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Old 11-06-2011, 01:32 AM   #51
Mario Tobias
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Re: high breakfalls?

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
Hello Mario, I'm not sure I understand your question.
There are certain situations where before the throw uke has a split second choice that he can do a roll or a high breakfall but he does the breakfall anyway. then there are some situations where nage is in full control and uke doesn't have a choice. In these situations, as the other poster said (probably because of your intensive ukemi training) the body goes on autopilot. You're OK after the fall, you meet the ground and sometimes, you don't know what had just happened. You just remember being flipped. You just let go and trust your experience will save you from injury.

Last edited by Mario Tobias : 11-06-2011 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:51 PM   #52
Lyle Laizure
 
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Dojo: Hinode Dojo LLC
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
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Re: high breakfalls?

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
There are certain situations where before the throw uke has a split second choice that he can do a roll or a high breakfall but he does the breakfall anyway. then there are some situations where nage is in full control and uke doesn't have a choice. In these situations, as the other poster said (probably because of your intensive ukemi training) the body goes on autopilot. You're OK after the fall, you meet the ground and sometimes, you don't know what had just happened. You just remember being flipped. You just let go and trust your experience will save you from injury.
I have found that when uke has the option of taking a fall or not, whether or not it is a roll or breakfall it means one of two things. Either the nage's techniques is wanting and or uke's attack wasn't very sincere.

The autopilot I understand. Most times when my sensei throws me, one second he is there the next I am on the ground and it isn't a painful experience at all.

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:56 PM   #53
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: high breakfalls?

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Hi Lyle, being older, working sometimes with older beginners, and believing that fear and pain create bad body habits, I am a big fan of Ellis Amdur's approach per his DVD "Ukemi From The Ground Up" because it builds on a simple low impact approach with repetitions of things that can be done in a very relaxed way. The very tiny exposure I've had to Systema has also reinforced my focus on relaxation and simple movement.
Don't get me wrong, I don't just start people off flipping through the air. I haven't seen the video you mentioned but I am careful to be sure a student can safely roll from a seated position before standing them up and eventually sending them through the air. I agree older students face different challenges when beginning their training and each student is an individual and has to be taught on their current level. On occasion though there are those that just catch it and move quickly through the stages.

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 11-06-2011, 03:36 PM   #54
kewms
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Re: high breakfalls?

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Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
I have found that when uke has the option of taking a fall or not, whether or not it is a roll or breakfall it means one of two things. Either the nage's techniques is wanting and or uke's attack wasn't very sincere.
To an extent... Nage's technique may be fine, but he may have consciously or unconsciously chosen to give uke a choice, perhaps because of the difficulty of some of the ukemi options.

My teacher warns people not to judge their own technique by uke's failure to take a particular fall. Maybe uke did something dumb. Maybe uke disconnected just a little early because they were anticipating the fall. If nage ends up stable, balanced, and in a safe or (better) advantageous position, they did fine.

Katherine
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:22 PM   #55
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: high breakfalls?

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
To an extent... Nage's technique may be fine, but he may have consciously or unconsciously chosen to give uke a choice, perhaps because of the difficulty of some of the ukemi options.

My teacher warns people not to judge their own technique by uke's failure to take a particular fall. Maybe uke did something dumb. Maybe uke disconnected just a little early because they were anticipating the fall. If nage ends up stable, balanced, and in a safe or (better) advantageous position, they did fine.

Katherine
Hello Katherine - I agree that uke's failure to take a particular fall should not be a means of judging nage's technique for the most part. Safety should be, and is my first priority. And yes I beleive, as you stated, if nage ends up stable etc then yes they did fine.

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 12-09-2011, 01:04 AM   #56
renshin
 
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Re: high breakfalls?

Koshi nage doesn't require hard falls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJDb5KbMiBY

Yours friendly,

K. Sandven

Blog: My Life In Budo

Aikido • Tenshinshoden Katori Shinto Ryu • Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai
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Old 12-09-2011, 03:19 AM   #57
amoeba
Dojo: Aikido Netzwerk
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Re: high breakfalls?

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
I am frankly not a fan of high break falls. Step outside and do a high break fall on the pavement. Besides the obvious results of such an adventure, the high break fall keeps me from staying connected to the nage so that I can continue my attack.

I teach students proper ukemi. Maintain a connection with the nage, Conform and dissipate the force so as to first, learn to change levels safely; secondly neutralize the incoming force; finally, return the force - all while maintaining your center and structure. If you are doing these things correctly and you are thrown in such a manner that you really do have to do a high fall, your body will conform to the forces so that you do not get injured.

Launching yourself into the air breaks the ki flow, which tends to increase the risk of injuries when being tossed on hard surfaces. I have done sacrifice throws and have been tossed on hard wood floors and pavement without bruises or injuries because of the above-mentioned factors. Not many people want to try practicing that way very often; I wonder why?

Marc Abrams
I know the posting is quite old, but well...

Actually, I've done breakfalls on every kind of floor. Tatami, sure, but also lawn, wood and, yes, concrete. No pain at all (excpet on asphalt it will probably abrase your skin, but then a forward roll would probably be worse...)

And in our direction, I don't feel at all that the fall breaks the connection. On the contrary, it's quite often the only way to follow the technique through. But maybe that's because we never "launch ourselves into the air", we're just thrown and follow, which, depending on the throw, results in the breakfall. But Carsten has already written a lot about that, I think.

For the teaching: in our dojo, we normally teach it when people want to learn it, which can be after a few months if you're confident and fit (my boyfried was really eager there... ) or after years. A lot of people start at quite an advanced age and are not too sporty for that, so they tend to go slower. And some never get very good at it, which is completely okay.

But with an uke who cannot so highfalls, you always have to adjust your technique so it's possible to do a backward roll.
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