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Old 11-08-2011, 03:45 AM   #26
sorokod
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Do you consider uke as a wave or as a particle?
probably both, so that the fall of the uke corresponds to the wave function collapse.

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Old 11-08-2011, 04:04 AM   #27
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Heisenberg anyone?
when you know where aite is, you do not know how fast he is going
when you know how fast he is going, you do not know where he is

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 11-08-2011, 06:05 AM   #28
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

But the uke in the box is dead, alive or both?

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Old 11-08-2011, 06:19 AM   #29
Marc Abrams
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
FWIW...

Or to use Webster's

Definition 2 pretty much encapsulates the notions of definition 1 including the predestination aspect.

I see what you're saying now, but again I think you're making up meanings as you go. That's not exactly conducive to communication...
Keith:

Some people just like to hear themselves talk, see their own posts..... regardless of how inane their thoughts and actions might be. Perhaps the funniest aspect of it all is the over-riding insistence of always being right. I think it falls under "I Think, therefore I am right, therefore I am god-like ."

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 11-08-2011, 06:27 AM   #30
gates
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
But the uke in the box is dead, alive or both?
Is being neither alive nor dead the same as being both?

Enjoy the journey
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Old 11-08-2011, 06:39 AM   #31
Walter Martindale
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

I think I think, therefore I think I am...
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Old 11-08-2011, 07:56 AM   #32
jonreading
 
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Raul and Keith. This seems like a good starting point, clarifying the meaning of the word.

Raul your definition of general philosophical thesis, wow, I don't know that one. Keith yours again of some unchangeable chain of events, wow, I don't know that one either. So before anyone says I'm using an unknown definition, a graham definition, I assure you I am using pure, clear, standard as per dictionary definition. So any misunderstanding isn't from me.

Determine......root meaning (detrminare- latin-to set limits to)

Definition.....a)to make up ones mind very firmly b)to fix or settle beforehand, decide. c) to be the deciding fact in reaching (a certain result)

So it's to do with the above. now add self as in self determined.

So the meaning I am using here is action caused and done by self will. In other words not caused by exterior forces. So a bang making you jump is an other determined action (caused by something else)
Jumping because you want to is a self determined action.

So that clears what I mean by sef determinism I hope.

So my original statement above says to override what uke wants, demands, is doing.

Regards.G.
1. Let's get past this definition thing. Determinism is not the correct word for what is being discussed. An ism is a noun-forming suffix root used to change the meaning of a noun from a specific noun to general doctrine or system. Let's accept that was the wrong word and go on.
2. I believe you mean to use either "determined" or "determinedly" as an adverb to describe the manner in which uke attacks.

Uke absolutely needs to develop the ability to attack nage with the expectation that if nage does not properly execute waza, uke will prevail and the attack will succeed. Nage absolutely needs to develop the ability to properly execute waza. The aikido confrontation is about control: physical control, mental control and spiritual control. I am imposing myself upon my partner on one or more levels for the purpose of establishing control of my partner. While not necessarily a bad word, I am not so much "overriding" my partner's will to affect me ("overriding" has an implication of domination or force) as I am creating a scenario in which aite realizes his efforts will not prevail. In this sense my partner is changing his intention from offense to defense. This also puts him in the position to receive my offensive as I transition from getting to giving.

This is (I think) where we break down as "uke". We attack like morons and our bodies are never positioned to defend if nage ever did want to transition into an attacking role... So rather than making our uke better learn how to transition from offense to defense we threw out the offensive role for nage... Again, I don't like "overriding" here because that implies that uke is not altering his position to respond to nage. And we are back to this concept that nage must be responsive to uke but uke does not have to be responsive to nage. I think good aikido is about the communication between uke and nage that creates a dialog - "Don't go there, that won't work. Oh, shoot, well I better move here then. Thanks."
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Old 11-08-2011, 08:09 AM   #33
Gorgeous George
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Do you consider uke as a wave or as a particle?
HAHAHA!

It's discussions like this that I can see really helping to better my aikido practice.

...if I didn't just scroll past all the verbal masturbation, that is.
What is uke?
What is determinism?
...what is a word...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq65h...e_gdata_player
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Old 11-08-2011, 08:10 AM   #34
Keith Larman
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Keith:

Some people just like to hear themselves talk, see their own posts..... regardless of how inane their thoughts and actions might be. Perhaps the funniest aspect of it all is the over-riding insistence of always being right. I think it falls under "I Think, therefore I am right, therefore I am god-like ."

Regards,

Marc Abrams
Well, I don't know his intent but I was just trying to unwind a bit what he was saying. From my understanding of English and philosophy for that matter it made no sense and I was curious how one could work determinism in to this stuff we do. On the other hand, if we temporarily redefine the meaning to encapsulate what he seems to intend, well, then it becomes (as Katherine mentioned and I mentioned before) rather self-evident. So I don't see the point. I see it as either silly or self-evident and trivial. I was wondering if I missed something deeper (wouldn't be the first time).

I do find it interesting in that it seems the subtle (and often not-so-subtle) misuse of words to create a confused, shifting meaning to be a common thread here. So many are willing to wax on poetically. And while I find no problem with that, it does tend to require a solid base if you're going to claim some sort of objective reality and substance for that object of that prose. If is a form of fallacy in argument when one starts to shift meanings around. Shifting grounds kind of problem. It just seems so much more prevalent in Aikido discussions for some reason. Or maybe it's just a few peoples' way of communicating that causes cognitive dissonance in me.

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Old 11-08-2011, 08:11 AM   #35
Basia Halliop
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

I kind of got the impression he meant something like 'keeping uke from doing what uke is trying to do, and getting uke to do something else instead'.

And (here I'm guessing slightly more) 'in the dojo, we should try to trust each other and assume that others will trust us' and 'if you can get uke to do what you want he or she will trust you because they can see that you know what you're doing'. Or something like that?

A word of advice from George Orwell himself (author of 1984 and Animal Farm if that jogs your memory): "never use a long word where a short one will do". Even if you use a word which is also accurate (which you didn't), more often than not it communicates your idea far less clearly; in fact, sometimes it hides your meaning rather than revealing it. Save the big words for when there honestly isn't any other word that captures your thought, and then be sure you're using the word accurately.

Sometimes people use more complex or unclear language intentionally because they believe it makes them look more intelligent, other times it's just a habit. Either way, it's more likely to make you sound confused than intelligent. Intelligent IDEAS make you sound intelligent. (No idea if this is why Graham is using his kind of language or not - as often as not it's just a habit people get into).

Orwell's essay 'politics and the english language, which he wrote in 1946' is worth reading for anyone.
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

At the end he summarizes some writing tips.

"But one can often be in doubt about the effect of a word or a phrase, and one needs rules that one can rely on when instinct fails. I think the following rules will cover most cases:

(i) Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.
(ii) Never us a long word where a short one will do.
(iii) If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.
(iv) Never use the passive where you can use the active.
(v) Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.
(vi) Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.

These rules sound elementary, and so they are, but they demand a deep change of attitude in anyone who has grown used to writing in the style now fashionable. One could keep all of them and still write bad English, but one could not write the kind of stuff that I quoted in those five specimens at the beginning of this article. "

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 11-08-2011 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 11-08-2011, 09:20 AM   #36
Graham Farquhar
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
You still miss the point that determine or its past tense, determined, isn't the same thing as adding ism at the end which totally changes the meaning. The word you are for some reason avoiding is determination.
Agreed! That was my initial thoughts!
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Old 11-08-2011, 09:39 AM   #37
raul rodrigo
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Why not use the phrase "uke's intention" instead of "determinism" and be done with it? Determinism has a given meaning already.
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Old 11-08-2011, 10:21 AM   #38
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Do you consider uke as a wave or as a particle?
Both! No, wait, uke's a string! It's all good.
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Old 11-08-2011, 12:07 PM   #39
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
Both! No, wait, uke's a string!
Then he/she/it has "flavor"..... om nom nom

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Old 11-08-2011, 12:21 PM   #40
SeiserL
 
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Perhaps I am more determined they will go where I want to put them as opposed to me going where they are determined to put me?

Perhaps the outcome is determined by the intent and intensity of training?

Thoughts?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-08-2011, 01:06 PM   #41
Basia Halliop
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Lynn, I think you also need to determine whether or not the content of the training is such that it gives you the tools you need.
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Old 11-08-2011, 02:59 PM   #42
graham christian
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
FWIW...

Or to use Webster's

Definition 2 pretty much encapsulates the notions of definition 1 including the predestination aspect.

I see what you're saying now, but again I think you're making up meanings as you go. That's not exactly conducive to communication...
Think what you want but admit when you're wrong and casting false aspersions. Those definitions given are from a dictionary so I'm not making anything up thank you very much.

Some people ie: Lynn, were obviously used to that definition being used so just because you were not means just that, you were not. (along with some others) So it has now been clarified.

Ref. for those who feel pedantic. World book dictionary, thorndike and barnhart, determine definitions 1,2, and 3. vt.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-08-2011, 03:10 PM   #43
graham christian
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
You still miss the point that determine or its past tense, determined, isn't the same thing as adding ism at the end which totally changes the meaning. The word you are for some reason avoiding is determination.
O.K. Anthony. Self determination. Thank you. You still have to look at the word from a verb point of view though to see the concept. He is trying to determine what happens.

If someone told me someone has great determination (noun) I would see he decides for himself, he determines what happens uninfluenced, focussed.

So I will use your more grammatically correct definition.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-08-2011, 03:18 PM   #44
graham christian
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Maybe. Or maybe nage is the bad guy, and I'm grabbing his wrist because he was about to draw his sword on me. Or hit me. Sometimes good guys need to attack, too.

Katherine
O.K. Agreed it seems like a banal statement, but on further inspection it brings questions.

As you say above that could also be a scenario. Have you trained like this? Have you ever had nage holding something, willing to use it, so that grabbing the wrist has more reality to it?

Thus yours is a good observation no?

Regards.G.
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Old 11-08-2011, 03:21 PM   #45
graham christian
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Do you consider uke as a wave or as a particle?
Ha, ha. Do I consider you as background noise or a heavenly song?
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Old 11-08-2011, 03:24 PM   #46
kewms
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
As you say above that could also be a scenario. Have you trained like this? Have you ever had nage holding something, willing to use it, so that grabbing the wrist has more reality to it?
Quite often. Though nage isn't always holding a weapon, we teach people -- from day one -- that uke is grabbing for a reason, not just to hold nage's wrist.

The distinction between uke and nage is entirely artificial. It's useful for training purposes, but the assigned role shouldn't make much difference in a person's attitude

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 11-08-2011 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 11-08-2011, 03:56 PM   #47
graham christian
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Perhaps I am more determined they will go where I want to put them as opposed to me going where they are determined to put me?

Perhaps the outcome is determined by the intent and intensity of training?

Thoughts?
Hi Lynn.
I would say the outcome is purely to do with the level of skill, ability. But we digress no?

The whole concept of Aikido is about overriding ukes determination. That's the point I need to clarify. That's the bold statement I make.

Uke: I am saying uke represents a determined aggressor, that's his job.

Nage therefore represents Aikido.

When we read statements by O'Sensei such as 'there are no enemies or opponents in Aikido, or there is no attacking in Aikido or there is no pushing against or pulling in Aikido and such things then it appears to me that the attacker is representing something outside of
Aikido and therefore the nage is representing Aikido.

Thus I believe that I am presenting an interesting view that has more truth to it than first glance.

So I am saying uke represents rules which may be outside of the principles of Aikido yet Aikido is to handle such without going into those same rules ie: without fighting etc.

So in effect overriding or changing the attackers determinism.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-08-2011, 03:59 PM   #48
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ha, ha. Do I consider you as background noise or a heavenly song?
Is there any difference?

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Old 11-08-2011, 04:08 PM   #49
graham christian
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Quite often. Though nage isn't always holding a weapon, we teach people -- from day one -- that uke is grabbing for a reason, not just to hold nage's wrist.

The distinction between uke and nage is entirely artificial. It's useful for training purposes, but the assigned role shouldn't make much difference in a person's attitude

Katherine
O.K. Fine by me. I shall now refer you to the following: To give distinction between uke and nage.

Have uke representing something that's not Aikido. (principle wise) Then see from that view a massive distinction.

For example, trying to stab someone is hardly in accordance with the philosophy of Aikido. However Aikido philosophy states it can handle such with harmonious motion etc.

Therefore it's good to look at it this way I say from the view of nage representing Aikido while uke is representing a determined yet non-harmonious other.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-08-2011, 04:49 PM   #50
kewms
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Re: Overriding uke's determinism

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Have uke representing something that's not Aikido.
Why? Why should the uke side be practicing something different from the nage side? Why would you spend half your mat time practicing something that isn't aikido?

Katherine
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