure that if I mess up she'll step right in and set me straight). Blending motions and center-to-center connection are separate skill sets as you have pointed out. We develop connection skills primarily via Ki exercises practiced both solo and with a partner. Blending skills are honed during technique training which also allows us to apply connection skills while in motion. I see taking balance as more a result of successful blending and the establishment of a solid connection to uke's center rather than a concept.

Best,

Ron

 
Old 11-12-2011, 08:12 PM   #232
Ken McGrew
Dojo: Aikido at UAB
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 202
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Hugh, it would be very helpful if you would explain how what I'm describing as Dan's approach is incorrect. in fact, why not just describe what you are doing?

From the photos I found it looks like what Dan is working on are grounding and breaking balance internally exercises. Looks like this is being done in slow movement or soft static training. Grounding and breaking balance internally are obviously good skills. It's hard to do a technique like Sanyo for example without being grounded. It's much better to down an Uke from shiho Nage by unbalancing him than by cranking the wrists or elbow. I also recognize the ability demonstrated on the Daito-ryu video of neutralizing the attacker so they cannot continue the attack. These are all things I train.

I take issue with the idea that these are the only significant sides to Aiki or Aikido. I also take issue with an approach to ukemi that breaks the system of training that O Sensei developed. The way this get's translated to waza is to stop Uke and then do something TO Uke. This is not ideal. If someone grabs you in a strong static manner it may be very difficult to move them. If they give even a little energy (and real attacks always have energy) then it is very easy to move them. If you connect with Uke as if to do irimi Nage or Ikyo and move around him to the back in ura far enough this movement alone will be enough to break his balance. It's an extreme example but it makes the point. Not everything in Aikido is or should be about grounding and breaking internal balance.

Your description of blending and connecting with the center is not what Dan has claimed at times. In general what you describe sounds correct. But it should not sound correct to Dan. In no touch aikido and sword work If ther is no physical connection then the connection to the center is either a trick to lead the mind or else is a Ki connection. Dan doesn't believe, apparently, in Ki. Sowhatistheconnection? In sword the idea often is to get the strike to come then move to a safe place before countering. Aiki has to do with a certain presense and sensing when and how to respond.

The claims that have been made are not just that most Aikido needs more grounding and internal balance taking. The argument that has been made is that O Sensei was doing this body development and inner connection unbalancing, that everyone in aikido missed this and are doing fake fall down for no reason or else overcome resistance with strength Aikido, that what O Sensei was doing was Daito-ryu, and that he was not and would not be happy with modern Aikido. Dan has made his agenda very clear in his posts.

These claims contradict what O'Sensei said, what he wrote, what his students said, and what the videos show. Dan's supporters know this. So to overcome this they argue that the translations are so bad they are completely unreliable, that O Sensei did not teach after the war, and that its obvious from the videos that we was doing Diato-ryu. Finally they argue that everything I've stated has been disproven in earlier settled debates.

They just don't prove their claims. Most Aikido practices do not concede the things they claim. In fact, many teachers who train with Adan continue to argue for Ki and a spiritual basis in Aikido. It's not surprising that people don't respond to their claims given their responses to my questioning them. The translations of O Sensei have not been proven to show what they are unreliable or change the trajectory of his teachings. Finally, there is the problem of the direct students of O Sensei telling a different story. We know from people who were there that O Sensei was instructing and supervising. We know that he approved of the Aikido of several students including Saotome Sensei. We also know much of how O Sensei describe the source and practice of Aikido from teachers like Saotome Sensei who have conveyed their experiences to us. We know, for example, that Saotome Sensei isn't doing a trick that is different than what O Sensei did and wanted done because O Sensei told him that he was pleased with his Aikido.

People can do what they want with Dan. It doesn't concern me. The claims to Aikido that they, and you, are making should be challenged. I do so out of respect for O Sensei and various teachers after him.

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Ken writes: "Generally there is a tendency to stop Uke's movement and then do the technique. Dan views attempts to use Uke's energy to power the throw as ineffective and superficial. He has got it backwards. The Using of Uke's energy to such a high level was the breakthrough in Aikido. Breaking internal balance, Atemi, posture, these are all necessary at times but they are secondary to how Aikido works."

