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Old 11-09-2011, 01:37 AM   #51
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Matt Morris wrote: View Post
However it is human nature to develop and change something to our own way of liking. I would like to think that most wise old men would understand this. If O'Sensei couldn't, and demanded that things be done his way forever then he lacked understanding of this part of human nature.
Teachers would however like to see that the essence of their teachings is present after the students 'made it their own'...
Perhaps Ueshiba did not see that....

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
 
Old 11-09-2011, 12:09 PM   #52
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Matt Morris wrote: View Post
You clearly know more about O'Sensei than I. If what you say is accurate, and I don't doubt that it is, then O'Sensei was just expressing a normal instructors frustration at his students either not listening, or doing their own thing. I can fully understand this. I've done that enough over the years.

However it is human nature to develop and change something to our own way of liking. I would like to think that most wise old men would understand this. If O'Sensei couldn't, and demanded that things be done his way forever then he lacked understanding of this part of human nature.
I think the key to understanding Ueshiba's frustrations - and I am beginning to believe his "giving up" at trying change them- is not an issue of an old man not liking change, but rather one of him knowing that what they were training would never produce his aiki.
And he was right.

Marks points were completely accurate. And aikido-ka would do well to pay attention to what Ueshiba said about his supposed religious beliefs. As well as saying he wasn't a religious man, he also stated that his aiki would inform religions.
We have been dealing with co-opted Ueshiba-isms, in lue of understanding what he was actually doing and saying.
So, we disagree about it being about an old man letting his art evolve. You guys haven't come up with a single thing "better" than his aiki.

Chiba nailed it when he said "What I wouldn't give to sit at that old man's feet again."
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-09-2011 at 12:12 PM.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 12:21 PM   #53
kewms
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

As I see it, the whole discussion about translations, and personalities, and who said what when is a side issue.

The fundamental question is:
Can any of Ueshiba Sensei's students do what he could do? Can any of them teach what he was doing (or what they are doing) in a coherent, replicable way?

If not, then we modern aikidoka can either concede that a fundamental part of the art has been or soon will be lost forever, or go looking for those skills from whoever might be willing to teach us. Attacking the messenger(s) doesn't address the problem.

Katherine
 
Old 11-09-2011, 01:11 PM   #54
hughrbeyer
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think the key to understanding Ueshiba's frustrations - and I am beginning to believe his "giving up" at trying change them- is not an issue of an old man not liking change, but rather one of him knowing that what they were training would never produce his aiki.
And he was right.
This is the core puzzle for me. The man wasn't stupid. Why did he think that training people in a way he didn't train would teach them what he knew?

Did he think it was up to them to come looking for it? But he had lots of very sincere students. Why didn't they learn what he had? Or if they did, why couldn't they pass it on to their students?

We know he did solo exercises with his uchideshi. Why didn't they teach them to their students in turn? When they did introduce solo exercises (Tohei, Tomiki), why are they so devoid of internal power? Why did these shihan feel the need to invent new solo exercises, anyway?

When I read the currently active "grounding and centering" thread, all I could think of was to send the guy off to study Bagua because there's so little in mainstream Aikido to help him. Isn't that pathetic? ("Mainstream" meaning that if you go into a random Aikido dojo anywhere, you're likely to encounter it. Exceptional teachers and dojos do, of course, exist.)

Just askin'.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 02:38 PM   #55
kewms
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

One of the pitfalls of genius is expecting others to see things that are obvious to oneself. The best players don't always make the best coaches.

Perhaps it is too much to expect any single human to be both a martial genius and a pedagogical genius.

Remember, also, the enormous amount of social change in Japan in Ueshiba Sensei's lifetime. How difficult would it have been for any postwar aikidoka to train as he did?

Katherine
 
Old 11-10-2011, 04:54 AM   #56
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

@Katherine
This again seems to boil down to the question how good a teacher Ueshiba really was....

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
 
Old 11-10-2011, 08:15 AM   #57
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

By and large the uke/tori paradigm of training, at least as expressed in most aikido dojos, promotes stiff resistance or sloppy compliance. i have been hearing for 20 years that the waza are a vehicle for learning the "essence" of Aiki, and yet my experience of that within mainstream aikido has been minimal. However, in training with Akuzawa, and more recently with Dan, the experience was obvious. I am fortunate that my current Shihan was a direct student of Ueshiba, and does demonstrate his art with more than just mechanical competence but it is still very difficult to extract his internal methodology.
Why are so many people in aikido fearful of the idea that some people may be rediscovering what Aiki is, (bearing in mind the many Chinese arts that still practice and demonstrate internal power.
At least in free sparring in the form of pushing hands when there is no decision beforehand about who does what, it is very quickly revealed who has the mastery at that moment. Put your egos aside and get out and experience what is possible. Less time at the keyboard and more time on the mat!

