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Old 10-31-2011, 12:02 PM   #51
Walter Martindale
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
On those rare occasions when someone hasn't respected my tap, my first instinct has been to get off the ground as fast as I can (once they let go) and punch them in the face. I haven't actually done it, but is that really the kind of energy you want in someone who's going to be torquing on *your* arm in a few minutes?

I'm lending you my body for your practice. As with any borrowed property, treating it as if it were your own is the *minimum* standard for behavior.

Katherine
See. I tell a story about something that happened about 10 years ago and look what happens.

On those rare occasions I've been teaching, or when I talk with people about safety in the dojo, I remind people that we take turns and if someone gets out of line and over-torques a pin, or continues to stretch after the submission, guess what - the other person gets a turn, too... If nothing else, that's kept things civilized. I frequently ask to be stretched gently after a "first tap" - as in - please hold it there for a moment, I'll push against it for a few seconds and then can you apply a little more stretch - and then I'll tap again, expecting to be let go. That, however, happens after we've talked about getting a bit more stretching....
W
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:19 PM   #52
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
See. I tell a story about something that happened about 10 years ago and look what happens.

On those rare occasions I've been teaching, or when I talk with people about safety in the dojo, I remind people that we take turns and if someone gets out of line and over-torques a pin, or continues to stretch after the submission, guess what - the other person gets a turn, too... If nothing else, that's kept things civilized. I frequently ask to be stretched gently after a "first tap" - as in - please hold it there for a moment, I'll push against it for a few seconds and then can you apply a little more stretch - and then I'll tap again, expecting to be let go. That, however, happens after we've talked about getting a bit more stretching....
W
I agree there is some flexibility here. I always let up on the pin when people tap, but if I don't think they should have tapped I'll ask them if it hurt. I always said tap before it hurts, but bring it as close to that point as possible.

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Old 10-31-2011, 01:29 PM   #53
Janet Rosen
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Well, this is OT, but since you ask....
Hmm, guess we're done... I suppose I'll leave, too. In the truck, he wrote "Bears on job site" at the bottom of the page, we dropped the gear at the trailer, and went to the pub for the rest of the afternoon.
Smart workers

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Old 11-01-2011, 02:31 AM   #54
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
You know I *think* in principle we are agreeing....but what I suggest is that they RELAX into the pin in order to accept it and get the stretch. This also starts wiring the brain/body to stay relaxed under pressure whether uke or nage.
Agreed. Exactly how I look at it :-)

@Walter
Nice story. How many people can write that in their daily notes: bears on job site? The worst I encounter is coffee spill on my desk, I suppose......

Last edited by Tim Ruijs : 11-01-2011 at 02:35 AM.

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* If you don't decide anything, you die.
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Old 11-01-2011, 05:28 AM   #55
Walter Martindale
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Agreed. Exactly how I look at it :-)

@Walter
Nice story. How many people can write that in their daily notes: bears on job site? The worst I encounter is coffee spill on my desk, I suppose......
Now, in my work, I have to wear a hat (geese and gulls fly over). I get to watch baby osprey learn to fly and hunt in spring time, and I get to help young folks learn how to balance on a 30 cm x 8 m racing shell.

and try to not spill coffee in the coaching launch...
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Old 11-01-2011, 12:53 PM   #56
graham christian
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Graham
I understand what you are saying. I would not dare to suggest to tighten the hold until aite taps...because what if aite does not tap....always with feel and awareness. But I think it is not really important why aite taps out (also see katherine's example), only that you release when he/she does.
Well I disagree here. It is very important to be aware of why uke is tapping out and that's basically my main point. If you're not aware of why then you prohibit your own learning.

As I've said earlier you get ukes tapping out because of what they think is about to happen, usually based on past 'bad' experiences. That's not the time to let go.

Are we teaching people to recognise reality here or are we teaching them to fear?

It all sounds good that you must let go no matter what but on inspection I find it's not always the case.