This is the point where online debate breaks down. I completely disagree with all of this, but the questions you're raising are the core and central questions of what makes Aikido. So it's a debate worth having, but a debate that's very hard to have without working with each other in person.

There are various "tricks" we can use to make our Aikido work. I regard joint locks, using momentum, using timing to lead uke off balance, as tricks. They may be effective in certain circumstances, and even worth practicing, but they aren't what I regard as the core of Aikido. (I heard one guy, who is very much into the aiki stuff--and whose name is not Dan--say that Saotome Shihan gets by with 'the trick of perfect technique.' Some trick. I wish I could pull that one off.)

I regard the core of Aikido as the center-to-center connection--making that connection instantly and using it to master the situation. I view the aiki skills as a set of concepts for understanding, a language for talking about, and exercises for practicing, that connection. I view blending as a "trick" which works only against an unskilled attack, because blending against a skilled attack leaves you being controlled by the attacker.

If your blending works--or Mary's, upthread--I'll claim that you're not purely blending but in fact have figured out how to make a connection and take balance within the movement you call blending. This is more than just semantics--I'm distinguishing two concepts and giving them labels so that we can talk about how they operate independently in practice. But until I've felt your technique I dont' know if that's what's going on or not.

Ken writes: "It [aiki] seems to be defined as grounding and breaking internal balance. Where then is the aiki in sword?"

Absolutely the same place as in taijitsu. Gleason Sensei has been teaching for a while how the same aiki principles that power taijitsu apply to sword and, in fact, have always been there. When I go back and look at his old sword videos I can absolutely see how they are manifest.

Ken, I think you're raising all the right questions. If you're seeing an attack on Aikido in the IP/aiki posts, I wish you would blend with it and irimi to engage with it. Right now, you're fighting it so hard you're making the opposition stronger and more absolute than it really is. Keep in mind most of the posts you dislike have been written by committed and sincere Aikidoka. Dan, though not an Aikidoka, works with us in sincerity and friendship at our request.

Skeptics who call bullshit when we fall into groupthink are always valuable. But it's more valuable if you know what we're actually saying and doing.
 
Old 11-12-2011, 08:27 PM   #233
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Hugh, in Bill Gleason's sword DVD, he speaks of waza and sword movement in terms of things like fire ki, water ki, and mudras. How well (or not) does the new IS paradigm fit over the old Japanese religious language that he used in the video? Or a line like "The vertical plane is the plane of non resistance." How has his teaching language changed over the last few years?
 
Old 11-12-2011, 08:43 PM   #234
Ken McGrew
Dojo: Aikido at UAB
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 202
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

I forgot to mention the related concept of body positioning by which Uke is unbalanced from the attack when Nage moves at the last moment to a place that is not what Uke expected. I assume this is also considered a non Aikido non Aiki trick?
 
Old 11-12-2011, 09:35 PM   #235
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

I won't attempt to speak for either of my teachers, or for whatever community is referred to in "I assume this is also considered a non Aikido non Aiki trick?"

Speaking for myself, I consider it a non-aiki trick "when Nage moves at the last moment to a place that is not what Uke expected". It's a cute piece of timing, fun to do, worth practicing, sometimes effective. But will it work against an attacker who knows how to stay on balance even during the attack? Who knows how to follow up with a second attack without pause?

People have said it already and I'll say it again: Aiki training doesn't replace Aikido. You can still do all your fun tricks and big throws. It's never going to be the only tool in your bag. But I do believe it's a critical tool.

Ken says, "The way this get's translated to waza is to stop Uke and then do something TO Uke. This is not ideal." -- No, it's not. It's also not what anybody is teaching on on the IP/aiki side of things, so far as I know. You may be right that it's what's happening in your Daito-Ryu video. It's not what anybody is trying to import into Aikido.

Ron, I pretty much agree that breaking balance is a consequence of proper connection, rather than a primary consideration. And if by "blending" you mean "not opposing uke's power" I can agree with that part too.

Here's an example that may help: Consider responding to yokumenuchi with a shihonage. As I was originally taught the movement, you "attack the attack," delivering atemi with, say, the right hand while blocking the attack with the left and guiding that hand in front of you into the shihonage grip. When you blend, as I understood the term, the block becomes less and less forceful until you're just matching the strike, leading it forward in the direction it's already going, and redirecting it. You can even lead the movement a bit, encouraging uke to strike a little further than they meant to, bringing them off balance even before you engage.