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
 
Old 11-10-2011, 10:10 AM   #58
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
@Katherine
This again seems to boil down to the question how good a teacher Ueshiba really was....
Maybe. But my real point is that it doesn't take anything away from his accomplishments to concede that those of us who don't have the opportunity to learn from him directly might need to seek out a variety of different teachers. After all, he encouraged his own students to do that, too.

Katherine
 
Old 11-10-2011, 02:19 PM   #59
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Perhaps it is too much to expect any single human to be both a martial genius and a pedagogical genius.
Katherine
A martial genius identifies key restraints to action -- so as to break or neutralize their effect on his course of action; a pedagogical genius sets restraints -- just so the student CAN break them and NOT evade them.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 11-10-2011, 04:46 PM   #60
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Your response seems to reveal a great deal of insecurity hiding behind arrogance. Quite frankly I have no idea what it is you do. There are no videos available to see what you do, your writing and arguments are unclear, and your statements about Aikido and the practices of Aikido being clueless are outlandish forgiven the lack of anything tangible to back them up.

It is not aiki do. It is ai Ki do. This is not an opinion. This is what O'Sensei said. this is what my teachers say.

So once again you speak without detail and your supporters say to test your claims I have to go to your seminar. This is the genesis of my statement about money. I have been trying to give you and your followers a fair reading, but it is difficult to do when bad writing, unclear arguments, outlandishly insulting comments abou Aikido and Aikido practitioners, meet defensive responses like this one.

As I said in my post what you do (whatever "it" is) may be very good. It may even have aspects that are complimentary to Aikido. That does not make it Aikido. And it doesn't make Aikido The ineffective joke that you've claimed it is.

The thing is, I have eyes to read what O'Sensei wrote, what Saotome Sensei wrote, and watch videos of O'Sensei. I have ears to hear what my teachers tell me about O'Sensei. I see no support for the often repeated claims about everyone having missed the meaning of Aikido except yourself. I can see on the videos O'Sensei doing aikido, and students doing Aikido while he watched them, that contradicts what I take your claims to be (to the extent that I can read them). I see him doing the same Aikido that I see many schools practicing.

It would be more helpful if you would spell out in detail what I said about Aikido that is wrong in your view and what it is exactly that you are describing.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Mr. McGrew
You would do better to stick with questions. You clearly do not understand what I am talking about and teaching. At it's very foundation, all that I do is nonresistance.
As far as it being Aikido? Lets just say that men far more qualified than you consider it Aiki...do at it highest level. What aiki...do is supposed to be. I don't necessarily care to argue the point either way, but I will take the view of 14 shihans and dozens of 4th, 5th and 6thI dans...over yours.
And for the record, your comment that I say or think "Come pay me and I will show you true Aikido" is rude, dismissive and does a disservice; not only to yourself and your teacher-it speaks ill of the judgement of hundreds of teachers who find this work (which is very old, and well established training) valuable.
I assume you don't know, but your teacher has approved and spoken favorably of what this teaching has done with some of HIS highest ranked students.
I think you should do a little more research before embarrassing yourself further. This work is uniting different lines of the art, and making friends of different teachers who have never met. It is embarrassing to write or reveal some of the heartfelt letters I have received about what this work is doing for someof teachers Aikido. It's all good, and moving in a very positive direction.
Just say'n
Dan
 
Old 11-10-2011, 05:02 PM   #61
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

What we have here is a rather shallow attempt at diversion. Why not try to explain your alleged insights into Aikido instead of trying to draw me into a debate about unrelated historical issues? I could point to sources that contradict your claims and to video of O'Sensei teaching wider audiences, going on TV, Etc. but don't want to let you slip away from the unanswered questions. By the way, the disrespectful way that you and your comrades speak of Kisshomaru Sensei is simply not acceptable.