Now before you think I am mentioning a very rare occurrence I assure you I am not. The number of times I have come across people tapping out for what they assume is about to happen and the number of times I have come across people throwing themselves into perfect, artistic, breakfalls for what they assume is about to happen is numerous.

Fear of what might be causes this including avoidance of possible pain. Aikido in my mind should be teaching how to face, harmonize with, be in present time. Thus I am not led by false tap outs.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-01-2011, 01:14 PM   #57
Janet Rosen
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Fear of what might be causes this including avoidance of possible pain. Aikido in my mind should be teaching how to face, harmonize with, be in present time. Thus I am not led by false tap outs.

Regards.G.
I have very flexible shoulders and can often accept a nice long pin as a welcomed stretch. However sometimes the person is unwittingly holding my hand, albeit lightly, in such a way that my very arthritic thumb, which is having an exacerbation, is in complete agony.
I asking the person about their experience of what happened after the fact and coming to an agreement about slowly working through their comfort zone. But it is incredibly presumptious to think you can read what, how, why and how a person is tapping and overrule their judgement.

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-01-2011, 01:29 PM   #58
graham christian
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I have very flexible shoulders and can often accept a nice long pin as a welcomed stretch. However sometimes the person is unwittingly holding my hand, albeit lightly, in such a way that my very arthritic thumb, which is having an exacerbation, is in complete agony.
I asking the person about their experience of what happened after the fact and coming to an agreement about slowly working through their comfort zone. But it is incredibly presumptious to think you can read what, how, why and how a person is tapping and overrule their judgement.
Presumptuous? No. To train yourself and take responsibility for being aware of is part of Aikido. This means being aware at all times of what you are doing precisely and in total control so you know if what you are doing will cause pain or not. You know if the reaction fits the action. That's the level of awareness to reach for.

Secondly, by teaching the uke not to assume anything and training them to focus on what is actually happening then you are teaching them that they have a responsibility too. Both sides have that responsibility.

I would expect an uke with any responsibility to inform me of any unusual circumstances pertinent to the training ie: arthritic thumb.

Anyway, rest assured that if it was me I would be able to differentiate between real unexplained pain and drama.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-01-2011, 03:26 PM   #59
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Note to self: avoid Graham's dojo.

The level of trust you're asking for must be earned, and should never be assumed.

Katherine
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Old 11-01-2011, 04:03 PM   #60
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Note to self: avoid Graham's dojo.

The level of trust you're asking for must be earned, and should never be assumed.

Katherine
Yep.

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Old 11-01-2011, 05:56 PM   #61
graham christian
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Note to self: avoid Graham's dojo.

The level of trust you're asking for must be earned, and should never be assumed.

Katherine
Mmmm. Another popular saying used by those who have lost there own faith and thus part of themselves.

To personalize shows me only your lack of self esteem and confidence.

G.
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Old 11-01-2011, 06:22 PM   #62
Richard Stevens
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Although I'm not too active on the forum, I've read through enough threads to be surprised that your head manages to not completely exceed the server's bandwidth limits. You are such an amazing and enlightened human being. If I could only reach such heights of false humility. I've never found it necessary to add someone to my ignore list, until now...
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Old 11-01-2011, 06:35 PM   #63
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I have very flexible shoulders and can often accept a nice long pin as a welcomed stretch. However sometimes the person is unwittingly holding my hand, albeit lightly, in such a way that my very arthritic thumb, which is having an exacerbation, is in complete agony.
I asking the person about their experience of what happened after the fact and coming to an agreement about slowly working through their comfort zone. But it is incredibly presumptious to think you can read what, how, why and how a person is tapping and overrule their judgement.
I completely agree. I have tapped out for numerous reasons including cramp in my foot, my hair getting caught, a toe getting caught in the hakama, an inexperienced tori giving me a 'chinese burn' when trying to apply the pin, the torn tendon in my left hand being at an odd angle, pressure on the bone that I broke in my right hand last year etc. etc. etc. There is no way that tori can be completely aware of everything that is going on. Uke needs to inform them by tapping, and tori needs to respect that.
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Old 11-01-2011, 07:10 PM   #64
graham christian
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
I completely agree. I have tapped out for numerous reasons including cramp in my foot, my hair getting caught, a toe getting caught in the hakama, an inexperienced tori giving me a 'chinese burn' when trying to apply the pin, the torn tendon in my left hand being at an odd angle, pressure on the bone that I broke in my right hand last year etc. etc. etc. There is no way that tori can be completely aware of everything that is going on. Uke needs to inform them by tapping, and tori needs to respect that.
Oh dear. Personal experiences to back up a point of view. I cannot disagree with those instances Robin but I'm afraid you either choose to ignore what I wrote or are unaware of it.