So far so good. And are we not manifesting yin/yang or in-yo-ho? Our right side goes forward in yang; our left receives in yin. We rotate around our center.

But according to my current understanding, this is not in-yo-ho. Though we are turning, we've built up angular momentum which has to be overcome if we want to stop or change direction. That momentum restricts our ability to respond to changes in the situation.

As I'm now practicing the movement, the right hand spirals out while the left coils in. Each arm balances in/yo in itself; each side of the body balances in/yo in itself. Externally, the movement looks very similar; internally it's very different. If I want to stop the movement right in the middle I can do it just by stopping; there's no momentum to overcome because all movement is from center. And uke is unbalanced from the first moment of touching because I'm not aligning to and accommodating his strike; I'm receiving it into my center, at which point it becomes part of my centered self.

Gleason Sensei and fire/water/heaven/earth mudras: Fascinating question. I see many correlations, including ways that basic aiki principles and concepts lead naturally to the mudras, so that they become an effect of correct movement rather than a cause. There's probably a unified field theory here, showing how aiki, mudras, and kotodama all manifest the same underlying principles. But that's above my pay grade.
 
Old 11-12-2011, 09:42 PM   #236
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

For ASU folks who have come late to the IS/IP party: take a look at George Ledyard's blog article from 2009 (http://aikieast.blogspot.com/2009/10...-aikido.html):

"Starting with the first Aiki Expo, almost ten years ago now, Aikido practitioners were exposed to a number of practitioners of what we will call "aiki arts" whose skill level seemed far beyond many of the Japanese teachers, both in Japan and overseas, who had become identified with post war Aikido. It was also clear that many of these teachers had a far more effective methodology for transmitting their knowledge than the teachers from the Aikido community as a whole."

"...So what will happen as more and more people start to be exposed to another paradigm concerning their art? What will people think when they find that what they'd been told about Daito Ryu, our parent art, simply wasn't true; that there were other teachers equally skilled in "aiki" as the Founder; that there are teachers of "aiki" from outside the Aikido community whose skills match or even exceed any of the top teachers we hold as models, that with proper instruction and hard work, it doesn't have to take thirty years or more to develop an understanding of high level principles?"

"I can guarantee that there is not universal rejoicing over this new direction. Remember what we said about change? People don't like it. The fact that you have recovered your Beginner's Mind for the first time in decades may be great for you nut it is not, in the minds of many students, what they are looking for in their guru. You are supposed to be the source for them. For as much as two or more decades some of them have been doing their level best to be you. Some of them have gotten pretty close and a certain status and authority has derived from that. Then you go and start showing everybody a whole new paradigm at which the most senior instructor at the dojo isn't any better than the new guys. What do you expect them to say? "gee. I am so glad to get back to the place I was in my Aikido 20 years ago when I couldn't do anything and felt like an idiot all the time." Of course not. I would actually predict an inverse relationship between who receptive folks will be to this sudden change of direction and how long they have trained. This is exactly what has happened in one dojo with which I am familiar."
 
Old 11-12-2011, 10:12 PM   #237
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,817
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Raul, good search posting. i mentioned before that ego is a strange thing, often show up at unexpected places and at the most inopportune moment, quite aiki that ego. it's often standing guard at the gate of shoshin and at the buffet line.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
 
Old 11-12-2011, 10:26 PM   #238
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
For ASU folks who have come late to the IS/IP party: take a look at George Ledyard's blog article from 2009 (http://aikieast.blogspot.com/2009/10...-aikido.html):

"Starting with the first Aiki Expo, almost ten years ago now, Aikido practitioners were exposed to a number of practitioners of what we will call "aiki arts" whose skill level seemed far beyond many of the Japanese teachers, both in Japan and overseas, who had become identified with post war Aikido. It was also clear that many of these teachers had a far more effective methodology for transmitting their knowledge than the teachers from the Aikido community as a whole."

"...So what will happen as more and more people start to be exposed to another paradigm concerning their art? What will people think when they find that what they'd been told about Daito Ryu, our parent art, simply wasn't true; that there were other teachers equally skilled in "aiki" as the Founder; that there are teachers of "aiki" from outside the Aikido community whose skills match or even exceed any of the top teachers we hold as models, that with proper instruction and hard work, it doesn't have to take thirty years or more to develop an understanding of high level principles?"

