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Old 10-25-2011, 07:51 AM   #101
genin
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Chris Evans wrote: View Post
When "push comes to shove" I have a haunch that strong aikido and a 45ACP pistol may be all that is really needed in close quarters, in a street, home, or in an airplane to resist "evil."
A gun will get you in trouble in your home, on an airplane, and especially in the street. If you don't get shot yourself, just add an extra 25 years to your sentence for using a firearm in commission of whatever felony the end up getting you on. While you wouldn't want to bring a knife to a gun fight, a knife may be a better choice for personal protection. Because at least you don't have to worry about incurring firearms violations, yet it can be just as deadly.
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Old 10-25-2011, 08:20 AM   #102
Chris Evans
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Smile Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
A gun will get you in trouble in your home, on an airplane, and especially in the street. If you don't get shot yourself, just add an extra 25 years to your sentence for using a firearm in commission of whatever felony the end up getting you on. While you wouldn't want to bring a knife to a gun fight, a knife may be a better choice for personal protection. Because at least you don't have to worry about incurring firearms violations, yet it can be just as deadly.
RE: "A [pistol] will get you in trouble in [edited] an airplane, and especially in the street"
True on airplane, legally. On streets, well, depends on training and having a CCW Permit (in the USA). At home, assuming stored hidden and locked, a 45ACP pistol on trained hands can save lives, as verbally recommended by couple of Berkeley PD officers.

RE: knife
Well agreed.

in gassho.

Last edited by Chris Evans : 10-25-2011 at 08:23 AM.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 10-25-2011, 08:30 PM   #103
Michael Hackett
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

When it comes to using weapons for self defense, there are any number of intangible concerns. Using a knife will have political implications with the police, the prosecution and a jury. Whether true or not, there is a view that a knife is the weapon of choice for thugs and street creeps and one using a knife will quite likely be viewed in that light. A knife is a very personal weapon and to actually incapitate or kill an attacker with a knife is almost an intimate action. How many folks actually have the ability to look their attacker in the eyes as the life drains from them? A firearm is an excellent self defense tool, but requires one to always be armed and in practice to be effective. Always being armed is a pain at best - ask your Berkeley cops about that. And by practice, just going to the range every few months and shooting a few rounds will not make an individual competent. That requires constant work and thousands of rounds fired.

From a more practical standpoint, it would be very wise to research the laws of your jurisdiction to determine the rules and limits to self defense. Generally you must be in imminent fear of death or great bodily injury before you may use deadly force. Your description of your imminent fear will be judged by a reasonable person standard and you could find yourself in deep legal trouble. And yes, I've heard the old saw about it being better to be tried by six than carried by twelve. That has a grain of truth to it - but you must be absolutely sure that you are in danger of being carried by twelve.

I am not adverse to being armed at all. I'm just suggesting that a person must be willing to put in the work and clearly understands the ramifications and consequences that are attached. Just be aware that the decision to use a weapon will forever alter your life and the lives of many, many others. For most people, a canister of pepper spray may be a much better choice. That doesn't always work, but then again, nothing does.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 10-26-2011, 08:59 AM   #104
lbb
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
The more things stay the same, the more they change, but how does that make this irrelevant? "How long is a string?" isn't necessarily irrelevant; it's just nebulous. This might just be another example of The Thread Which Must Not Be Named, but the relevancy seems to depend on individual interests. In other words, it might not be relevant to you, but can still be perfectly relevant to others...can't it?
No, it really can't. To be relevant, by definition, it must relate to something, and the "something" hasn't been defined. That's what's wrong with this whole nonsense thread. If you fail to define your terms, it isn't a conversation, it's the Tower of Babel.
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Old 10-26-2011, 09:47 AM   #105
Demetrio Cereijo
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Talking Re: Aikido in a street situation