Why not simply answer the questions I posed and clarify what it is you think that HD has discovered that the rest of the Aikido world forgot.? It's just not evident in the posts. As I can't see HD doing whatever it is he's doing I can only read into the description of taking balance internally. As I mentioned, there is video of Terry Dobson doing what I assume are similar things way back when. It's not new.

Aikiweb has a very good search engine. So yes, Mark, I read all the relevant posts,that the search produced. I'm an academic. I know how to read. I know how to work through search engine results.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Mr. McGrew,

I have about 1700 posts. Dan has about 2500. Let's be conservative and say half of them are off topic. That leaves 800 and 1200 posts amid, oh, let's say 200 threads. That's just the two of us. There were a few more main participants (Rob John, Mike Sigman, etc) which could double the above count.

Are you saying that between the time I posted on Nov 6th and today, you have read all those threads and posts? Because, personally, from your recent post, it really doesn't seem like it.

Speaking of ... in your website on Aikido history, you have this:

According to Stan Pranin's extensive research, the above is really not true. Ueshiba did not train in many forms of martial arts. And those few he did study were short lived. His one, main art that he trained was Daito ryu.

Also, it was not out of that experience you describe which created Aikido and in fact, Ueshiba never named his art but just acknowledged his acceptance of the name.

Then, there's this section from your web site:

It was Kisshomaru Ueshiba who opened the practice of Aikido up to the general public, not Morihei. In fact, when Kisshomaru suggested a public demonstration, he feared his father would fly off in a rage at the notion. Instead, Morihei handed Tokyo hombu over to his son and Kisshomaru took things from there to a worldwide audience.

From there, it would be hard to have a conversation about aikido with someone who has ideas that are opposite historical facts. Stan Pranin has a subscription in which you can get a DVD with all the back issues of Aiki News/Aikido Journal. I would suggest starting there and reading through them.

If you don't wish to do that, then perhaps you should attend a seminar with Bill Gleason and have a long talk with him. Bill has the background, skills, and ability to help you understand aikido history, theory, spiritual ideology, and aiki.
 
Old 11-10-2011, 05:18 PM   #62
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

This post contains a number of testable claims.

You seem to be claiming that O'Sensei did not develop a new martial art but took it from Takeda. Also that modern Aikido isn't the Aikido that O'Sensei trained. Where is the evidence to support these claims? I'm not sure what your claim is exactly. But I can see video of O'Sensei and I can compare it to video of current Shihan's. When I do it looks like the same general approach. Same with his son and grandson.

Are you denying that O'Sensei was religious/spiritual? It looks like that is a claim you are making. If so, what exactly is your evidence? There is so much to refute that claim, if in fact you are making the claim you seem to be making.

You claim that the practice of grounding while being pushed cannot be found in modern Aikido. This is a strange claim to make. It is a regular part of training in most Ki Society schools and I have experienced this training in both ASU and USAF, and at seminars with instructors from other organizations. What exactly is your point anyway?

You seem to be claiming that O'Sensei did not develop Aikido after the war and that there is no difference between what hid did/said before and after the war. Is that your claim? If so, it's mistaken to the extreme.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
It is the nature of aiki to change for each individual. However, if you have aiki, you still have certain qualities to your art as can be seen in Ueshiba's peers: Horikawa and Sagawa. Each of them said that they learned from Takeda, went past Takeda in areas, and were still trying to understand aiki. This is *not* Kisshomaru's "aiki". This is the aiki from Takeda. Do not make the mistake of thinking that Ueshiba's aiki is the same as Modern Aikido's aiki.

There is very little in common with what Modern Aikido does today and what Morihei Ueshiba did. And yes, there is a right and wrong when it comes to Ueshiba's aiki. And no, I don't believe Ueshiba would agree with you. Why do you think he stormed into the dojo and yelled at everyone that they weren't doing his aikido? That he said he looked back and no one was following him? That Saito was learning Daito ryu jujutsu techniques in Iwama while Tokyo under Kisshomaru's direction was doing something entirely different? That Ueshiba got angry when people called him religious? That Ueshiba stated strongly that he was a man of budo? That it was extremely common for Ueshiba to have students push on him, yet we do not find this kind of training in Modern Aikido? That Ueshiba was just standing and talking to someone and told his son, look, I'm training even now -- where is that training in Modern Aikido? That no one looked like Ueshiba when they were all doing fune koge? That some post war students came back after the war, took a look at what was going on in Tokyo and left? And not because of the spiritual nature ... they'd heard it all before from Ueshiba himself before the war.
 
