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Old 10-31-2011, 02:30 PM   #1651
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
If someone attempts to strike me it's an assault. That's a matter of the law. The subject can go to jail. The amount of force I get to use to defend myself is directly related to the threat. The definition of a deadly force situation is one that involves a threat of serious, lasting, bodily harm. Technically, that could mean almost any physical threat since any number of people have been either killed or seriously injured by a single blow. Realistically, there is no objective way of articulating the perception of threat. It is entirely situational. The standard in the US is the "reasonable man" standard. In other words, what would the hypothetical "reasonable man" believe the threat to be. It would vary based on size differential, sex, number of attackers, training, etc. Whatever you do has to be articulated to a jury and it has to be believable to them. That's how the law works here.

Judging intent before the blow comes is not only difficult, it's highly risky. There have been a number of instances in which a single blow killed the person who received the strike. Yo are not required by law to put yourself at risk in order to be "reasonable". In other words, if a guy throws a punch at me, I can and should do whatever is "reasonable" to end that threat. Unless I am convinced utterly that the assailant is incompetent and that responding with less force than I am capable of delivering will keep me safe, I am legally allowed to do what I need to to end the threat. As a civilian I am required to remove myself if that's possible. That's called pre-clusion and it's required of anyone except for law enforcement and security folks who are required to go towards the threat rather than away from it.

But if you can articulate that no "reasonable" escape could be made, then you can do what is "reasonable" to end the threat. Under-response to a given threat places one at great risk. The idea that a guy throwing a punch at you is a scuffle rather than a fight is absurd. First, it's legally an assault. Second, if you are waiting for a second or third blow before you decide what the intention was behind the assault you are simply asking to wake up in a hospital. Predatory types practice ending the fight with one blow. You don't recover from the first one. Unless you are "my psychic friend" I don't think you are going to be able to decide before it's on what level of intention the other guy or guys really has.

An attack is an attack. It's a fight if I don't end it instantly. What I choose to do with that situation depends entirely on how I "feel" about it. That's the law, here anyway.
Yep. That's why we classify events afterwards and why discussions of this kind of thing are invariably in the past tense; it's only then that we can discern our attackers intention.
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:35 PM   #1652
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Check your statistics. Total number of robberies and aggravated assaults combined in the US last year was around a million. Only about half of robberies were on the street or in vehicles (as opposed to residences or businesses), and only about a quarter of aggravated assaults were weapon less. So your notion of "millions" of mugging victims just isn't accurate.

In any case, I've argued all along that real situations -- especially "fights" -- are too rare to justify the time people spend worrying about them.

Katherine
I was talking globally, the world is bigger than America. Oh yeah, fights are extreamly rare but if we're talking about the effectiveness of a martial art then we have to stick to examples of actual fights not just any violent encounter. It's simple really, if they had no intention of putting up a fight you can't really call it a fight; most instances of violence are rather aimed at achieving or demonstrating dominance and inducing compliance, much like a parent hitting a child, than an outright attempt to cause serious harm and these type of situations IMHO aren't all that useful for assessing the effectiveness of an art.
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Old 10-31-2011, 03:15 PM   #1653
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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I was talking globally, the world is bigger than America. Oh yeah, fights are extreamly rare but if we're talking about the effectiveness of a martial art then we have to stick to examples of actual fights not just any violent encounter. It's simple really, if they had no intention of putting up a fight you can't really call it a fight; most instances of violence are rather aimed at achieving or demonstrating dominance and inducing compliance, much like a parent hitting a child, than an outright attempt to cause serious harm and these type of situations IMHO aren't all that useful for assessing the effectiveness of an art.
Again, ridiculous.

By your definition, domestic violence is irrelevant to discussions of martial effectiveness, even though domestic violence is by far the most likely violent situation most women will encounter.

By your definition, situations where the martial artist's skill prevented escalation are irrelevant, even though dissuading potential attackers is an important strategic goal for every martial thinker since Sun Tsu.

And by your definition, situations where the martial artist managed to disengage and retreat are irrelevant, even though retreating under fire is far more difficult than staying and taking a beating.

I'm especially impressed by your ability to read an attacker's motives: it isn't a fight if the attacker runs, because clearly they couldn't have been that serious in the first place. Cindy Hayashi tells a story of how she fended off a pair of assailants who were serious enough to have already put three women in the hospital that night.... but that example is irrelevant by your definition.

