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Old 11-02-2011, 10:21 AM   #76
kewms
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
When I say not to follow the rule in these circumstances that doesn't equal carry on past the point of the person tapping out. It means go no further but don't let go. If anything relax the pressure whilst still holding. This gives the person time to realize nothing has happened yet and the cause of the imagined danger is theirself. Thus they learn. Now you will have really earned their trust.

When they know you know the difference then the trust grows. They know they are in safe hands.

I have seen quite a few characters over the years who suffer from this phenomenon and usually sit back and watch for a while. Let's take nikkyo. A person does nikkyo and this fellow goes down hard or awkwardly with a whelp and nage immediately lets go. The uke complains and blames and nage feels bad and apologetic. Now this fellow moves onto the next partner and a version of what happened before reoccurs. I watch him work his way through the class or find an excuse to stop. Meanwhile there's two or three confused students all now scared to do nikkyo. It's quite amusing.

I now call him and go to apply nikkyo. He's already on the way down and pulling away both. Tapping his leg. My hold is relaxed, my attitude is calm and reassuring, my smile is warm. I point out nothing has happened yet and he relaxes. This opens the door to show him what a good nikkyo is and to show him how to relax in the face of it and then onto how to relax in the face of a not so good one also.
Why didn't you say so in the first place? Yes, this is a reasonable approach to this sort of situation.

Earlier in the thread, you scoffed at someone for using personal experiences to support a point of view. But examples and personal experiences are a lot more concrete than generalities and platitudes.

Katherine
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Old 11-02-2011, 11:09 AM   #77
graham christian
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
No, you can't have it both ways, because you're directly contradicting yourself. You can't say it's their right to decide what you're allowed to do to THEIR body, then say 'unless it's for a bad reason'. It's just not up to you. Sorry. Your opinion, no matter how correct and brilliant and insightful, just doesn't MATTER.

It's not like it's even that hard to convince someone to go really slowly and show them you'll keep going really slowly and let them discover for themselves that it doesn't hurt as soon as they thought it would. I've done that more than once, and I'm not even particularly advanced, nor do I claim to have your exceptional judgment or ability to read the situation. If you go slowly and smoothly, you don't even HAVE to be a genius or know your partner better than they know themselves.
Basia. I just recognised and pointed out in the above reply to Jon that some may think I'm taliking about pins. Not so.

In my examples no one is DOING anything TO or AGAINST the others body. Quite the reverse.

Which part of 'tapping out BEFORE you've done anything are you confused about?

I specifically point to those who tap out in anticipation. That's very specific. Maybe I should add continually.

Anyone taking this outside of that specific group I can only think are either not used to it, oblivious to it or just argumentative.

You, as some others have done, go on to say how I claim an exceptional ability and you go further calling it genius. I'm amazed once again. All I can say is if you few represent the majority then no wonder Aikido is floundering.

Either therefore I am exceptional or else what I consider normal and standard is far higher than what most do.

I ask you to consider not blindly stick to a rule. I could give many examples where it's best not to let go when uke is tapping, for their own good and I may add to prevent injury or 'further' injury. Many my friend, not one or two. The solution is and always will be differentiation whether you like it or not. For example tapping out is a communication and knowing instantly what that communication is is necessary. So it's not just tapping out is tapping out is tapping out.

Now, I'm tapping out.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-02-2011, 11:28 AM   #78
graham christian
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Why didn't you say so in the first place? Yes, this is a reasonable approach to this sort of situation.

Earlier in the thread, you scoffed at someone for using personal experiences to support a point of view. But examples and personal experiences are a lot more concrete than generalities and platitudes.

Katherine
Ahhh. Thank you. At last.

Yes Katherine I am guilty on no doubt a few counts. I am guilty of not putting it in a clear enough way. I am guilty of assuming enough words were put in the right way to convey my concept. I am guilty of no doubt a few more things as befits communication on a forum.

I am also guilty of putting things as you describe in a concrete way based on personal experience for example in real life situations or on the mat only to be disbelieved or scoffed at.