Old 11-10-2011, 05:25 PM   #63
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
This post contains a number of testable claims.

You seem to be claiming that O'Sensei did not develop a new martial art but took it from Takeda. Also that modern Aikido isn't the Aikido that O'Sensei trained. Where is the evidence to support these claims? I'm not sure what your claim is exactly. But I can see video of O'Sensei and I can compare it to video of current Shihan's. When I do it looks like the same general approach. Same with his son and grandson.
This should start you out: http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=34

It's a 15 year old argument, at a minimum. Not many people really contest the issue anymore.

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
You claim that the practice of grounding while being pushed cannot be found in modern Aikido. This is a strange claim to make. It is a regular part of training in most Ki Society schools and I have experienced this training in both ASU and USAF, and at seminars with instructors from other organizations. What exactly is your point anyway?
That kind of push test is nothing like what Dan is doing - or rather, it's just the very tip of the iceberg.

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
You seem to be claiming that O'Sensei did not develop Aikido after the war and that there is no difference between what hid did/said before and after the war. Is that your claim? If so, it's mistaken to the extreme.
Morihiro Saito didn't think so. He used to carry the 1938 edition of "Budo" around to prove it. In any case, after the war he was largely retired.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 11-10-2011, 05:30 PM   #64
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

What exactly are your claims here?

What did O'Sensei allegedly say about his religious beliefs that you are referring to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Sug...e_gdata_player

There an interview he did with his son I'll try to dig up later.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think the key to understanding Ueshiba's frustrations - and I am beginning to believe his "giving up" at trying change them- is not an issue of an old man not liking change, but rather one of him knowing that what they were training would never produce his aiki.
And he was right.

Marks points were completely accurate. And aikido-ka would do well to pay attention to what Ueshiba said about his supposed religious beliefs. As well as saying he wasn't a religious man, he also stated that his aiki would inform religions.
We have been dealing with co-opted Ueshiba-isms, in lue of understanding what he was actually doing and saying.
So, we disagree about it being about an old man letting his art evolve. You guys haven't come up with a single thing "better" than his aiki.

Chiba nailed it when he said "What I wouldn't give to sit at that old man's feet again."
Dan
 
Old 11-10-2011, 06:02 PM   #65
MM
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
What we have here is a rather shallow attempt at diversion. Why not try to explain your alleged insights into Aikido instead of trying to draw me into a debate about unrelated historical issues?

I could point to sources that contradict your claims and to video of O'Sensei teaching wider audiences, going on TV, Etc. but don't want to let you slip away from the unanswered questions. By the way, the disrespectful way that you and your comrades speak of Kisshomaru Sensei is simply not acceptable.

Why not simply answer the questions I posed and clarify what it is you think that HD has discovered that the rest of the Aikido world forgot.? It's just not evident in the posts. As I can't see HD doing whatever it is he's doing I can only read into the description of taking balance internally. As I mentioned, there is video of Terry Dobson doing what I assume are similar things way back when. It's not new.

Aikiweb has a very good search engine. So yes, Mark, I read all the relevant posts,that the search produced. I'm an academic. I know how to read. I know how to work through search engine results.
Not a diversion, Mr. McGrew. An attempt at pointing you in the direction for research. With all due respect, you have yet to show that you have a good grasp of Aikido History, Morihei Ueshiba's history, or my posting history.

Just as an example, I have multiple posts stating that I thought highly of what Kisshomaru accomplished. The answers to your entire post #62 can be found in my previous posts. So, obviously, you have not read all the relevant posts. Your view of aikido history is skewed, at best. We are trying, earnestly, to point you in the right direction. Whether you accept that is entirely up to you.

Mark
 
Old 11-10-2011, 06:09 PM   #66
graham christian
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
What exactly are your claims here?

What did O'Sensei allegedly say about his religious beliefs that you are referring to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Sug...e_gdata_player

There an interview he did with his son I'll try to dig up later.
Ken. It's very simple really. They are trying to prove that the internal stuff or aiki that Takeda had is the same that O'Sensei had and used as Aikido.

Completely false in my opinion, but they are trying to prove it. That's the nub of the matter as I see it.

Such bits of data as O'Sensei was largely retired after the war or even that in his later years didn't really have much to do with teaching Aikido to me are completely false.