I give up.

Katherine
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Old 10-31-2011, 03:26 PM   #1654
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
I was talking globally, the world is bigger than America. Oh yeah, fights are extreamly rare but if we're talking about the effectiveness of a martial art then we have to stick to examples of actual fights not just any violent encounter. It's simple really, if they had no intention of putting up a fight you can't really call it a fight; most instances of violence are rather aimed at achieving or demonstrating dominance and inducing compliance, much like a parent hitting a child, than an outright attempt to cause serious harm and these type of situations IMHO aren't all that useful for assessing the effectiveness of an art.
I don't necessarily agree. There have been many instances, more than any actual fight I have been in....where I felt my experiences in martial training have helped me avoid some bad situations. Timing, Space, Distance, the ability to read the situation and act in such a way that caused the potential person/persons to NOT do something I feel has been a great benefit. Not discounting all of what you say, but I believe that there are many examples of situations that did not involve any actual physical violence that can be used to assess the effectiveness of one's training.

I say "effectiveness of one's training" vice "effectiveness of an art". I think there is an important distinction as to me you can't assess the effectiveness of an art...only the effectiveness of people in various situations. What one person does with his/her training in a particular "art" or "style" may result in a completely different result. By focusing on the art you end up in these endless arguments that are quite nebulous and don't actually produce any constructive feedback!

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Old 10-31-2011, 04:17 PM   #1655
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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I don't necessarily agree. There have been many instances, more than any actual fight I have been in....where I felt my experiences in martial training have helped me avoid some bad situations. Timing, Space, Distance, the ability to read the situation and act in such a way that caused the potential person/persons to NOT do something I feel has been a great benefit. Not discounting all of what you say, but I believe that there are many examples of situations that did not involve any actual physical violence that can be used to assess the effectiveness of one's training.

I say "effectiveness of one's training" vice "effectiveness of an art". I think there is an important distinction as to me you can't assess the effectiveness of an art...only the effectiveness of people in various situations. What one person does with his/her training in a particular "art" or "style" may result in a completely different result. By focusing on the art you end up in these endless arguments that are quite nebulous and don't actually produce any constructive feedback!
Yeah I see where you're coming from but you're a little a head of me; I'm just arguing over the definition of a fight really. I'm not arguing for the ineffectiveness of Aikido or the other useful things picked up in training, I'm just saying that if we're talking about fighting we shouldn't dramatise every possible physical interaction post hoc and put them on a par with a serious incident where there was actual intention to cause real lasting harm.

I think we have to be very rigourous in what we ascribe to the art, if indeed we ascribe anything to it, and I think ascribing effectiveness to Aikido based on situations which untrained people usually walk away from totally unscathed doesn't strike me as rigourous.
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Old 10-31-2011, 06:05 PM   #1656
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Again, ridiculous.

By your definition, domestic violence is irrelevant to discussions of martial effectiveness, even though domestic violence is by far the most likely violent situation most women will encounter.

By your definition, situations where the martial artist's skill prevented escalation are irrelevant, even though dissuading potential attackers is an important strategic goal for every martial thinker since Sun Tsu.

And by your definition, situations where the martial artist managed to disengage and retreat are irrelevant, even though retreating under fire is far more difficult than staying and taking a beating.

I'm especially impressed by your ability to read an attacker's motives: it isn't a fight if the attacker runs, because clearly they couldn't have been that serious in the first place. Cindy Hayashi tells a story of how she fended off a pair of assailants who were serious enough to have already put three women in the hospital that night.... but that example is irrelevant by your definition.

I give up.

Katherine
Put it this way. Martial arts are seldom strategic though, they are tactical. If you were asked which army was better, the army of Wu, Han or Wei and Wei was commanded by Sun Tzu and never fought you could never say how good Wei was at actual fighting, because it was never pressure tested. If Wu and Han fought each other and Han achieved a kill ratio of 4:1 then you could say that Han was superior.

Domestic violence counts if an Aikidoka was seriously attacked with the intention to do harm and the Aikidoka won, not avoided the violence, not got their partner to stop but actually dealt with the violence leading to the Aikidoka being in a dominant position.

Cindy's story, as you've briefly outlined it, doesn't say anything of the attackers willingess to fight; let me explain: I play paintball, I'm part of a rather small squad that plays as a semi-independent part of a larger team, we're never more than 3% of the force so nearly everywhere we go on the field we can expect to be outnumbered. Most campaign days that we play we achieve 30-50% of the team's score.

We cannot win most firefights: most other squads are very much bigger than us and better equipped than us; so we're always ready to go into a disengagement drill and run like hell. No squad on the field is as avoident of firefights than ours; the most used command in our squad is "peel".
That said we have missions to complete: places that need to be taken and held, objects and people to be escorted and recovered, and stuff that needs to be blown up, all of which is invariably the other side of one hundred to three hundred fairly competant opposing players most of which have markers that put down thirty balls a second. How do we do it?

Simple we pick our targets carefully, we choose our routes in and out carefully, when we reach the objective we recce it well, we plan our attacks well, we're nearly certain that we're going to win because we know that the opposition will have a tough job of fighting back. Most of the time this means we win, they don't often get a chance to fight back but sometimes we come royally unstuck. Sometimes they start fighting back and we don't stick around to find out who's going to win the firefight, we start doing what we do best: run away. We foxtrot oscar alpha siera alpha papa, we're like the three little piggies all the way home, with guns.

So yeah sure those guys put three women in hospital and then they came unstuck at that time and place just like my squad they do not engage people that are willing to fight; they had no intention of tangling with people that were going to stand up to them; it's seldom worth it.
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Old 11-10-2011, 08:01 AM   #1657
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

To comment on the UFC and nhb stuff, I don't know if this has already been said and I don't watch UFC much but am i not right in saying that wrist grabs and locks are not allowed? Hardly makes it no holds barred, and rules out quite a few techniques from an aikido point on view.... So sort of unfair to say aikido isn't effective in there.

Last edited by MarcD : 11-10-2011 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 11-10-2011, 08:11 AM   #1658
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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I don't watch UFC much but am i not right in saying that wrist grabs and locks are not allowes? Hardly makes it no holds barred
Wrist grabs are actually very common when competitors clinch against the cage. Joint locks attacking the wrist is perfectly legal (and shoulders, elbows, ankles, knees, neck etc).
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Old 11-10-2011, 08:22 AM   #1659
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Marc,

Wrist grabs and wrist locks are totally legal.

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Old 11-10-2011, 10:00 AM   #1660
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

ah, my bad I thought I heard somewhere wrist locks were not allowed, only elbow shoulder etc.
Like I said I dont watch it very much.
Sorry :P
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Old 11-10-2011, 12:06 PM   #1661
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I'm gonna go and simplify this argument as much as possible. Saying any art form is ineffective is similar to saying Van Gogh should have used crayons instead of paint in my opinion.

If you prefer a different analogy, take it from Eric Clapton. "It's in the way that you use it."
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Old 11-10-2011, 12:28 PM   #1662
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Marc Dunlop wrote: View Post
ah, my bad I thought I heard somewhere wrist locks were not allowed, only elbow shoulder etc.
Well, it is the typical propaganda from some people who, for validating his practise, prefer to spread bs about other styles/arts instead of telling the facts as they are.

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Old 11-10-2011, 04:26 PM   #1663
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

The aiki principles and the techniques used in Aikido date back to the times of Feudal Japan, times when those techniques were invented to be used in the battlefield as practical methods of survival among warriors.They were not invented by O'sensei, or even Sokaku Takeda but they were a legacy of their "ancestors in martial arts" the samurai and even more back in time the classic bushi.Armed, unarmed and any other possible combination was practiced daily due to the need of survival, not the need to impose one's ego in a ring or a cage as a "violent sport".Therefore, they shouldn't be compared to fighting sports, or having the label of a new age "mumbo jumbo". One man's mumbo jumbo, is another man's science. When those techniques and fighting methods were invented people didn't know about...new age. Any question about whether they work or not, is actually out of the...question. They were made to work, or they wouldn't be studied for use in the battlefield by the samurai, whose whole life was centered around fighting. To invent the "ultimate fighting method" of the...week in the form of MMA, kick-boxing,boxing e.t.c has happened before, it's just a trend.But to compare real martial arts to fighting sports...beats the hell out of me! They have different values,different approach and different purpose, i see no ground for comparisons.
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Old 11-10-2011, 04:52 PM   #1664
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

The problem for me is that you can't use the past context of feudal japan to validate your personal study or to validate a methodology or style. It is about the teacher and his or her background or experience and about what they can teach you that makes it effective.

There are plenty of schools out there that draw "lineage" that are complete crap.

the bottom line is that there is much we can learn from MMA if we look at it the correct way in the proper context. IMO if you don't understand this or realize this, then you don't know as much as you think you do and need to step back and evaluate your paradigm and expand it a bit more.

Also what was developed in many cases to work on the battlefields of yesterday are not maybe the best use of our time today if our concerns are "effectiveness".

That said, Ido think it is important to preseve koryu systems so we have a historical context in which to reflect on our own modern context.

Aikido is not koryu by any stretch of the imagination and IMo to use the logic that because Aikido was derived from koryu means it is tactically sound and relevant is a dangerous ground to be on.

Fighting and effectiveness is complex and requires training in much different was than most of us really have the time, money, or concern to study.

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Old 11-10-2011, 05:13 PM   #1665
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
The aiki principles and the techniques used in Aikido date back to the times of Feudal Japan, times when those techniques were invented to be used in the battlefield as practical methods of survival among warriors.
Feudal Japan battlefiels consisted in thousands of guys firing arrows and muskets and wielding spears, pikes and halberds. Some grappling with daggers when things went totally wrong and not much more.

Aikido techniques and tactics do not make sense in the battlefield.

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Old 11-11-2011, 03:13 AM   #1666
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Demetrio, good to see you posting!

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the things we learn in aikido do not make sense on the battlefield today. I think alot of what we do in aikido does make sense provided that we understand our environment and what it is that we need to do in it. I personally feel my training in aikido has provided some relevance.

That said, the low level discussions that take place concerning the "effectiveness of aikido" that categorically try and validate aikido do not do us any good, and much of the logic that is used such as "it was derived from battlefield arts of yore" to validate it are a stretch indeed.

We have to validate, each of us, our own training, instructors, and methods of training...for ourselves. We have to take ownership of it and develop our own criteria for doing so.

The problem is that most of us in a civilized world do not have the background or the framework in place in order to do this properly so we look to historical context or external "authorities" in order to make our decisions. IMO, much of this is wrong.

Many of the things that we done in feudal japan are still being done today. All good systems of study in Modern Battlefield combatives do things like O Soto Gari, for example. It has not changed in...what like 1000 years. The Principles of Kusushi is still the same, irimi, ma ai..all the principles we study are the same for sure.

However, the problem is...that that immediately gets translated in "see I told you Aikido is effective!"

Well while the principles of arts like Aikido are relevant and apply to the modern battlefield, studying principles make you no better prepared to go to battle or fight than graduating with an undergraduate degree in business and expecting to go out in the world and be successful in business the very next day!

We don't expect that from college where we study theory and principle so why do we make this mistake when looking at martial arts training?

So, for me and my experiences, aikido certainly can make a good foundation to study principles and theory of martial movement, however, you must stop there and realize that that is all that is really going on there, and you really need a good teacher and a collection of students that can take it to the next level in order to understand modern combatives and the street.

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Old 11-11-2011, 03:26 AM   #1667
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
The aiki principles and the techniques used in Aikido date back to the times of Feudal Japan, times when those techniques were invented to be used in the battlefield as practical methods of survival among warriors.
Takenouchi Ryu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2QzjjTvqog Looks more like combat sports (pummeling and takedowns) than aikido.

European version of the same thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hlIUrd7d1Q
(pummeling and takedowns).
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Old 11-11-2011, 05:03 AM   #1668
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

These special forces guys seem to think aikido is useful in modern combat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAc6L5sfKXs&#t=32s

(But I'm glad we don't train that hard, I feel pity for that uke)