Different strokes for different folks I would say.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-02-2011, 11:49 AM   #79
Basia Halliop
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Maybe we're misunderstanding each other in part, but it's possible we may also partly disagree.

I don't actually think you have an exceptional ability, by the way, I just think it wouldn't matter one way or another if you do. The reason I said that was because I understood you to be implying that it's OK to override someone's clearly communicated choice if you know better than them. I was using exaggeration to disagree -- i.e., there is no level of excellence I can imagine which would give someone that right. If that's not what you were actually arguing, then sorry for misunderstanding.

Certainly, what someone is trying to communicate matters. E.g., in the case of the old lady, she's not in any way asking you to 'let go of her', and it's quite reasonable to suspect that she in fact probably hopes you won't, so clearly you should not do so (at least not without asking her to clarify and being quite sure that's what she wants). She's just saying 'something's wrong', so you stop and figure out what's wrong and what she wants you do to or not do. That I certainly agree with.

If they're not telling you to let go of them, if that's not what tapping means in your dojo, then sure, it's different. If they just mean 'stop increasing the pressure', then stop increasing the pressure. And of course much communication can be non-verbal - you can communicate a lot with a pause or a raised eyebrow.

All I insist on is that if they ARE clearly communicating a choice to you (e.g., stop putting on the pressure, stop touching me, don't do that again, whatever it is that they're telling you), then you have no right to go against their choice, regardless of whether their choice is a poor choice or a good choice or even just a silly choice. (although you are of course free to try to change their mind). Several of your posts gave me a strong impression that you don't fully agree with this principle. If that's not what you meant, then perhaps we don't actually disagree.

Certainly, I think we agree that you need to look at the situation and see what's actually being communicated and make sure you and uke are on the same page. No disagreement there.

The 'someone trying to kill you' example is spurious, IMO. We are not talking about situations where your own safety is in danger.

Quote:
Earlier in the thread, you scoffed at someone for using personal experiences to support a point of view. But examples and personal experiences are a lot more concrete than generalities and platitudes.
Yes, sometimes it's easier to see what someone really means with an example.
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Old 11-02-2011, 11:58 AM   #80
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Which part of 'tapping out BEFORE you've done anything are you confused about?
I believe you're talking about the sort of situation where, e.g., you start to put your hands in a position to do something, and they tap before you actually put any pressure on at all. I just think it doesn't change the question. They do have the right to ask you to let go of them before you do anything, to not put a joint lock on them at all, etc, even if you are in no way hurting them or even really doing anything. Of course there are many ways, (both verbal and non verbal), to convince them to change their mind, and some of these 'conversations' can happen quickly with body language, where you can 'ask' in a non verbal way and they can 'agree' in a non verbal way, but you both understand each other and agree so it's fine.
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Old 11-02-2011, 12:30 PM   #81
kewms
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Point 3. Not agreed. Students come to be taught well and thus the Sensei is already empowered to correct and improve otherwise why is the student or the sensei there?
All the good teachers I've encountered understand that their position of power means they must be MORE trustworthy. Trust cannot be demanded, it must be freely given.

Katherine
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Old 11-02-2011, 12:43 PM   #82
graham christian
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I believe you're talking about the sort of situation where, e.g., you start to put your hands in a position to do something, and they tap before you actually put any pressure on at all. I just think it doesn't change the question. They do have the right to ask you to let go of them before you do anything, to not put a joint lock on them at all, etc, even if you are in no way hurting them or even really doing anything. Of course there are many ways, (both verbal and non verbal), to convince them to change their mind, and some of these 'conversations' can happen quickly with body language, where you can 'ask' in a non verbal way and they can 'agree' in a non verbal way, but you both understand each other and agree so it's fine.
Thanks for that reply. I can assure you if the tapping out is a 'let go' communication then I let go.

I think you'll find in the example of nikkyo the communication is not 'let go' in fact it's more of a panick reaction.