As a starter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqTY9gS-pkw

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Old 10-26-2011, 01:22 PM   #106
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
No, it really can't. To be relevant, by definition, it must relate to something, and the "something" hasn't been defined. That's what's wrong with this whole nonsense thread. If you fail to define your terms, it isn't a conversation, it's the Tower of Babel.
But doesn't that exist in most conversations to some degree? Most people don't set about a conversation with thoroughy defined terms. In particular, aren't all hypothetical topics like this? This doesn't mean the conversation is irrelevant, or that people can't still have commonality to their definitions. People make statements and other people ask questions to arrive at some relative degree of common definition.
When people talk about the street in the context of martial arts, some degee of definition is easy to arrive at. They're talking about effectiveness with attacks someone is likely to encounter when attacked. The problem comes when people don't ask questions to learn what definitions people have established in their minds...among other, more personality-based issues.
As far as I can tell, at any rate. Just because something isn't well-defined, doesn't make it necessarily useless, in my opinion.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-28-2011, 11:42 AM   #107
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
A gun will get you in trouble in your home, on an airplane, and especially in the street. If you don't get shot yourself, just add an extra 25 years to your sentence for using a firearm in commission of whatever felony the end up getting you on. While you wouldn't want to bring a knife to a gun fight, a knife may be a better choice for personal protection. Because at least you don't have to worry about incurring firearms violations, yet it can be just as deadly.
That's why I love the state of Indiana. I carry a pistol with me daily. If I'm ever forced to use it the law is on my side.

In terms of fights going to the ground. I have a feeling that the popularity of MMA is going to cause most 'thugs' to start to adapt mock styles of MMA fighting. They see it as cool and powerful and will emulate it. I've seen this happen in my real life. I ran a small mma club at a college and we would get all kinds of 'street fighters' who wanted to train. They had watched TUF and emulated the lingo and style of what was seen there. While some were tough, all did not have real training, but none the less they still attempted double legs, chokes and armbars. Also, in this area wrestling is very popular. So many of this new breed of kid is all about using wrestling to sit on your chest and pound your face in.

The truth though is that I'm in my 30's now. They only fist fight I'm going to get into is on the mat. In 'real life' if it reaches that point I'm in fear for my life and several things have gone really wrong. And that is why I carry a firearm.

Last edited by DonMagee : 10-28-2011 at 11:46 AM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:03 PM   #108
genin
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
That's why I love the state of Indiana. I carry a pistol with me daily. If I'm ever forced to use it the law is on my side.

In terms of fights going to the ground. I have a feeling that the popularity of MMA is going to cause most 'thugs' to start to adapt mock styles of MMA fighting. They see it as cool and powerful and will emulate it. I've seen this happen in my real life. I ran a small mma club at a college and we would get all kinds of 'street fighters' who wanted to train. They had watched TUF and emulated the lingo and style of what was seen there. While some were tough, all did not have real training, but none the less they still attempted double legs, chokes and armbars. Also, in this area wrestling is very popular. So many of this new breed of kid is all about using wrestling to sit on your chest and pound your face in.

The truth though is that I'm in my 30's now. They only fist fight I'm going to get into is on the mat. In 'real life' if it reaches that point I'm in fear for my life and several things have gone really wrong. And that is why I carry a firearm.
I suppose if you carry a gun you would likely never have to fight. You'd always be able to deter your opponent, or if that fails, shoot him dead. But say it's a drunk fan at a ballgame accosting you, and you either don't have your gun on you, or you don't want to risk accidentally hitting other fans with gunfire. Situations like that may require you to fight someone without a weapon of any sort. It's all hypothetical, but certainly possible.
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:26 PM   #109
grondahl
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
That's why I love the state of Indiana. I carry a pistol with me daily. If I'm ever forced to use it the law is on my side.
That´s why I love being scandinavian. Nobody carries a gun*.

*Organised crime exists of course, but they use their weapons on other gangs..


On a more serious side. Do you train to be able to use it during stress, practice shooting on moving targets, consider the 21 foot-rule etc?

Last edited by grondahl : 10-28-2011 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 10-28-2011, 04:20 PM   #110
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
That´s why I love being scandinavian. Nobody carries a gun*.

