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Old 11-08-2011, 05:59 PM   #51
graham christian
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Why? Why should the uke side be practicing something different from the nage side? Why would you spend half your mat time practicing something that isn't aikido?

Katherine
Precisely grasshopper. So are you saying trying to stab someone or chop off their head with a sword is Aikido?

Regards.G.
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Old 11-08-2011, 06:13 PM   #52
Janet Rosen
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Initiating and delivering with intent a proper attack is part of aikido. Yes, trying to cut somebodys head off may be the called - for attack.

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-08-2011, 06:26 PM   #53
kewms
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Precisely grasshopper. So are you saying trying to stab someone or chop off their head with a sword is Aikido?
To say that "trying to stab someone" is or is not aikido is not really relevant to dojo practice. In the dojo, someone is assigned the role of attacker and should fill that role with the same sort of connection, body movement, etc. that one uses when defending, ie according to aikido principles.

Outside the dojo, the correct question is not "is X aikido," but "is X morally correct?" Once you identify the morally correct action, then yes, absolutely, you should bring aikido (or whatever other skills you have) to bear in order to accomplish it.

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 11-08-2011 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 11-08-2011, 06:45 PM   #54
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Why? Why should the uke side be practicing something different from the nage side? Why would you spend half your mat time practicing something that isn't aikido?

Katherine
Hang on. Isn't that the point of uke? Shouldn't uke be playing the role of an attacker in order to allow nage to practice their technique in a simulated attack scenario? If uke was all about blending and being 'aiki' all the time, then how would nage be able to practice effectively?
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Old 11-08-2011, 07:28 PM   #55
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
Hang on. Isn't that the point of uke? Shouldn't uke be playing the role of an attacker in order to allow nage to practice their technique in a simulated attack scenario? If uke was all about blending and being 'aiki' all the time, then how would nage be able to practice effectively?
If uke is just a crash test dummy, and doesn't manifest the same aiki, etc., that nage does, how can uke ever counter nage (kaeshi waza)? If half the time you're training aiki and preserving your balance (nage), and half the time you're just performing some conventional move/attack and/or giving away your balance (uke), how can you progress? Perhaps we just understand aiki differently, but if I were to preserve the uke/nage training paradigm, I would have both uke and nage apply the same body/mind principles all the time so as to condition the body/mind more efficiently. IME you can still have a martial encounter within these parameters.
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Old 11-08-2011, 07:28 PM   #56
Janet Rosen
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
Hang on. Isn't that the point of uke? Shouldn't uke be playing the role of an attacker in order to allow nage to practice their technique in a simulated attack scenario? If uke was all about blending and being 'aiki' all the time, then how would nage be able to practice effectively?
I don't think of nage's job as being "blending".
I think of both nage and uke's roles as being to make an effective center to center connection:
uke in order to make an effective attack which means an attack on nage's structural integrity either via a grab, blow, strike, etc - nage in order to effect uke's structural integrity to effect a pin, roll, fall, etc.

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-08-2011, 07:47 PM   #57
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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If uke is just a crash test dummy, and doesn't manifest the same aiki, etc., that nage does, how can uke ever counter nage (kaeshi waza)? If half the time you're training aiki and preserving your balance (nage), and half the time you're just performing some conventional move/attack and/or giving away your balance (uke), how can you progress? Perhaps we just understand aiki differently, but if I were to preserve the uke/nage training paradigm, I would have both uke and nage apply the same body/mind principles all the time so as to condition the body/mind more efficiently. IME you can still have a martial encounter within these parameters.
I'm certainly not saying that uke should be going through the motions or giving away their balance. That's not what I mean at all. What I am saying is that if nage is practicing shomen-uchi ikkyo, then uke should be trying to hit nage in the head. IMHO this is not particularly 'aiki'.
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Old 11-08-2011, 08:04 PM   #58
kewms
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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What I am saying is that if nage is practicing shomen-uchi ikkyo, then uke should be trying to hit nage in the head. IMHO this is not particularly 'aiki'.
Why not? What do you understand "aiki" to mean? Why can't one manifest it while attacking?

Katherine
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Old 11-08-2011, 08:14 PM   #59
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Why not? What do you understand "aiki" to mean? Why can't one manifest it while attacking?

Katherine
Well, I'm not saying that uke can't exhibit elements of 'aiki'. In fact they should. Uke should maintain balance, and blend with the technique once it has begun, which can lead to kaeshi-waza etc etc etc. However, when it comes down to it, they are still trying to hit nage in the head.