The point I made was about when a person is tapping out through fear of what may happen. Some people do this and then turn it into a way of getting out of, a neat trick.

If you or whoever believe it is not possible to recognise this then you never will.

Nowhere did I say that when an uke suddenly shouts or taps unforseen discomfort that you should carry on regardless.

I also said that uke is responsible for informing of any physical concerns beforehand.

I notice those coming on against what I said are giving personal experience as their reasoning. I suggest they take each experience and find when they were at fault and when the other was at fault. As I said 'bad training' is at fault but alas most call that normal.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-01-2011, 07:27 PM   #65
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Graham,

I don't think anyone here has a problem with your statement that uke shouldn't tap out of anticipation of what might happen. That is poor training practice, and among other things it prevents tori from practicing effectively.

I think what Janet and Katherine have taken issue with is that tori is expected to know the difference between a jammed toe and anticipation. It is easy to assume one when it is really the other, and as such a tap should always be respected.

IMHO, if you are having problems with someone anticipating, have a quiet word to them and obtain their consent to slowly apply the lock to a point beyond that which they find comfortable and progress your training from there.
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Old 11-01-2011, 07:41 PM   #66
graham christian
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
Graham,

I don't think anyone here has a problem with your statement that uke shouldn't tap out of anticipation of what might happen. That is poor training practice, and among other things it prevents tori from practicing effectively.

I think what Janet and Katherine have taken issue with is that tori is expected to know the difference between a jammed toe and anticipation. It is easy to assume one when it is really the other, and as such a tap should always be respected.

IMHO, if you are having problems with someone anticipating, have a quiet word to them and obtain their consent to slowly apply the lock to a point beyond that which they find comfortable and progress your training from there.
Robin. I never mentioned jammed toes or anything like that but merely the point you say no one had issues with.

It no doubt can be difficult to notice the difference between that and a real situation but that doesn't mean you can't and also that you can get very good at it. In my view a teacher should be very, very good at it.

I have no problem with it myself but see many who do.

A phenomena I would say many teachers know about and know the difference.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-01-2011, 07:56 PM   #67
kewms
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Mmmm. Another popular saying used by those who have lost there own faith and thus part of themselves.

To personalize shows me only your lack of self esteem and confidence.

G.
*shrug* I have enough self-esteem and confidence to value intact shoulders more than some stranger on the internet's opinion of my training.

And that's really my point in this whole sub-thread, too. They are MY shoulders. I simply DO NOT CARE what you or anyone else thinks they "should" be able to tolerate. I'm the one who is attached to them and will have to live with the consequences of an error, whether my own or nage's. So I will tap when I think it's appropriate, and I will avoid practice partners who don't respect that.

Again, if you think I'm tapping too soon, it's your job to convince me that you can be trusted with MY shoulders. How to convince me? Well, you could start by letting go when I tell you to. If you can't be trusted to do that, you certainly can't be trusted to help me stretch my limits.

Katherine
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Old 11-01-2011, 08:25 PM   #68
graham christian
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
*shrug* I have enough self-esteem and confidence to value intact shoulders more than some stranger on the internet's opinion of my training.

And that's really my point in this whole sub-thread, too. They are MY shoulders. I simply DO NOT CARE what you or anyone else thinks they "should" be able to tolerate. I'm the one who is attached to them and will have to live with the consequences of an error, whether my own or nage's. So I will tap when I think it's appropriate, and I will avoid practice partners who don't respect that.

Again, if you think I'm tapping too soon, it's your job to convince me that you can be trusted with MY shoulders. How to convince me? Well, you could start by letting go when I tell you to. If you can't be trusted to do that, you certainly can't be trusted to help me stretch my limits.

Katherine
You make a point but nothing to do with what I said. I never mentioned going past any point of tolerance.

In a dojo it is, or should be, a place of inherent trust in each other otherwise in my opinion it's not a good dojo. Therefore trust should be given as soon as you step on the mat.

When someone betrays that trust then you enter correction time and reprimand time.

So my point is that you should always give your trust not wait for it to be earned.

Having said that I understand where you are coming from so don't assume by what I say it means anything else.

Earning trust in the sense you are using it is also valid. Thus both are true. Degrees of is probably the point at hand.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-01-2011, 10:10 PM   #69
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
You make a point but nothing to do with what I said. I never mentioned going past any point of tolerance.
Sure you did. You mentioned going past the point at which your partner taps out.

Katherine
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Old 11-01-2011, 10:19 PM   #70
kewms
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
In a dojo it is, or should be, a place of inherent trust in each other otherwise in my opinion it's not a good dojo. Therefore trust should be given as soon as you step on the mat.
There are beginners. There are out of town visitors. There are new students with unknown experience elsewhere. There are other mats, at other dojos.

Yes, certainly I have a great deal of trust in my instructor and the other students at my dojo. Otherwise I wouldn't train there. But blindly extending that level of trust to strangers? No. And even with the dojo, there are degrees of trust: I know them well enough to know the difference between the ultrasensitive yudansha and the junior white belt who doesn't know his own strength.

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 11-01-2011 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 11-02-2011, 02:02 AM   #71
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Graham

Too bad I could not participate in this discussion earlier. I see your point and I think we actually do agree.
In the situation you describe where aite taps out early and you feel it is too early, I would hold just where aite tapped and ask to relax and see if he/she can stretch a bit further. Sometimes it already hurts, sometimes you notice aite relaxes even more and indeed can stretch more. Main point is when aite taps, you at least stop. This is a case of trust, the base on which Aikido is built.

So, in principle it does no matter why aite taps out, but when you are more advanced you can judge the call aite made and perhaps help him/her face fear/stretch. But never continue after aite taps out, it is not your call.

The level of trust you're asking for must be earned, and should never be assumed. Could not agree more Katherine!

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
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Old 11-02-2011, 06:25 AM   #72
graham christian
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Graham

Too bad I could not participate in this discussion earlier. I see your point and I think we actually do agree.
In the situation you describe where aite taps out early and you feel it is too early, I would hold just where aite tapped and ask to relax and see if he/she can stretch a bit further. Sometimes it already hurts, sometimes you notice aite relaxes even more and indeed can stretch more. Main point is when aite taps, you at least stop. This is a case of trust, the base on which Aikido is built.

So, in principle it does no matter why aite taps out, but when you are more advanced you can judge the call aite made and perhaps help him/her face fear/stretch. But never continue after aite taps out, it is not your call.

The level of trust you're asking for must be earned, and should never be assumed. Could not agree more Katherine!
Hi Tim.
Can we please differentiate here. Let's look at it as two sides of a coin. On one side we have the obeyance of the rule no matter what. You will find I have agreed with that already earlier in the thread.

On the other side of the coin we have the times uke is tapping out for the reasons I describe. A fear of something which isn't actually happening.

Hidden injuries etc. fit in with side one. As I agree with side one then there is no argument.

Side two is what I point out and ask for inspection of. Yourself and Robin seem to recognise what I am saying.

When I say not to follow the rule in these circumstances that doesn't equal carry on past the point of the person tapping out. It means go no further but don't let go. If anything relax the pressure whilst still holding. This gives the person time to realize nothing has happened yet and the cause of the imagined danger is theirself. Thus they learn. Now you will have really earned their trust.

When they know you know the difference then the trust grows. They know they are in safe hands.

I have seen quite a few characters over the years who suffer from this phenomenon and usually sit back and watch for a while. Let's take nikkyo. A person does nikkyo and this fellow goes down hard or awkwardly with a whelp and nage immediately lets go. The uke complains and blames and nage feels bad and apologetic. Now this fellow moves onto the next partner and a version of what happened before reoccurs. I watch him work his way through the class or find an excuse to stop. Meanwhile there's two or three confused students all now scared to do nikkyo. It's quite amusing.

I now call him and go to apply nikkyo. He's already on the way down and pulling away both. Tapping his leg. My hold is relaxed, my attitude is calm and reassuring, my smile is warm. I point out nothing has happened yet and he relaxes. This opens the door to show him what a good nikkyo is and to show him how to relax in the face of it and then onto how to relax in the face of a not so good one also.

Those watching learn what was happening. This fellow now is busy telling me about his past times and what was done to him. Everyone learns and everyones happy doing so.

Trust is earned.

In these circumstances hands on is the solution, not a quiet word for he is not afraid of quiet words. He is actually looking for someone who can correct him in a good way to a good result and improved performance.

I will qualify this with one thing. If you are not able to differentiate or have any doubt whatsoever then let go. Call an experienced person or teacher to check what's happening.

However, in these types of situations if it is not handled but merely given into all the time then trust will never be earned and you won't see that student again. Hands on, no letting go, good solution.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-02-2011, 07:43 AM   #73
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Well I disagree here. It is very important to be aware of why uke is tapping out and that's basically my main point. If you're not aware of why then you prohibit your own learning.

As I've said earlier you get ukes tapping out because of what they think is about to happen, usually based on past 'bad' experiences. That's not the time to let go.

Are we teaching people to recognise reality here or are we teaching them to fear?

It all sounds good that you must let go no matter what but on inspection I find it's not always the case.

Now before you think I am mentioning a very rare occurrence I assure you I am not. The number of times I have come across people tapping out for what they assume is about to happen and the number of times I have come across people throwing themselves into perfect, artistic, breakfalls for what they assume is about to happen is numerous.

Fear of what might be causes this including avoidance of possible pain. Aikido in my mind should be teaching how to face, harmonize with, be in present time. Thus I am not led by false tap outs.

Regards.G.
My head is spinning. I kept hoping to read a post that clarified what Graham is saying, but he kept digging the hole... No means yes? At best, you are vaguely referring to a relationship in which you are empowered to help uke push his limits, at worst you have just described an assault.

1. Uke has the right to tap out whenever he wants, for whatever reason he sees fit. Nage has the obligation to respect and obey that request.
2. Partners with trusting relationships may empower each other to increase the environmental stress (and danger) to each other's person.
3. It is NEVER the role of the sensei to empower himself to "rectify" deficiencies in a student without obtaining consent from that student.
4. Trust is earned by establishing safe and respectful training environments, not because you are sensei.

I think you are trying to point out that in training we are supposed to create scenarios that push our boundaries. Personally, this is what I believe. Yes, eventually we want our students to understand the proper timing of ukemi. Good uke need to learn to hang in until nage no longer presents suki. But the notion that nage may do this in the interest of uke and not necessarily with his consent is disturbing, especially coming from a teacher.

You have now had several responsive posts that did not address some of the posters comments and I cannot help but to respond as well. You need to clarify your statements and consolidate your message.