*Organised crime exists of course, but they use their weapons on other gangs...
+1
In my opnion, when you allow people to arm themselves, you effectively start an arms race within your society. Criminals need to arm themselves more to overcome armed citizens, police needs to arm themselves even more to overcome the more heavily armed criminals, etc, etc: an arms race.

When a policeman shoots in the Netherlands, it is news.
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Old 10-28-2011, 04:42 PM   #111
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Hi folks,

Just wanted to step in here and request that the discussion in this thread to explicitly include the topic of aikido.

If you'd like to discuss issues regarding guns in a context outside of aikido, please do so in the Open Discussions forum.

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 10-30-2011, 02:49 PM   #112
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
I suppose if you carry a gun you would likely never have to fight. You'd always be able to deter your opponent, or if that fails, shoot him dead. But say it's a drunk fan at a ballgame accosting you, and you either don't have your gun on you, or you don't want to risk accidentally hitting other fans with gunfire. Situations like that may require you to fight someone without a weapon of any sort. It's all hypothetical, but certainly possible.
That's why I have trained in the wide range of unarmed skills that I have done (as rare as a no gun location is in my life). It is also why I nag on the need for everyone (aikidoka included) to train with a worst case situation style of training. Start on your back and learn to stand up when someone doesn't' want you to. Then learn how to do all that stuff that looks good in demos.

I'm actually trying to get back into an aikido gym right now after years of judo and bjj. It has nothing to do with self defense. it has everything to do however with just doing something different for a while and focusing on something I'm not very good at. (I'd must rather do something I suck at then something I'm good at).

As a side note, I train more often to use, control, and keep my pistol than I ever have at unarmed defense.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-06-2011, 10:47 AM   #113
LinTal
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post

I'm actually trying to get back into an aikido gym right now after years of judo and bjj. It has nothing to do with self defense. it has everything to do however with just doing something different for a while and focusing on something I'm not very good at. (I'd must rather do something I suck at then something I'm good at).
As another side note, have you given any thought to why you feel not as effective at aikido? I'd be very interested to get your perspective on the factors. Perhaps it's a conflict of philosophy?

Last edited by LinTal : 11-06-2011 at 10:57 AM.

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Old 11-07-2011, 06:43 AM   #114
ryback
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Aikido techniques were developed in feudal Japan to be used in the battlefield, so in my opinion, there is no question whether it is effective or not in a street situation.Martial arts training is much more complex and deep than just "sreet effectiveness" but that doesn't mean that to defend yourself during a street attack is an easy task.One should avoid any kind of fighting situation if possible and if it's not, one should defend himself to the best of his abillities.But before all that should come the abillity to be aware of his suroundings and environment, a martial state of mind that can prove to be very helpfull in order to avoid a difficult situation, or react fast and effectivelly if he has to.People are getting increasingly "addicted" to walking with a pair of walkman headphones plugged in their ears, or "daydreaming",or being absent-minded e.t.c. So rule number one should be "pay attention, be aware" and Aikido teaches us how to do it and how to be aware of all eight directions. All we have to do is practice and then apply all our knowlegde in our daily lives...
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Old 11-07-2011, 08:23 AM   #115
Eric Joyce
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
Aikido techniques were developed in feudal Japan to be used in the battlefield, so in my opinion, there is no question whether it is effective or not in a street situation.
To my knowledge from what I have read and researched, jujutsu was the art used on the battlefield, not aikido. I hear aikidoka say this all the time and it drives me nuts. The art used on the battlefield before the 17th century had names like: kogusoku koshi no mawari, torite, yawara and kumiuchi which were supplemental to their main art like kenjutsu or other battlefield weapons during that time.