"I can guarantee that there is not universal rejoicing over this new direction. Remember what we said about change? People don't like it. The fact that you have recovered your Beginner's Mind for the first time in decades may be great for you nut it is not, in the minds of many students, what they are looking for in their guru. You are supposed to be the source for them. For as much as two or more decades some of them have been doing their level best to be you. Some of them have gotten pretty close and a certain status and authority has derived from that. Then you go and start showing everybody a whole new paradigm at which the most senior instructor at the dojo isn't any better than the new guys. What do you expect them to say? "gee. I am so glad to get back to the place I was in my Aikido 20 years ago when I couldn't do anything and felt like an idiot all the time." Of course not. I would actually predict an inverse relationship between who receptive folks will be to this sudden change of direction and how long they have trained. This is exactly what has happened in one dojo with which I am familiar."
Some nice points - thanks

Greg
 
Old 11-13-2011, 12:46 AM   #239
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 998
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
Hugh, in Bill Gleason's sword DVD, he speaks of waza and sword movement in terms of things like fire ki, water ki, and mudras. How well (or not) does the new IS paradigm fit over the old Japanese religious language that he used in the video? Or a line like "The vertical plane is the plane of non resistance." How has his teaching language changed over the last few years?
I was just on the mat with him today. I would say that he has largely integrated his IS work with his grounding in Japanese mysticism, and is to some extent returning to the teaching language he was using 5-7 years ago. The IS work seems to provide a vocabulary for tying somewhat esoteric ideas to physical realities.

Up-thread, it was implied that he is no longer doing aikido. I can only assume that such a comment comes from profound ignorance of what he is actually doing, since what I felt today was as "aikido-like" as you're likely to encounter anywhere.

(Full disclosure: Though I no longer train at his dojo, I did for quite a few years. So I'm quite biased. And, of course, I do not pretend to speak for him, just for my own on-mat experience.)

Katherine
 
Old 11-13-2011, 12:57 AM   #240
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 998
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
3. Once you have created aiki within you, everything that touches you becomes part of you and is controlled by you; this includes sword and jo, and whatever.
And includes uke.

I think this is the "unity" that Ikeda Sensei talks about, also.

Katherine
 
Old 11-13-2011, 01:02 AM   #241
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 998
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
I forgot to mention the related concept of body positioning by which Uke is unbalanced from the attack when Nage moves at the last moment to a place that is not what Uke expected. I assume this is also considered a non Aikido non Aiki trick?
I don't care what you call it, but there's a lot more to it than body positioning. This is one of those aikido moves that often doesn't work with ukes from other arts (or, often, other dojos). You can get completely different results if uke is really trying to hit you.

Katherine
 
Old 11-13-2011, 02:16 AM   #242
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 998
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
I also take issue with an approach to ukemi that breaks the system of training that O Sensei developed.
I posted my comments on ukemi upthread. You have not responded. Please do so. I remain unclear as to what you are actually objecting to, and so am unable to comment further.

Katherine
 
Old 11-13-2011, 02:29 AM   #243
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 998
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
If they give even a little energy (and real attacks always have energy) then it is very easy to move them. If you connect with Uke as if to do irimi Nage or Ikyo and move around him to the back in ura far enough this movement alone will be enough to break his balance.
Go ahead, try it. Find a person with training time equivalent to your own from the striking art of your choice and perform ikkyo or irimi nage against a tsuki attack. You may limit their initial attack to a straight punch to your choice of targets, but may not otherwise constrain their movement, including followup strikes, if any. (That is, you can't tell them to behave like an aikido-trained uke would.) Please report your experiences, with video.

Alternatively, find an equally competent judoka and do the same experiment from a basic shoulder grab.

I'm not saying you can't. I'm not saying you can. I don't know you. I just want to know what happens, and how you experience the connection between you and your partner.

Katherine
 
Old 11-13-2011, 05:03 AM   #244
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Thanks for your responses regarding Bill Gleason, Hugh and Katherine. Hugh: Yes, it's a question that's above my pay grade too.
 