"Fear does not exist in this dojo, does it? No, sensei! Pain does not exist in this dojo, does it? No, sensei!"
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:52 AM   #74
Basia Halliop
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Can we please differentiate here. Let's look at it as two sides of a coin. On one side we have the obeyance of the rule no matter what. You will find I have agreed with that already earlier in the thread.
No, you can't have it both ways, because you're directly contradicting yourself. You can't say it's their right to decide what you're allowed to do to THEIR body, then say 'unless it's for a bad reason'. It's just not up to you. Sorry. Your opinion, no matter how correct and brilliant and insightful, just doesn't MATTER.

It's not like it's even that hard to convince someone to go really slowly and show them you'll keep going really slowly and let them discover for themselves that it doesn't hurt as soon as they thought it would. I've done that more than once, and I'm not even particularly advanced, nor do I claim to have your exceptional judgment or ability to read the situation. If you go slowly and smoothly, you don't even HAVE to be a genius or know your partner better than they know themselves.
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:14 AM   #75
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
My head is spinning. I kept hoping to read a post that clarified what Graham is saying, but he kept digging the hole... No means yes? At best, you are vaguely referring to a relationship in which you are empowered to help uke push his limits, at worst you have just described an assault.

1. Uke has the right to tap out whenever he wants, for whatever reason he sees fit. Nage has the obligation to respect and obey that request.
2. Partners with trusting relationships may empower each other to increase the environmental stress (and danger) to each other's person.
3. It is NEVER the role of the sensei to empower himself to "rectify" deficiencies in a student without obtaining consent from that student.
4. Trust is earned by establishing safe and respectful training environments, not because you are sensei.

I think you are trying to point out that in training we are supposed to create scenarios that push our boundaries. Personally, this is what I believe. Yes, eventually we want our students to understand the proper timing of ukemi. Good uke need to learn to hang in until nage no longer presents suki. But the notion that nage may do this in the interest of uke and not necessarily with his consent is disturbing, especially coming from a teacher.

You have now had several responsive posts that did not address some of the posters comments and I cannot help but to respond as well. You need to clarify your statements and consolidate your message.

"Fear does not exist in this dojo, does it? No, sensei! Pain does not exist in this dojo, does it? No, sensei!"
Jon. I've explained as best I can. When expanding on the point for clarification then comments such as digging a whole don't make sense. So, not knowing why you see what you do in what I've written I'll attempt to clarify using your points.

Point 2, agreed.
Point 4, Not agreed. Reread what I said and you'll see my view ie: Trust is increased through good capable handling.
Point 3. Not agreed. Students come to be taught well and thus the Sensei is already empowered to correct and improve otherwise why is the student or the sensei there?
Point1. If you don't understand through what I said then I have no other way of putting it.

Where you get trust is earned.............not because you are Sensei from I don't know.

Where you get thoughts of pushing limits or assault from beggars belief.

A simple fact of being able to differentiate seems to freak a lot of you out. I sit here in amazement wondering why?

As you and others here are always shouting about keeping it real then I feel sorry for you if you had to use a control technique for real. In real life the person will scream blue murder in order for you to let go 90% of the time NOT because it hurts but because they want to knock your block off.

Another misunderstanding here I think is most who are unaware of what I'm talking about or against it seem to me to be talking purely about pins. I am not.

Pins come at the end of a move and when addressing only pins then what they say fits, I put them on side one of the coin also.

The situations I described had nothing to do with pins, in fact Nikkyo was the named technique I used for explanation.

While I'm at it let's get more real shall we? An example of tapping out in real life. You're helping an old lady or man up from a chair or a wheelchair. They put their hand out and asked you to help them up. Half way up they 'yelp' (equivalent to tapping out) Do you let go? No, you immediately move to make them comfortable and ask what's wrong.

Blindly following rules is no excuse. It makes you more blind.

Regards.G.
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