During the 17th century and beyond, the term jujutsu was used more. Words, terms and history matter. Let's not re-invent it. Nothing against aikido, but it is a modern creation with historical links to DR.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:45 PM   #116
Cliff Judge
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
To my knowledge from what I have read and researched, jujutsu was the art used on the battlefield, not aikido. I hear aikidoka say this all the time and it drives me nuts. The art used on the battlefield before the 17th century had names like: kogusoku koshi no mawari, torite, yawara and kumiuchi which were supplemental to their main art like kenjutsu or other battlefield weapons during that time.

During the 17th century and beyond, the term jujutsu was used more. Words, terms and history matter. Let's not re-invent it. Nothing against aikido, but it is a modern creation with historical links to DR.
It looks to me like he said aikido techniques were developed on the battlefield, not aikido. I think you have to admit that he's got a point there - Aikido's core techniques have been around for quite awhile. Whether you can effectively apply these techniques in a street situation if you practice them within Aikido is a better argument to have.
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Old 11-08-2011, 01:03 AM   #117
ryback
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
It looks to me like he said aikido techniques were developed on the battlefield, not aikido. I think you have to admit that he's got a point there - Aikido's core techniques have been around for quite awhile. Whether you can effectively apply these techniques in a street situation if you practice them within Aikido is a better argument to have.
Thank you Cliff, that's what i said. Although Eric's post is historically accurate, the misunderstanding was, that what i actually said is that the techniques pre-existed the development of aikido, so we are agreed anyway. O'sensei himself learned them studying Daito-ryu aiki jutsu with Sokaku Takeda and the aiki principles and techniques were already a legacy of the Minamoto clan of which Takeda was a descendant.But that was more of an intro to my post than an historic reference because i didn't want to miss the point of the topic.There are different ways in which people train in aikido, if you study it in the practical direction (without missing the esoteric ellements, they are one and the same in my opinion) you can be more than effective in a street situation.The point that i wanted to make is that aikido, having its roots in the battlefield, teaches us many ways of how to be aware, avoid a fight or be fast and effective in our reaction than just techniques.The waza is of course the most important part, but one has to be aware of his surroundings and focused all the time in order to use it effectivelly when the time comes and he has no other choice in the street...Thank you both Cliff and Eric for reading my post and replying.
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Old 11-08-2011, 02:10 AM   #118
Benjamin Mehner
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

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Chris Evans wrote: View Post

When "push comes to shove" I have a haunch that strong aikido and a 45ACP pistol may be all that is really needed in close quarters, in a street, home, or in an airplane to resist "evil."
One of my instructors (who is not only a 3rd dan Aikidoka, but a 5th dan Karateka) upon telling him that I was going to buy a gun told me "You need stopping power. You need a .45. You shoot some crazy guy or some guy on drugs, you might kill him but he might kill you before he dies if you shoot him with something less. You need a .45. It will drop any man."

His Aikido is pretty damn good, and I know his Karate is great, so I don't doubt him for a moment. I have always believed that in a world of guns some confrontations can only be solved by guns. Its not pretty, its not harmonious, but it is real.

Let silence be my mantra.
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Old 11-08-2011, 08:16 AM   #119
Cliff Judge
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Benjamin Mehner wrote: View Post
One of my instructors (who is not only a 3rd dan Aikidoka, but a 5th dan Karateka) upon telling him that I was going to buy a gun told me "You need stopping power. You need a .45. You shoot some crazy guy or some guy on drugs, you might kill him but he might kill you before he dies if you shoot him with something less. You need a .45. It will drop any man."

His Aikido is pretty damn good, and I know his Karate is great, so I don't doubt him for a moment. I have always believed that in a world of guns some confrontations can only be solved by guns. Its not pretty, its not harmonious, but it is real.
It costs more to practice than with .40 or 9mm, though.
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Old 11-08-2011, 11:32 AM   #120
genin
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Perhaps it's better said that in combat, having a weapon of any sort is preferable to relying solely on your Aikido skills. Clearly, firearms are good weapons. And .45's do the job as good as any, but it's probably not relevant to continue to bring up why a certain firearm is superior to other weapons...at least as it relates to this thread.
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Old 11-08-2011, 08:57 PM   #121
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