Old 11-13-2011, 05:11 AM   #245
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Again from George Ledyard's blog, 2009, http://aikieast.blogspot.com/2009/06...training.html:

"The major players influencing the Aikido community right now are as follows:

Ushiro Kenji from Japan - Head of Shindo Ryu Karate
Vladimir Vasiliev (Toronto) and Michael Ryabko (Moscow) of the Systema
Akuzawa Minoru - Head of the Aunkai
Dan Harden (USA) - major influence Daito Ryu
Mike Sigman (USA) - Chinese Martial Arts
Howard Popkin (USA) - Daito Ryu Roppokai"

"Let me say, first and foremost that I believe that training with any of these teachers will drastically alter ones take on Aikido in a positive way. I would not voluntarily pass up any opportunity to train with one of them if I could help it."
 
Old 11-13-2011, 05:18 AM   #246
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

George Ledyard ends the blog post thus:

"I think that in terms of pure accessibility Dan Harden and Mike Sigman may be the best to connect with in the sense that each has his own system, neither is beholden to anyone and can teach whatever and whomever he wishes, both are native English speakers and are extremely accomplished at offering systematic explanation of complex principles."

"This is a very simplistic synopsis. Each of these teachers offers enough to keep any serious Aikido student busy for years. Each teaches things that are either absent from most Aikido or at least are not taught in any systematic form. The exposure to these teachers and systems is transforming Aikido in a positive manner and I eagerly await the time in a few more years when this exposure has had time to turn into something really deep."

If you have some problems with the things you are reading in this thread, then please take them up with the above-named rokudan in your own ASU, because he is saying the same things.

I have a feeling you won't be so quick to sling a retort like "Debate over" at George Ledyard.

Then get back us on Aikiweb and we will pick this discussion up from there.

R
 
Old 11-13-2011, 06:55 AM   #247
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,213
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Go ahead, try it. Find a person with training time equivalent to your own from the striking art of your choice and perform ikkyo or irimi nage against a tsuki attack. You may limit their initial attack to a straight punch to your choice of targets, but may not otherwise constrain their movement, including followup strikes, if any. (That is, you can't tell them to behave like an aikido-trained uke would.) Please report your experiences, with video.

Alternatively, find an equally competent judoka and do the same experiment from a basic shoulder grab.

I'm not saying you can't. I'm not saying you can. I don't know you. I just want to know what happens, and how you experience the connection between you and your partner.

Katherine
Why would one do this? What would it show? Has it happened to you?

 
Old 11-13-2011, 07:15 AM   #248
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Quote:
Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
I forgot to mention the related concept of body positioning by which Uke is unbalanced from the attack when Nage moves at the last moment to a place that is not what Uke expected. I assume this is also considered a non Aikido non Aiki trick?
I don't care what you call it, but there's a lot more to it than body positioning. This is one of those aikido moves that often doesn't work with ukes from other arts (or, often, other dojos). You can get completely different results if uke is really trying to hit you.

Katherine
In Daitoryu, we don't move to evade away from the attack, we move in to attack the attack - has a very interesting effect on uke

Greg
 
Old 11-13-2011, 11:07 AM   #249
Mark Mueller
Location: Louisville Kentucky
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 163
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

"In Daitoryu, we don't move to evade away from the attack, we move in to attack the attack - has a very interesting effect on uke "

Greg, That is interesting. That is one of the main principals I teach...I never did like the term "getting of the line"...I have always called it "Redefining the Line of Attack".
 
Old 11-13-2011, 11:13 AM   #250
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Mark Mueller wrote: View Post
"In Daitoryu, we don't move to evade away from the attack, we move in to attack the attack - has a very interesting effect on uke "

Greg, That is interesting. That is one of the main principals I teach...I never did like the term "getting of the line"...I have always called it "Redefining the Line of Attack".
Yes, make it your line and not Uke's - of course it is very short lived, since as soon as YOU contact uke, their balance is gone and the attack is over

Greg
 

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 18 Peter Goldsbury Columns 187 09-08-2011 03:41 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 17 Peter Goldsbury Columns 41 06-03-2010 10:46 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 14 Peter Goldsbury Columns 38 08-01-2009 12:19 AM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 10 Peter Goldsbury Columns 200 02-04-2009 07:45 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:06 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate