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Old 10-26-2011, 01:13 AM   #1
Guillaume Erard
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Do symbol Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to let you kwow that I just put online a 20-minutes documentary on Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Takumakai. You will find a bit of history, some technical explanations, and an interview with Kobayashi Kyohiro Sensei, the chairman of the Osaka branch of the Takumakai. I have subtitled it in both English and French.

I hope you will enjoy it!

G
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:18 AM   #2
grondahl
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Excellent. Very close resemblence to aikido. The ushiro eridori-techniques around three minutes in is textbook aikido kihon waza.
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Old 10-26-2011, 05:01 AM   #3
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Very interesting.

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Old 10-26-2011, 07:49 AM   #4
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

I really enjoyed that! Thank you. I really like the Takumakai and what they do. Mr. Kobayashi looks like a very good teacher. You are lucky.

Best regards,

Chris Covington
Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu kenjutsu
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Old 10-26-2011, 07:54 AM   #5
Guillaume Erard
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Quote:
Chris Covington wrote: View Post
Mr. Kobayashi looks like a very good teacher. You are lucky.
,
He is indeed very nice and very open. This weekend I am going down to Shikoku for a seminar with Chiba Sensei, one of the heads of the Takumakai, quite excited indeed!
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Old 10-31-2011, 03:25 PM   #6
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

I really enjoyed this video. Even though I could not understand all of it, the techniques were interesting to watch.

Thank you for sharing.

Dean.

"flows like water, reflects like a mirror, and responds like an echo." Chaung-tse
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Old 10-31-2011, 04:57 PM   #7
Guillaume Erard
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Quote:
Dean Suter wrote: View Post
I really enjoyed this video. Even though I could not understand all of it, the techniques were interesting to watch.
Does this come form a subtitling problem? I am happy to fix them if necessary.
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Old 11-01-2011, 01:56 AM   #8
sorokod
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Some more of that strong old wine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZczkJwsFFA

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Old 11-01-2011, 10:39 PM   #9
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Thanks for putting that up! It's appreciated!

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Old 11-01-2011, 11:56 PM   #10
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

A couple of quotes I found interesting:
Quote:
That being said, Takuma Sensei started under Ueshiba Sensei in what corresponds today to Yoshinkan Aikido.
Quote:
In fact, Yoshinkan techniques really looked like Hisa Takuma Sensei's techniques. The techniques taught at the Asahi newspaper were conform to those taught in Tokyo at the Yoshinkan Iidabashi dojo. At the Aikikai however, it was a bit different.
I find these two quotes interesting because of the speculation that Shioda learned something beyond what he learned in aikido from his 12 training sessions with Kodo Horikawa. These quotes suggest: a) that's not so, because the Takumakai and Yoshinkan conform b) what Horikawa offered was not only different/beyond that of Ueshiba, but different from the Takumakai.

Quote:
The technical director for Kansai was Kisshomaru Sensei but the club was still under the supervision of Takuma Sensei. It is Takuma Sensei who asked Kobayashi Hirokazu Sensei to be the Aikikai person in charge of the club since Kobayashi had been a close student of Takuma in the past.
I find this one interesting because I once read an article in which Tokimune observed Kobayashi and said, "This is real Daito-ryu. No one is doing this anymore." Kobayashi was also a close student of Ueshiba M. From whom did he get his "real Daito-ryu?"

Ellis Amdur

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Old 11-02-2011, 07:32 AM   #11
Guillaume Erard
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Kobayashi was also a close student of Ueshiba M. From whom did he get his "real Daito-ryu?"
Ellis Amdur
Hi Ellis, thanks for your input, really interesting comments that are mostly beyond my own understanding unfortunately! About Kobayashi Hirokazu, it is quite hard to know what Tokimune meant. did he mean that the notion of nagare was absent from daito-ryu? or was it another technical aspect? I would buy the notion of nagare as Kobayashi Sensei had indeed studied with Takuma Sensei and of course with Ueshiba Sensei. With this solid daito-ryu background and the instruction of Ueshiba Sensei, perhaps he managed to develop something that students of either arts could not achieve? Do you know precisely what Tokimune meant?

By the way, this quote awfully resembles the one attributed to Jigoro Kano when he so Ueshiba Sensei's technique "this is Judo as it should be..." (or something to that effect).

Last edited by Guillaume Erard : 11-02-2011 at 07:33 AM. Reason: spelling mistake
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:18 AM   #12
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Guillaume -

1. I forgot in my "a" and "b" to put OR - because those two propositions are mutually exclusive.
2. You made me smile with your recollection of Kano statement regarding "true budo." Because there are so many layers, some mutually exclusive, which such a statement can entertain. Everything from humility to "killing someone with praise." One of the nastiest statements I used to get in Japan would be, after observing my practice, some Japanese budoka would say, "nesshin desu ne?" (which literally means, "you are really dedicated" - but depending on the person could mean anything from "you are sweaty, crude and eager," "you are crazy, obsessed with what should merely be a hobby in these modern times," "embarrassing us Japanese by caring more about this than we do," "like a big puppy that is trying to run after the big dogs with no hope whatsoever of catching up," etc.

Best
Ellis

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Old 11-02-2011, 09:48 AM   #13
Guillaume Erard
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Guillaume -
One of the nastiest statements I used to get in Japan would be, after observing my practice, some Japanese budoka would say, "nesshin desu ne?" (which literally means, "you are really dedicated" - but depending on the person could mean anything from "you are sweaty, crude and eager," "you are crazy, obsessed with what should merely be a hobby in these modern times," "embarrassing us Japanese by caring more about this than we do," "like a big puppy that is trying to run after the big dogs with no hope whatsoever of catching up," etc.
I see what you mean! I get that a lot in the form of being referred to as "dai-sempai" which as I understand can mean many things such as: technically proficient/powerful/brutal/making up for lack of technique with strength... the curse of being a big foreign guy in Japan I guess

More seriously, it illustrates the that Japanese language being so contextual, it really undermines the value of the interpretations that we can make from reading these sorts of interviews, and that is assuming that the person is not actually voluntarily misleading us...
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:57 AM   #14
Guillaume Erard
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Going back to your earlier comment Ellis, do you really think that one can learn anything substantial from 12 training sessions?

Also, I can kind of understand that Kobayashi Sensei might want to undermine a bit Ueshiba's myth but I don't really see what is in it for him in terms of saying that Yoshinkan resembles Asahi daito-ryu. I therefore take it that a) as probably true. That goes only for Takuma's waza as I have seen in my short experience that daito-ryu can differ a lot, not only from one organisation to the other, but from one Sensei to the other. Even within the Takumakai, it seems that different teachers were influenced by different students of Takeda Sensei, which were shown different things by the master. This results (as I saw last weekend in Shikoku) in some significant technical differences although the fundamental points remain.
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:14 AM   #15
Ellis Amdur
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Smile Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Guillaume -

1. Actually, I don't think Kobayashi sensei was trying to undermine Ueshiba here. I personally come down on the side of this simply intended to be phenomenology - two practices from the same period from the same teacher are largely the same.
2. At the same time, by maintaining contact with Ueshiba, I think that Shioda may have abandoned the DR "human origami" kata, while retaining the substance.
3. I personally lean towards Shioda being an exemplar of Ueshiba's teaching - that is, so far, the information I've gotten from the Yoshinkan - who directly communicated with me regarding the training Shioda did with Horikawa (however, I have one more central interlocutor to speak with before I have a strong opinion either way.
4. As for twelve sessions being insignificant - yes and no. Certainly, one cannot learn very many kata very well. But speaking personally, I've had, to date, three training sessions - of I think six days total with the person who methods of internal training I've been focusing on. And although I'm still merely scratching the surface, even that scratch has utterly transformed my Araki-ryu and Toda-ha Buko-ryu practice (without, I might add, changing the form). It's an example of new wine in old bottles. So it is entirely possible that Horikawa decided to teach essential principles and the training exercises to make them happen.
5. However, note that Tenryu stated that Shioda most closely resembled Ueshiba in his aikido. Given that, externally, they don't look much alike, in either form or often in execution, this suggests that Shioda got such essential teachings from his main instructor.

And at the same time, I'm aware that this has as much importance as counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

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Old 11-03-2011, 07:21 AM   #16
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

With all the important debate on the differences between Ueshiba Morihei and Ueshiba Kisshomaru's aikido, the following quotation from Stanley Pranin's latest article on Hisa Takuma is relevant:
Quote:
It is interesting to note that while Budo contains many Daito-ryu-like techniques, one's overall impression from viewing this film is that Ueshiba's techniques have already undergone a major transformation away from Sokaku Takeda's aikijujutsu toward the circular, flowing movements of modern aikido. Traces of these characteristics can be seen even today in the Daito-ryu aikijujutsu practiced by the Takumakai schools that preserve Hisa's technical legacy.
Ellis AMdur

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Old 11-03-2011, 03:27 PM   #17
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

I think making comparisons by using technique as an indicator is flawed from the get go. And Ellis is correct about time spent on learning IP/aiki as a different model than time spent being indoctrinated in waza. The fact that Ueshiba started rounding out, introducing projections- which are martially stupid, but in practice safer than vertical drops- and reducing waza....means little to me. We now know he was keeping the real goods in -for those who would listen.

Shioda's movement is what matters to me, not the techniques, which hardly matter at all. It is worth noting that many of his stock in trade public displays are right out of the box, DR kodokai tricks)
More important is that you can see the connection in him and the connection in Shirata. I have some private video of Shirata doing sword, which is miles above anything I have ever seen Ueshiba do. I have been widely criticized for stating that I was frankly unimpressed with Ueshiba's swordwork. Shirata had connection and it was on display in free movement with weapons.

Both of these men have had Daito ryu people watch their waza and proclaim "That is Daito ryu!" (note* with Shirata it was more so with his in-house teaching NOT wha he did at Hombu). So one can ask; where did they get their connection from? But it really isn't that hard to put together. Both were Daito ryu students of Ueshiba-in the era where Ueshiba was actively push-testing as part of his regular training (as all the IP guys do) and as I now have recently discovered -was the same time period in which he was apparently actively discussing internal training; to include spiral energy and how it effects all movement.
Some got it... to one degree or another.
In the end, Aikido's founder was yet another of the worlds internal artist. One who even pointed it out to those interested in listening.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-03-2011 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 11-03-2011, 08:47 PM   #18
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Hi Dan,

For what it's worth, we (dojo rats) looked at the video and all said, "Huh! Looks very familiar. (on a technical level if not IPaiki)" This started a conversation: Shirata took over the Osaka (a hot bed of Aikido/Daito Ryu) dojo from Yonekawa (often noted as the physically strongest at the time, bending six inch nails and banging bundles of rice, later stabbed to death) right before Takeda Showed up in Osaka and took over instruction at the Asahi dojo. Both dojo were Ueshiba's dojos prior to Takeda's arrival. I assume therefore that Takeda assumed that both were equally under his aegis and would have appeared at both. After all, his student was was teaching at both when in town. However, history tells us that it didn't quite pan out that way in the end. Asahi went to Takeda with HIsa "at the helm" and Osaka stayed with Ueshiba with Shirata "at the helm" before he was drafted. (Shirata was slated to be the Aiki Prof. at Manchukuo but due to his conscription Tomiki went.) Hisa himself says what they (Takeda/Ueshiba) were doing was the same stuff. Shirata, in public interviews, was tight lipped for, I think, obvious reasons. Actually, he was tight lipped about a lot of stuff that transpired at that time. HIs reward? Censure and essential relegation to obscurity. Nice! (But then I'm biased.)

BTW, there are some great Shirata quotes you might be interested in. Ones where he clearly points beyond waza. Hope to speak with you soon.

Kind regards,
Allen

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think making comparisons by using technique as an indicator is flawed from the get go. And Ellis is correct about time spent on learning IP/aiki as a different model than time spent being indoctrinated in waza. The fact that Ueshiba started rounding out, introducing projections- which are martially stupid, but in practice safer than vertical drops- and reducing waza....means little to me. We now know he was keeping the real goods in -for those who would listen.

Shioda's movement is what matters to me, not the techniques, which hardly matter at all. It is worth noting that many of his stock in trade public displays are right out of the box, DR kodokai tricks)
More important is that you can see the connection in him and the connection in Shirata. I have some private video of Shirata doing sword, which is miles above anything I have ever seen Ueshiba do. I have been widely criticized for stating that I was frankly unimpressed with Ueshiba's swordwork. Shirata had connection and it was on display in free movement with weapons.

Both of these men have had Daito ryu people watch their waza and proclaim "That is Daito ryu!" (note* with Shirata it was more so with his in-house teaching NOT wha he did at Hombu). So one can ask; where did they get their connection from? But it really isn't that hard to put together. Both were Daito ryu students of Ueshiba-in the era where Ueshiba was actively push-testing as part of his regular training (as all the IP guys do) and as I now have recently discovered -was the same time period in which he was apparently actively discussing internal training; to include spiral energy and how it effects all movement.
Some got it... to one degree or another.
In the end, Aikido's founder was yet another of the worlds internal artist. One who even pointed it out to those interested in listening.
Dan

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 11-03-2011, 08:53 PM   #19
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Yukawa was the strength titan who was stabbed to death in a drunken brawl. Yonekawa lived to a ripe old age.

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Old 11-03-2011, 09:19 PM   #20
Guillaume Erard
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Ellis,
Regarding Kobayashi Sensei trying to undermine Ueshiba, it might have to do with the interviewer. Instructors always consider me as an Aikidoka and therefore they often describe their teaching "in opposition" to Aikido. The word "undermine" was probably not well chosen, he probably tried to put his influence "into perspective".
I'd be interested to hear your conclusions about Shioda Sensei's influences, please let me know when you have spoken to that person.
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Old 11-03-2011, 11:25 PM   #21
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Yukawa was the strength titan who was stabbed to death in a drunken brawl. Yonekawa lived to a ripe old age.
Oops! That's what I get for typing under the influence of red wine. Thank you for the correction Ellis.

Sincerely,
Allen

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Old 11-04-2011, 10:12 AM   #22
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

A couple more tidbits. Yukawa and Shioda are both mentioned as having ties with Shirata.

Shirata said that Yukawa was the best of Ueshiba's senior deshi and that his teaching was generous and detailed (perhaps in contrast to "others"). There is a story that while still in middle school he showed up by himself at the Kodokan as a third dan and terrorized the place. Just to clarify I think he was killed some years later than the period we are discussing.

Shioda wasn't an uchi deshi, but seems to have been considered one of the group anyway. According to Shioda he would sneak out at night with Shirata to go out on the town. Ueshiba seems to always have noticed and would scold them the next day. Anyway they were pals until Shirata was drafted and sent to Manchuria in late '37.

-Doug Walker
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Old 11-04-2011, 11:56 AM   #23
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Hey Doug,

Thanks for not yelling at me about the "Yukawa thing" after you went to the effort of looking up his name and sending me his bio, pic, etc. after our conversation last week. I'd blame Mr. Merlot but you know better. Perhaps Allen was dropped on his head one too many times as a child (not to mention as an adult). More likely:

"Those that fly by the seat of their pants are destined for a rough landing!" ~ Allen Beebe

Sorry!

BTW, I just happened to see this morning that Stan posted a picture in AIKIDO JOURNAL featuring Hisa, Yukawa, and Shirata at Asahi. In the accompanying article he states, "A third precious document from this period was again the result of Hisa's efforts. This is a 16mm sound film made under Hisa's direction that is titled simply Budo. Budo was filmed in 1935 at the Asahi News dojo and features an amazing performance of technical virtuosity by Ueshiba. A young, powerful Takuma Hisa himself also makes a brief appearance as do Shigemi Yonekawa, Tsutomu Yukawa, and Rinjiro Shirata as Ueshiba's ukes." [Folks if you haven't looked Aikido Journal lately it is in full on renaissance mode! Stan is proving himself invaluable to Aikido yet again. Well worth a subscription!!] It seems the suppositions I made in our conversation are being substantiated. Strange how all of these bits of information come together out of the past at the same time.

http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2011/1...nin/#more-9829

Quote:
Doug Walker wrote: View Post
A couple more tidbits. Yukawa and Shioda are both mentioned as having ties with Shirata.

Shirata said that Yukawa was the best of Ueshiba's senior deshi and that his teaching was generous and detailed (perhaps in contrast to "others"). There is a story that while still in middle school he showed up by himself at the Kodokan as a third dan and terrorized the place. Just to clarify I think he was killed some years later than the period we are discussing.

Shioda wasn't an uchi deshi, but seems to have been considered one of the group anyway. According to Shioda he would sneak out at night with Shirata to go out on the town. Ueshiba seems to always have noticed and would scold them the next day. Anyway they were pals until Shirata was drafted and sent to Manchuria in late '37.

Last edited by Allen Beebe : 11-04-2011 at 11:57 AM. Reason: too, bits

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Old 11-04-2011, 01:16 PM   #24
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Re: Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu Documentary

Far be it from me to waggle a finger at some misplaced vowels. Maybe we should make everyone read the kanji.
Don't be too hard on yourself—I miss names on a daily basis.

-Doug Walker
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