My understanding from Australian statistics involving homicide is that guns overrepresent in the deaths of self (e.g. suicide), loved ones, family and friends as compared to 'the street'. Its an approach that lead to the restriction of availability in Australia and lowering over these cases.
Thus for the lay person (rather than professional) arts like Aikido, whilst less decisive and arguably empowering, are far less likely to lead to the sad stories you read in the newspaper.

dan

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Old 11-10-2011, 05:34 AM   #122
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Selin Talay wrote: View Post
As another side note, have you given any thought to why you feel not as effective at aikido? I'd be very interested to get your perspective on the factors. Perhaps it's a conflict of philosophy?
Mostly because the techniques and movements I've been taught rely on fine motor control and perfectly timed movements.

Boxing, BJJ, and Judo are 'rougher' and more forgiving in their application. Screwing up a bjj technique or judo technique ends with you in the same defensive position you started in. Screwing up a aikido technique frequently gives up your protective position at best, and at worst ends up with you holding hands with a man while he punches you in the face. As such, being good at aikido in a 'street' sense is going to require a lot more work than being good at punching another man in the face while not getting punched. I do not have this skill level because i have not put in the time needed. I went off to work on arts with more "hands on" approach to learning.

Coming back now has nothing to do with trying to learn to defend myself. I think I have that as covered as I would care to be. It's more about challenging myself to learn something and testing my own limits of ability.

Last edited by DonMagee : 11-10-2011 at 05:40 AM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-21-2011, 01:35 AM   #123
Aikironin21
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

A little background about myself. I trained in Kajukembo from around age eight or nine, till I was fourteen or so when I started playing football in highschool. I picked up Aikido, when I was nineteen and have been training ever since. My first two and half maybe three years in Aikido, I was hopeless!!! I started my career as a correctional officer within my third year of Aikido training, which was when Aikido started making sense to me physically. In the academy I sailed through arrest and control which was all Koga method.

I hit the line in the California Penal System in April of 97. I work at an institution with a medical and psych mission. along side general population inmates. Although a Level III institution we housed many Level IV overrides with pysch issues as well as Department of Mental Health program. Up to this point, everything I had learned in Aikido was theory! My second year on the job, I was assigned to one of the worst housing units in the institution. My Aikido education, was sent into overdrive. Where most Aikidoka hone their skills on compliant partners in the dojo, I was blessed to have the opportunities to apply what I was learning on people who were fully resisting, with back-up on the way just in case. These experiences changed my Aikido and how looked at training. Coming from a hard style background in Kajukenbo, I already had more aggressive tendencies in Aikido.

We have a saying in Corrections which is, "You can always go in strict and by the book, and relax over time, as you get to learn your inmates and they learn you." I went into Aikido hard, and learned to relax over time as well. Some of my best Aikido has been "sloppy" Aikido in real life situations. I think many of us fall in love with an ideal, that may prove to be impractical for our skill level or understanding. Seeking a technique, you become sold on it, and fight for it passing up other opportunities, in order to create the opening for your ideal.

Aikido flows.Concentrate on blending and entering of the line of attack. You can do this and maintain your guard to prevent from being hit. Nothing says, in the street, you have to keep your hands straight out in front, as in many youtube demonstrations. Get that initial entry and blend and see what is available. In my experience I have used ikyo, nikyo, sankyo, kote gaeshi, and sumi otoshi; on fully resisting people. I was surprised to realize, I wasn't rushing through techniques the way we sometimes do in class when we feel we are being realistic. In fact, I was moving very near the practice speed in class, even though the person I was applying the technique to, was moving much faster than any uke I ever trained with.

The next key, is to capture the elbow! Too many people I have trained with, practice to catch a punch or strike. Forget all that! Blend and entry take care of the strike for the most part. Make contact at the elbow, and you can quickly control center, and then adjust to the wrist or hand, after you have affected his center. Try for the wrist or hand before, and you end up in a fight over that wrist or hand. Affect uke's center first, and you have given yourself options, even beyond the techniques of Aikido. While uke is adjusting his center to regain control, you apply your technique to the appropriate wrist or hand.