Anyway, I'll now add a bit of history just for your amusement rather than for debate. How I was taught. Not however how I teach. Old school I'd call it.

When doing so called warm ups in the advanced classes we would be doing things continuously for at least half an hour. Aikitaiso would be done according to what he called out in number ie: Backward ukemi ten, followed by ten, followed by twenty, followed by foreward ukemi ten etc. etc. non stop. Continuous foreward ukemis around the mat from kness and backward too. Now his rules were different. He would walk around with his little stick. If you floundered, whack. If you complained bigger wack. If you tapped out through exhaustion whack. His rule was 'you've had enough when I say you have'

Strange as it may seem we liked it and it took us to getting through barriers we were sure we couldn't. No one ever got injured this way either. A few red patches ha,ha.

Meanwhile when it came to pins if you complained he'd do it more. If you whelped or said anything at all in any manner he'd do it more. His rules here were but two. If you tap out early you're gonna feel pain. If you use your mouth in any way your gonna feel extreme pain. On the other side of the coin was if you tap out when you are certain it's 'on' and you are correct AND you tap out in complete silence he would immediately let go and tell you well done.

Once again shock, horror, he overrode ukes determinism as standard procedure. Once again he always seemed to know how far he could go as no one ever got up injured. Once again a different set of lessons learned. Once again we all enjoyed it too. Well, the five of us who survived that class as three said not for them thank you very much.

I don't know how close that type of training is to old school Japanese training but we were led to believe so. It was almost a cardinal sin and sign of complete and utter weakness to even murmur if you felt pain yet it was also a cardinal sin not to let go if the person tapped without any sound coming from their mouth.

Just a little window into the past or rather my past. Funny thing is they are still fond memories.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-02-2011, 12:49 PM   #83
graham christian
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
All the good teachers I've encountered understand that their position of power means they must be MORE trustworthy. Trust cannot be demanded, it must be freely given.

Katherine
Couldn't agree more. Demand is not in my 'vocabulary' so to speak. With greater power comes the need for even greater responsibility.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-02-2011, 01:36 PM   #84
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Jon. I've explained as best I can. When expanding on the point for clarification then comments such as digging a whole don't make sense. So, not knowing why you see what you do in what I've written I'll attempt to clarify using your points. In post 56, you say "As I've said earlier you get ukes tapping out because of what they think is about to happen, usually based on past 'bad' experiences. That's not the time to let go." This is an advocation to assume authority over your partner and decline a request to cease the technique.

Point 2, agreed.
Point 4, Not agreed. Reread what I said and you'll see my view ie: Trust is increased through good capable handling. My 4th point was "Trust is earned by establishing safe and respectful training environments, not because you are sensei." In post 68 you say, "In a dojo it is, or should be, a place of inherent trust in each other otherwise in my opinion it's not a good dojo. Therefore trust should be given as soon as you step on the mat. When someone betrays that trust then you enter correction time and reprimand time. So my point is that you should always give your trust not wait for it to be earned."
Point 3. Not agreed. Students come to be taught well and thus the Sensei is already empowered to correct and improve otherwise why is the student or the sensei there? My 3rd point was "It is NEVER the role of the sensei to empower himself to "rectify" deficiencies in a student without obtaining consent from that student." A sensei should always seek consent from students. There is no discussion here, without consent you are committing assault.
Point1. If you don't understand through what I said then I have no other way of putting it. My 1st point was "Uke has the right to tap out whenever he wants, for whatever reason he sees fit. Nage has the obligation to respect and obey that request." In post 56, you say "As I've said earlier you get ukes tapping out because of what they think is about to happen, usually based on past 'bad' experiences. That's not the time to let go." Is this, or is this not an advocation to assume authority over your partner and decline a request to cease the technique.

Where you get trust is earned.............not because you are Sensei from I don't know.
In post 68 you say, "In a dojo it is, or should be, a place of inherent trust in each other otherwise in my opinion it's not a good dojo. Therefore trust should be given as soon as you step on the mat. When someone betrays that trust then you enter correction time and reprimand time. So my point is that you should always give your trust not wait for it to be earned." While you are using passive language, I can only assume the trust you are giving is to the instructional body, sensei. If that is not the case, perhaps you should be identify the subject of your sentences.

Where you get thoughts of pushing limits or assault from beggars belief.
In the US, acting upon an individual without his consent is a crime, assault. As pointed out above, you advocate action upon an individual, not necessarily with consent. Incidentally, I do not mention "beggars". Secondly, In my 2nd point, to which you responded "agree" in your post, You concede that partners who trust each other may use that trust to increase environmental stress in their training, to push their limits.

A simple fact of being able to differentiate seems to freak a lot of you out. I sit here in amazement wondering why?
I did not address this point because I have no position on the argument whether I am able to differentiate when my partner really wants to stop our interaction and when she is simply "bluffing". I am disturbed by your seeming advocation to continue interaction after your partner has asked you to stop.

As you and others here are always shouting about keeping it real then I feel sorry for you if you had to use a control technique for real. In real life the person will scream blue murder in order for you to let go 90% of the time NOT because it hurts but because they want to knock your block off.
What does this have to do with anything in my post? Is this based on a real-life experience that you wish to share as proof of your position? Didn't you chastise Katherine in post 64 for posting personal experiences to back up a point of view? Yes, as a tangental point, habitualized termination points can cause premature termination in real-world scenarios. Judo players who stop after a throw, officers who holster weapons after 3 rounds, aikido people who... Well, you get the point. However, this is not germaine to my post.

Another misunderstanding here I think is most who are unaware of what I'm talking about or against it seem to me to be talking purely about pins. I am not.
I mention this no where in my post, nor is it relevant to my post. This is another tangental point not germane to the conversation.

Pins come at the end of a move and when addressing only pins then what they say fits, I put them on side one of the coin also.
I mention this no where in my post, nor is it relevant to my post. This is another tangental point not germane to the conversation.

The situations I described had nothing to do with pins, in fact Nikkyo was the named technique I used for explanation.
I mention this no where in my post, nor is it relevant to my post. This is another tangental point not germane to the conversation.

While I'm at it let's get more real shall we? An example of tapping out in real life. You're helping an old lady or man up from a chair or a wheelchair. They put their hand out and asked you to help them up. Half way up they 'yelp' (equivalent to tapping out) Do you let go? No, you immediately move to make them comfortable and ask what's wrong.
This is a poor "real" scenario. As pointed out, this is not analogous to the thread. 1. the subject has consented to your aid; 2. the subject is damaged by an injury unrelated to your interaction (i.e. she would be in pain standing up whether or not you assisted).

Blindly following rules is no excuse. It makes you more blind.
I don't even know what this means. Except maybe some demeaning comment meant to imply you are not blind.

Regards.G.
I'll have a go at this to re-iterate my point about avoiding posts... I have edited your response to my post.

I wish I could edit with line-out, about half of your post is irrelevant to my request to clarify your existing points. As I said in my earlier post, instead of consolidating and clarifying the several post you have already made, you choose to make more posts with more tangental comments that require more explanation.

I don't necessarily have anything against your comments because I do not yet understand them. When I ask for clarification, I am being serious because I want to understand your points. Even if they are points with which I do not agree I appreciate differing perspectives.

On a grander scale, would it then agree that your larger perspective is that poor uke waza is a reflection of poor nage waza, since nage possesses and inherent right to correct uke, with or without his consent?
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:12 PM   #85
Joe McParland
 
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

The thread is a long read, so forgive me if someone's hit this point already:

If while performing a technique as nage you experience concerns about the performance of uke--too compliant, too resistant, or whatever--you've just been disrupted with something as hard as an atemi. Uke has, intentionally or unintentionally, taken your mind.

It's that same disruption of expected response--the leading, the entering, the turning, the off-balancing, the kiai, the atemi, the application of pain just so, …--that moves practitioners beyond the mechanics of technique ("form"). The concern that uke is "wrong," is a signal of nage's own expectation.

That's not to say that there's not a time for this or that kind of practice--or that uke is "right;" it's only a caution: masakatsu agatsu and all that.

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Old 11-03-2011, 12:38 AM   #86
graham christian
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I'll have a go at this to re-iterate my point about avoiding posts... I have edited your response to my post.

I wish I could edit with line-out, about half of your post is irrelevant to my request to clarify your existing points. As I said in my earlier post, instead of consolidating and clarifying the several post you have already made, you choose to make more posts with more tangental comments that require more explanation.

I don't necessarily have anything against your comments because I do not yet understand them. When I ask for clarification, I am being serious because I want to understand your points. Even if they are points with which I do not agree I appreciate differing perspectives.

On a grander scale, would it then agree that your larger perspective is that poor uke waza is a reflection of poor nage waza, since nage possesses and inherent right to correct uke, with or without his consent?
Hi Jon. A considered reply I must say. There is a confusion granted. On reading the thread I find I have already explained the points you mention. Thinking that I add some in case you think what springs to my mind, assumption on my part. Therefore I believe that it's either my meanings I have for the words I use being different to yours or finding a way of putting it befitting to you.

So I'll just take what you ask above for my aim is to be understood as yours is to understand after which point I'm happy with either agreement or disagreement.

So the answer to your question is no, that's not my perspective. So you can throw that idea away and proceed to your next question for I am averse to assuming what it may be.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-03-2011, 02:51 AM   #87
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

I'm glad that my dojos' students (I've been training in 2 dojos) are not very compliant. they love sports so they can put enough resistance. sometimes even too much that I wasn't able to do the technique.. although, the skinny ones can't put up enough resistance I was hoping for..

my previous dojo concentrate on the "Musubi" concept so we have to put forth some pressure against our partners, while my current dojo concentrate on making the techniques work so the teacher gets fussy whenever a student falls on his own..
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Old 11-03-2011, 07:33 AM   #88
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Joe McParland wrote: View Post
If while performing a technique as nage you experience concerns about the performance of uke--too compliant, too resistant, or whatever--you've just been disrupted with something as hard as an atemi. Uke has, intentionally or unintentionally, taken your mind.
Hi Joe -

Your remark puts this thread to rest.

Best,

Ron

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Old 11-03-2011, 08:20 AM   #89
raul rodrigo
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

So when Tsuruzo Miyamoto 7th dan corrects an uchi deshi of Hombu Dojo for a mistake in his ukemi with a swift punch to the midsection (something I saw firsthand), whose mind has been taken? Who has been disrupted?
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Old 11-03-2011, 10:56 AM   #90
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
So when Tsuruzo Miyamoto 7th dan corrects an uchi deshi of Hombu Dojo for a mistake in his ukemi with a swift punch to the midsection (something I saw firsthand), whose mind has been taken? Who has been disrupted?
I think that is a bit vague... I mean, how many times did he try to help him correct his ukemi? If that doesn't sink in, occassionally, showing them why taking ukemi that way is wrong is helpful. My instructor commonly showed me why not to do things by lightly throwing an atemi at my face or stomach. Plus, if this reaction was natural for the sensei.... then it can be argued that his mind wasn't taken at all and that he remained in the moment. If it was planned, vicious and done with malice.... then that is a different story. Your interpretation of any of the above statements doesn't neccesarily mean that was how it was, but something to keep in mind.

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Old 11-03-2011, 04:59 PM   #91
kewms
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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If you floundered, whack. If you complained bigger wack. If you tapped out through exhaustion whack. His rule was 'you've had enough when I say you have'

Strange as it may seem we liked it and it took us to getting through barriers we were sure we couldn't.
I'm not going to say your teacher was abusive. I wasn't there. But I will say that this precise attitude is how situations that are abusive continue: the survivors view the experience as strengthening and/or empowering. "That which doesn't kill us, makes us stronger."