It's best to let them get on with it for obviously it is their path.

Regards.G.
 
Old 11-10-2011, 06:21 PM   #67
MM
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ken. It's very simple really. They are trying to prove that the internal stuff or aiki that Takeda had is the same that O'Sensei had and used as Aikido.

Completely false in my opinion, but they are trying to prove it. That's the nub of the matter as I see it.

Such bits of data as O'Sensei was largely retired after the war or even that in his later years didn't really have much to do with teaching Aikido to me are completely false.

It's best to let them get on with it for obviously it is their path.

Regards.G.
Actually, it's all out there for people earnestly looking. From actual times that the training classes were held at Tokyo hombu, to who was there and when, to the places that Ueshiba travelled to teach, to when and how long he was in Iwama, to students talking about what Ueshiba did when he actually was on the mat, to ... well, pretty much everything contradicts your entire post.
 
Old 11-10-2011, 06:54 PM   #68
gregstec
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Your response seems to reveal a great deal of insecurity hiding behind arrogance. .
Ken, IMO, your responses seem to reveal a great deal of arrogance hiding behind ignorance. I do not intend to get into the detail of your arguments; I will leave that to those they are addressed to. However, I would like to just make an objective statement that the people you are apparently trying to engage in an intellectual fight all have well over 35 to 40 years of academic and hands-on experience in Aikido, Daito Ryu and other Japanese Budo - in addition, they also have intimate and personal access to others with even more experience and knowledge then them in the areas you have decided to challenge them on.

My recommendation to you, son (and I call you son not because of any physical age but more of a relative age to those you have engaged) is to do some more research in the areas of your arguments to find the corroboration of what is being stated here by those that have spent the time doing that. In other words, if you are truly the academic you say you are, stop being subjective and start being more objective - you really are bringing up arguments that have been presented and dispelled years ago by those that have been there, done that, etc.

Good luck in you journey

Greg

ps: it is DH and not HD....
 
Old 11-10-2011, 07:08 PM   #69
Gary David
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
You claim that the practice of grounding while being pushed cannot be found in modern Aikido. This is a strange claim to make. It is a regular part of training in most Ki Society schools and I have experienced this training in both ASU and USAF, and at seminars with instructors from other organizations. What exactly is your point anyway?
Ken
A number of ASU folks have had contact with Dan Harden and some have hosted him in their dojo. Why don't you just check with them to get your answers and to determine if he knows his stuff, as well as teach it. If you are not going to make the effort to check it out in person maybe the word of someone you have trained with and respect would either clear the air for you or give substance to your concerns.
Gary
 
Old 11-10-2011, 08:36 PM   #70
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Ken
A number of ASU folks have had contact with Dan Harden and some have hosted him in their dojo. Why don't you just check with them to get your answers and to determine if he knows his stuff, as well as teach it. If you are not going to make the effort to check it out in person maybe the word of someone you have trained with and respect would either clear the air for you or give substance to your concerns.
Gary
This. All the arguments about history and "disrespect" aren't really relevant to the question of whether the man is teaching something worthwhile.

Katherine
 
Old 11-10-2011, 10:17 PM   #71
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Not a diversion, Mr. McGrew. An attempt at pointing you in the direction for research. With all due respect, you have yet to show that you have a good grasp of Aikido History, Morihei Ueshiba's history, or my posting history.

Just as an example, I have multiple posts stating that I thought highly of what Kisshomaru accomplished. The answers to your entire post #62 can be found in my previous posts. So, obviously, you have not read all the relevant posts. Your view of aikido history is skewed, at best. We are trying, earnestly, to point you in the right direction. Whether you accept that is entirely up to you.

Mark
Your responses, Dan's, and Chris's are beginning to appear intentionally disingenuous. Also cowardly. When asked to qualify your positions or answer specific questions you say look at my earlier posts. Why are you on a discussion forum at all if you won't discuss? The three of you could just email each other. I've read the earlier posts, Mark, and you and your partners couldn't construct a readable paragraph much less a coherent argument to save your life. It's not my fault that I can't read your mind.
 
Old 11-10-2011, 10:19 PM   #72
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Ken
A number of ASU folks have had contact with Dan Harden and some have hosted him in their dojo. Why don't you just check with them to get your answers and to determine if he knows his stuff, as well as teach it. If you are not going to make the effort to check it out in person maybe the word of someone you have trained with and respect would either clear the air for you or give substance to your concerns.
Gary
ASU is a big organization. People in ASU have also cross trained in MMA. So what? My comments in this discussion were all drawn from Saotome Sensei's books. you should read them.
 