As for what I understand aiki to mean, I suppose a large part of it is harmonising forces. Whether those forces are within, or come from an attacker or are metaphorical or whatever is up to the interpreter. In any case, I am yet to be convinced that hitting someone in the head is particularly aiki. I am, however, willing to be convinced. Could you explain how you see it?
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Old 11-08-2011, 08:28 PM   #60
kewms
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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As for what I understand aiki to mean, I suppose a large part of it is harmonising forces. Whether those forces are within, or come from an attacker or are metaphorical or whatever is up to the interpreter. In any case, I am yet to be convinced that hitting someone in the head is particularly aiki. I am, however, willing to be convinced. Could you explain how you see it?
Instead of a strike, consider a wrist grab. Consider using the contact point at the wrist to connect to nage's spine through his arm, and using that connection to take him down, or to immobilize him for a strike. Is that a manifestation of "harmonizing forces?" As I see it, yes, absolutely.

A strike is simply a more explosive version of the same idea.

Katherine
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Old 11-08-2011, 08:58 PM   #61
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Instead of a strike, consider a wrist grab. Consider using the contact point at the wrist to connect to nage's spine through his arm, and using that connection to take him down, or to immobilize him for a strike. Is that a manifestation of "harmonizing forces?" As I see it, yes, absolutely.

A strike is simply a more explosive version of the same idea.

Katherine
I vaguely see where you are coming from, but if striking someone is just a more explosive version of harmonising forces, doesn't pretty much everything that is effective fall under that category? What about shooting someone, or firing a missile? I'm still struggling to see where you draw the line.
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Old 11-08-2011, 09:29 PM   #62
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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I vaguely see where you are coming from, but if striking someone is just a more explosive version of harmonising forces, doesn't pretty much everything that is effective fall under that category? What about shooting someone, or firing a missile? I'm still struggling to see where you draw the line.
The kyudo folks would probably say that they strive to make the same connection. I don't study kyudo, so I'm not going to comment. The same idea is definitely present in sword and jo work, though.

I didn't say that *all* strikes manifest aiki, just that it is *possible* to use aiki principles in strikes. And that the attacker in an aikido interaction should be practicing aiki principles.

Why does there need to be a line? Ueshiba Sensei did not invent aiki, so why can't it appear in places other than the nage side of aikido waza?

Katherine
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Old 11-08-2011, 09:40 PM   #63
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
The kyudo folks would probably say that they strive to make the same connection. I don't study kyudo, so I'm not going to comment. The same idea is definitely present in sword and jo work, though.

I didn't say that *all* strikes manifest aiki, just that it is *possible* to use aiki principles in strikes. And that the attacker in an aikido interaction should be practicing aiki principles.

Why does there need to be a line? Ueshiba Sensei did not invent aiki, so why can't it appear in places other than the nage side of aikido waza?

Katherine
I think I see what you mean now. Uke should definitely use aiki principles, and no, I don't think there should be anything that should be excluded from having aiki as an element of it. In that sense I absolutely agree with you. It can definitely appear in places other than aikido waza.

My bone of contention is that a large part of uke's role should be to simulate an attack. That is a situation of disharmony. Whether they are using internal aiki principles or not, in order to allow nage to train effectively, there needs to be some disharmony created. That's all I mean.
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Old 11-08-2011, 09:55 PM   #64
kewms
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
My bone of contention is that a large part of uke's role should be to simulate an attack. That is a situation of disharmony. Whether they are using internal aiki principles or not, in order to allow nage to train effectively, there needs to be some disharmony created. That's all I mean.
*shrug* If there were no disharmony in the world, then martial arts would be unnecessary.

As I pointed out upthread, it's entirely possible for the nominal "nage" to be the initial source of disharmony, and that uke's "attack" is actually his attempt to defend himself and restore the balance.

I just haven't found the attitude that "uke is being un-aiki" to be conducive to good ukemi, OR to good training for nage.

Katherine
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Old 11-08-2011, 10:57 PM   #65
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Re: the discussion on whether attacking is not a part of aikido. I have heard a number of references that actually indicate that, at a higher levels, it is Nage who attacks first in order to draw uke to retaliate in a way which sets him up for a technique....looking at old videos of Ueshiba I noticed that in a large number of instances he is not waiting for his uke to perform some sort of attack but is actually going after them first. Uke has not decided anything. Nage is, or should be, in full control from the first moment of interaction. Therefore attacking is a part of aikido, as far as I currently understand. The attacks just have a different goal than to destroy the opponent.

Last edited by Shadowfax : 11-08-2011 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 11-08-2011, 11:08 PM   #66
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
My bone of contention is that a large part of uke's role should be to simulate an attack. That is a situation of disharmony. Whether they are using internal aiki principles or not, in order to allow nage to train effectively, there needs to be some disharmony created. That's all I mean.
Or they are creating the opportunity for someone to learn something by simulating an attack. Assuming the other party wants to learn something, then I fail to see the disharmony... i.e. there isn't a victim here.
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Old 11-08-2011, 11:12 PM   #67
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
Or they are creating the opportunity for someone to learn something by simulating an attack. Assuming the other party wants to learn something, then I fail to see the disharmony... i.e. there isn't a victim here.
Well, I can't disagree with that. I think I'm going to have to re-read this thread. I have forgotten where this all started
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Old 11-08-2011, 11:17 PM   #68
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
I have forgotten where this all started
me tooism!

Last edited by Anthony Loeppert : 11-08-2011 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:30 AM   #69
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Lynn, I think you also need to determine whether or not the content of the training is such that it gives you the tools you need.
Total agreement.

The right tool for the right task.

The right training for the right tool.

The right determination to train in the right tool for the right task at the right time from the right person.

Thoughts?

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:42 AM   #70
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I would say the outcome is purely to do with the level of skill, ability. But we digress no?
IMHO, the level of skill determines the level of determinism.

To "override" (enter, blend, and redirect) our own past programed determinism or the current situational determinism presented by the uke/attacker is a direct function of our level of skill (mindfulness and physical).

No digression. Only practical application.

Thoughts?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-09-2011, 09:05 AM   #71
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Here are a couple of things from my perspective:
1. Aiki is not morality. I think equating aiki with a [good] morality leads us to make erroneous judgements about what is and is not aikido. Saying something like "uke is not doing aikido because he was to cut off nage's head" presumes that the person cutting is bad. This presumption may be wrong.
2. Harmony is subjective. We use word like harmony in aikido with the presumption that harmony as we view it is the absolute harmony. This presumption may be wrong.

Uke and nage are transitive roles within an confrontation. The assignment of morality, harmony, justice, etc. to one role over the other will break down as soon as uke becomes nage, and nage becomes uke. In henka waza the roles of uke and nage may transition a number of times. Uke and nage both should be practicing aiki; either uke is better than nage or nage is better than uke.
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Old 11-09-2011, 10:42 AM   #72
kewms
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Here are a couple of things from my perspective:
1. Aiki is not morality. I think equating aiki with a [good] morality leads us to make erroneous judgements about what is and is not aikido. Saying something like "uke is not doing aikido because he was to cut off nage's head" presumes that the person cutting is bad. This presumption may be wrong.
2. Harmony is subjective. We use word like harmony in aikido with the presumption that harmony as we view it is the absolute harmony. This presumption may be wrong.
Both excellent points.

There's an old saying: you can safely conclude that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. If you think all of your actions are necessarily "good" because you are using aiki, you probably don't understand aiki very well.

(A point that becomes obvious when applied to other people...)

Morality is morality. Aikido is aikido.

Katherine
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Old 11-09-2011, 11:17 AM   #73
Basia Halliop
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

"There's an old saying: you can safely conclude that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."

I love that - thanks!
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Old 11-09-2011, 11:58 AM   #74
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Uke and nage are transitive roles within an confrontation. The assignment of morality, harmony, justice, etc. to one role over the other will break down as soon as uke becomes nage, and nage becomes uke. In henka waza the roles of uke and nage may transition a number of times. Uke and nage both should be practicing aiki; either uke is better than nage or nage is better than uke.
Very well put.

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-09-2011, 12:06 PM   #75
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
I'm certainly not saying that uke should be going through the motions or giving away their balance. That's not what I mean at all. What I am saying is that if nage is practicing shomen-uchi ikkyo, then uke should be trying to hit nage in the head. IMHO this is not particularly 'aiki'.
Sorry if I misunderstood you. I agree with you, uke should provide an “attack” that is on target and realistic enough to provide a challenge. My point was that the same mind/body principles apply whether you’re defending or attacking. Uke should move from the center, in a connected way, and applying aiki principles. And if uke is the senior (aikido has this backwards imho), s/he would feel whether the nage is doing it right or not and can offer feedback.
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