Don't expect your attacker to react like a regular uke. There are two types of people in the world. Those that will back down to protect a wrist twisted to the brink, and those who will gnaw off their own arm just to knock you out. In the dojo, we practice to protect uke. In real life, you must be prepared to take that technique as far as is needed to gain compliance. If that means breaking or dislocating then that's what you do. You don't twist a little and see. You twist that thing down into the ground till he drops and/or something snaps. If you play with many techniques, with adrenaline mixed in, you may not have the momentum to finish the technique. Go with the flow of the moment, with no hesitation.

Take the stops out of your training! In class, when you make a mistake, don't just give yourself a face palm and then start over or back up to where you think you messed up. This has to do with some of the sensei too. There is always a viable technique present. If you made a mistake on the initial, continue the flow past it, till either it is present again, or take a different technique that is present. Too often we stop in our training to make adjustments. We are training stops into our technique. This results in the inevitable "freeze" when we are faced with actual resistance. We fix this by not stopping in our training and adding resistance into the equation.

Give yourself time. I feel my learning curve was accelerated, due to the opportunities of utilizing what I was learning frequently, on resisting individuals. Most dojo aren't going to allow full resistance, and you wouldn't want to injure a friend, practicing full speed. This means you will need to give yourself time to gradually build up the amount of resistance uke puts up against your technique. As a beginner there will no resistance as you are still literally learning to walk. In a few months, uke begins testing your extension and proper position. In a few years, uke can be actively trying to stop or counter your techniques. Add to this some more modern and realistic attacks, and you may see a difference in how you approach Aikido as a defense.

As you do this training you will see where your Aikido ability starts and ends. This is very grounding, in that, you aren't walking around thinking when someone attempts to strike you to the side of your head, you will do this beautiful shihonage, because you practiced it in class last week. If your sensei does not allow this type of training, try to find people in your class who are looking for the same type of experience. You may have to meet outside of the dojo for some extra practice on your own.

Lastly, once you have built some real tangible skills, you may find a need to redefine or learn the difference between a fight and self defense. In a fight you are basically doing two things. You are trying to not take on or minimize damage to yourself, while simultaneously trying to inflict and or maximize damage to your opponent. In self defense, you are merely trying to prevent injury to yourself. Now is fighting a means of self defense? Yes, of course. If you react to your attacker with overwhelming force then your odds of injury are reduced proportional to his inability to continue the attack. Most people sign on to this school of thought. In self defense, you only need to prevent injury to yourself. If this means you see a bully walking down the street, you take the next street, and have successfully defended yourself from his would be onslaught. Say you can't walk tot he next street and he is in your face. You could block, parry, and side step his attacks till he gets tired or bored, and again you successfully defended yourself.

That being said, you aren't going to use Aikido to fight by itself. You can successfully defend yourself to a point. That point has to do with your ability to apply and the constitution of your attacker. You may very well be able to blend and enter his attacks, avoiding injury. This may discourage him enough that he quits, but someone who is more devoted to hurting you, may need to take some damage before realizing you aren't the one today. This is why being familiar with effective striking techniques is beneficial. You may be able to break a wrist or dislocate a joint, but how long will that take to heal, compared to say a bloodied nose or blackened eye? In the end, which is more in line with Aiki principles; injuring a joint in which he may lose the use of for weeks or months, or a bloody nose that stops within the hour, or bruised cheek that doesn't otherwise hinder him, and is back to normal in a few days, maybe a couple of weeks?
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Old 11-21-2011, 03:03 AM   #124
St Matt
Join Date: Dec 2010
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Excellent post Larry - thank you!!
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Old 11-21-2011, 03:02 PM   #125
LinTal
Dojo: Aikido Terrey Hills
Location: Sydney
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Australia
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Great perspective Larry... lots of food for thought there.

The world changes when you do.
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