Katherine
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Old 11-03-2011, 07:17 PM   #92
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
I think that is a bit vague... I mean, how many times did he try to help him correct his ukemi? If that doesn't sink in, occassionally, showing them why taking ukemi that way is wrong is helpful. My instructor commonly showed me why not to do things by lightly throwing an atemi at my face or stomach. Plus, if this reaction was natural for the sensei.... then it can be argued that his mind wasn't taken at all and that he remained in the moment. If it was planned, vicious and done with malice.... then that is a different story. Your interpretation of any of the above statements doesn't neccesarily mean that was how it was, but something to keep in mind.
The uchi-deshi left an opening, Miyamoto took the opening. No pause, no hesitation, no malice. The standard for the deshi (who will be Hombu teachers some day) is much higher than for the rest of us (I made a mistake in my ukemi later that same class and he just corrected me verbally and by pointing to where I lost the connection). The deshi take four to five classes a day, six days a week, and they work out among themselves during the breaks. Miyamoto did the natural thing, the quickest correction to someone who is supposed to paying very close attention to him.
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Old 11-03-2011, 07:26 PM   #93
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

As tori, I am always concerned about how uke is doing—if he is moving late, behind the technique, or ahead of the technique, or just on his own without reference to my movement. It's our continuing responsiveness to each other that makes what we doing waza, not just kata (to use a distinction that Endo likes to make). It's this continuing connection that makes it aikido. As tori, I adjust to what I am given and try not to correct ukemi unless a safety issue is involved. In that same class of Miyamoto I referred to above, he also took pains not to correct an uke when he was doing jiyuwaza in front of the entire class with non-deshi; he would work with whatever he is given. (The deshi are his responsibility and their mistakes reflect on him.) His waza then came out of the moment. He once did a technique with a partner at least 14 inches taller; he made a slight miscalculation on the distance which in turn made the technique lift him slightly off his center. He laughed and said to the class: "Too big."
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Old 11-03-2011, 08:31 PM   #94
graham christian
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I'm not going to say your teacher was abusive. I wasn't there. But I will say that this precise attitude is how situations that are abusive continue: the survivors view the experience as strengthening and/or empowering. "That which doesn't kill us, makes us stronger."

Katherine
That,s your view. I would say that's a complete misreading. The most valid thing you say is that you were not there.

After that point maybe you should either enquire more or or admit all else is assumption, probably way off track.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-03-2011, 09:09 PM   #95
Anthony Loeppert
Dojo: Aikido of Del Mar
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
After that point maybe you should either enquire more or or admit all else is assumption, probably way off track.

Regards.G.
If only you practice what you preach.

Stockholm syndrome?
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Old 11-03-2011, 09:12 PM   #96
Joe McParland
 
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
So when Tsuruzo Miyamoto 7th dan corrects an uchi deshi of Hombu Dojo for a mistake in his ukemi with a swift punch to the midsection (something I saw firsthand), whose mind has been taken? Who has been disrupted?
Seven years bad luck.

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Old 11-03-2011, 09:44 PM   #97
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
If only you practice what you preach.

Stockholm syndrome?
Nice sermon.
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Old 11-03-2011, 10:10 PM   #98
Anthony Loeppert
Dojo: Aikido of Del Mar
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Nice sermon.
Amen brother!
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Old 11-05-2011, 07:47 AM   #99
Mary Eastland
 
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Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Aikido can't really have a reputation. Anyone who sits around disparaging it probably needs to get busy doing something else.

Learning how to be a good uke is not easy. It really is a dedicated practice. Listen to your instructor and really try to put into motion the ideas your instructor is talking about. Maybe you will learn some things about yourself.

I was taught Aikido is not about fighting...I have to let go of what I think I know all the time. Then I can really learn.

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 11-05-2011 at 07:56 AM.

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Old 09-23-2012, 04:06 PM   #100
SteveTrinkle
Dojo: Aikido Kenkyukai International
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

http://www.wioverly co,pliant uke :this is how it begins:http://www.wimp.com/dogtrampoline/

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