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 11-11-2011 at 05:11 AM.
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Old 11-11-2011, 05:28 AM   #1669
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I'd like to thank everybody who read my post and replied. My point is that there is no effectiveness of yesterday and effectiveness of today, the human body is the same, the ways to attack a person are the same(including every possible variation) therefore a good kote-gaeshi will land an attacker on his ass if performed correctly regardless of the kind of weapon he used. He could be using a katana, a spear or in modern application a folder knife but a wrist is still a wrist. If he cuts you you bleed the same regardless of the type of the blade and if you do a technique correctly he falls regardless of whether you are in feudal Japan or a New York street corner. Aikido is not a koryu as a system but a technique is a...technique. The whole matter of martial arts goes way deeper than just "winning or losing". A warrior is not an invincible person and the purpose of martial arts is not winning or gainning championships, that's why there is no comparison with the fighting sports. A warrior is not a sportsman...In any case i wanted to state that in my opinion and through my experience, believing that Aikido is ineffective, is dogmatic and nothing could be further from the truth even though fighting effectiveness it's not its only purpose but a main one...
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Old 11-11-2011, 05:37 AM   #1670
ryback
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
These special forces guys seem to think aikido is useful in modern combat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAc6L5sfKXs&#t=32s

(But I'm glad we don't train that hard, I feel pity for that uke)
Thank you very much for the link,very interesting. You see that's the way we train at our dojo in the advanced classes...It works.
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Old 11-11-2011, 06:01 AM   #1671
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Demetrio, good to see you posting!
Thanks, Kevin.

Quote:
I wouldn't go so far as to say that the things we learn in aikido do not make sense on the battlefield today. I think alot of what we do in aikido does make sense provided that we understand our environment and what it is that we need to do in it. I personally feel my training in aikido has provided some relevance.
Well, I was exaggerating a bit.

I agree with you regarding aikido has sound principles (like many other arts) useful and relevant but, this "samurai did this 300 years ago, therefore I'm validated/I can deliver" is totally nonsense because:

a) samurai did not practise aikido.
b) what some guy did in a feudal era battlefield to survive/get the job done has zero relevance to what one is able to do if shtf.
c) and the most important, imo: external validation means nothing because doesn't reflect who you are but how you are perceived.

@Dave

Very common techniques to many styles of wrestling and h2h combatives, performed on a non resisting opponent means nothing to me as "aikido is useful in modern combat". And if what you see in that clip is way harder than what you do and think uke is being somewhat "abused", I don't know what to say.

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Old 11-11-2011, 06:49 AM   #1672
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Thanks, Kevin.
@Dave

Very common techniques to many styles of wrestling and h2h combatives, performed on a non resisting opponent means nothing to me as "aikido is useful in modern combat". And if what you see in that clip is way harder than what you do and think uke is being somewhat "abused", I don't know what to say.
I don't think that what I can do would be very effective in modern combat. It just seems to me that some more informed practicioners have some confidence in the usefulness of these techniques in modern combat.

Yes, uke is not very resistive in this video. I can only guess what would have happened if he were more "resisitive". Would he have stopped the teacher or would he become more "abused"?
My guess is the latter.
Either way, the outcome in this particular case would only prove something for these two practicioners. Would it be possible to derive some general conclusion about the effectiveness of these techniques in general?

I'm not sure what you mean in the first part of yur response. You say that these techniques are common. Do you mean that this disqualifies them as aikido techniques?
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Old 11-11-2011, 07:13 AM   #1673
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
Yes, uke is not very resistive in this video. I can only guess what would have happened if he were more "resisitive". Would he have stopped the teacher or would he become more "abused"?
My guess is the latter.
Being "resistive" is not that productive either, what if the uke actually tried to down the other? Techniques in themselves are not that interesting, training methods and mindsets are.
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Old 11-11-2011, 07:46 AM   #1674
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Being "resistive" is not that productive either, what if the uke actually tried to down the other? Techniques in themselves are not that interesting, training methods and mindsets are.
I think you are right that the training method is very important factor when your aim is effectiveness in particular situations, but my recent posts were meant as a response to this statement about aikido techniques:

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Aikido techniques and tactics do not make sense in the battlefield.
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Old 11-11-2011, 08:11 AM   #1675
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
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Join Date: Feb 2005
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Takenouchi Ryu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2QzjjTvqog Looks more like combat sports (pummeling and takedowns) than aikido.

European version of the same thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hlIUrd7d1Q
(pummeling and takedowns).
Actually it looks just like Aikido; if you ever see an Aikidoka in a fight it looks just like that except with a bit more atemi perhaps.
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