Old 11-10-2011, 10:27 PM   #73
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

The fact that you're older than me doesn't make you right. For the record I've been training in Aikido for over 20 years with direct access and close access to a number of very senior martial artists in Aikido, Karate, Katori, Judo, and other arts. There isn't anything I've posted here that I did not learn directly and personally from these instructors.

You say I'm bringing up arguments that have been dispelled? Which ones? That O'Sensei was religious? That he warped us to engage in cooperative training? Did you watch the interview footage I posted? It's impossible to respond to arguments that have simply never been made.

Good God, just say what you think and explain hey you think it. Or don't post on discussion forums and then take offense when people discuss.

On a side note, you are actually accusing me of lying about my academic training? You can buy my book on Amazon.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Ken, IMO, your responses seem to reveal a great deal of arrogance hiding behind ignorance. I do not intend to get into the detail of your arguments; I will leave that to those they are addressed to. However, I would like to just make an objective statement that the people you are apparently trying to engage in an intellectual fight all have well over 35 to 40 years of academic and hands-on experience in Aikido, Daito Ryu and other Japanese Budo - in addition, they also have intimate and personal access to others with even more experience and knowledge then them in the areas you have decided to challenge them on.

My recommendation to you, son (and I call you son not because of any physical age but more of a relative age to those you have engaged) is to do some more research in the areas of your arguments to find the corroboration of what is being stated here by those that have spent the time doing that. In other words, if you are truly the academic you say you are, stop being subjective and start being more objective - you really are bringing up arguments that have been presented and dispelled years ago by those that have been there, done that, etc.

Good luck in you journey

Greg

ps: it is DH and not HD....

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 11-10-2011 at 10:41 PM.
 
Old 11-10-2011, 10:39 PM   #74
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ken. It's very simple really. They are trying to prove that the internal stuff or aiki that Takeda had is the same that O'Sensei had and used as Aikido.

Completely false in my opinion, but they are trying to prove it. That's the nub of the matter as I see it.

Such bits of data as O'Sensei was largely retired after the war or even that in his later years didn't really have much to do with teaching Aikido to me are completely false.

It's best to let them get on with it for obviously it is their path.

Regards.G.
Thanks, Graham. I thought that's what they were saying.

They seem to also be saying that the cooperative training process in Aikido is a problem when it is the strength in Aikido and is exactly what O'Sensei wanted. I'm not opposed to people bringing in new influences to their Nage. I'm concerned about people undermining the training system that O'Sensei developed. What O'Sensei described as destroying Aikido principal, what he described as "a systaem, a training system, an education system. Aikido is process" (Saotome Sensei Aikido and the Harmony of Nature page 179).

Part of this results from the lack of an oral tradition. For example, aside from numerous other sources of evidence, I know that O'Sensei took purification baths every day because I'm part of the oral transmission of this knowledge from his original students down the line. He was very religious/spiritual. To argue otherwise is very ignorant and disrespectful. Why do these guys think there is a mirror on the shoman at the front of most dojos?
 
Old 11-10-2011, 10:42 PM   #75
Gary David
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
ASU is a big organization. People in ASU have also cross trained in MMA. So what? My comments in this discussion were all drawn from Saotome Sensei's books. you should read them.
Ken
I have Saotome Sensei's books, the version I have of "Aikido And the Harmony of Nature" I got back in the mid 80's. I trained with Saotome Sensei many times during the 80's when he came to California and we hosted him once at the old Orange County Aiki Kai dojo in Orange, CA. Of all the Aikido teachers I have had the opportunity grab grab onto over the years he is one that threw me without me understanding what was happening, movement without physical indicators, no tension in his arms or shoulders, without me feeling weight shift or exchange of momentum. This one time with Saotome Sensei at the OCAK dojo in 1983 is part of why I have looked for what was hidden. I can tell you that how what happened to me then by Saotome Sensei he was not teaching and I was around him every time he came to Southern California back then. It was something I had to seek on my own or get help from others looking for the same thing.

Dan Harden is for me one of several sources I utilize at the moment in a continuing journey.......maybe you should try him sometime.

Just go straight.....
Gary
 

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