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Old 10-28-2011, 08:06 AM   #26
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

@Walter
Even to allow tori to continue with a wrongly executed technique might be dangerous. In that situation be even more aware of your control (Budo!). It is often in these situations where 'accidents' happen....

@Don, agreed. totally.

I stress this in class: the goal in Aikido is not about throwing or hurting someone. When you want to hurt someone go out and practise aikijujutsu or some other external martial art.
It is tempting when aite taps out 'early' to simply continue the hold to make your point that you think his/her limit has not yet been reached. But is is soo wrong! It is a reflection of your mindset when this happens.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 10-28-2011, 08:12 AM   #27
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Being overly complaisant as Uke

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
In my opinion, not respecting the tap is the single most irresponsible and disrespectful thing someone can do on the mat.
Totally agree.

And when done as a "punishmnent" in kata demonstration is even worse.

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Old 10-28-2011, 08:31 AM   #28
Richard Stevens
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
I stress this in class: the goal in Aikido is not about throwing or hurting someone. When you want to hurt someone go out and practise aikijujutsu or some other external martial art.
I didn't realize that Aikijujutsu was about hurting people. Considering the "aiki" included in the name one might expect it to involve some "internal" practice as well...
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Old 10-28-2011, 11:39 AM   #29
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
@Walter
Even to allow tori to continue with a wrongly executed technique might be dangerous. In that situation be even more aware of your control (Budo!). It is often in these situations where 'accidents' happen....

@Don, agreed. totally.

I stress this in class: the goal in Aikido is not about throwing or hurting someone. When you want to hurt someone go out and practise aikijujutsu or some other external martial art.
It is tempting when aite taps out 'early' to simply continue the hold to make your point that you think his/her limit has not yet been reached. But is is soo wrong! It is a reflection of your mindset when this happens.
I think it holds true in any martial art. If I was in bjj class and my fellow students or coach decided I was tapping out too soon my a shoulder attack or a choke and held it longer I'd be just as angry (probably even more so due to the nature of the training). Respect and gratitude to your partner for allowing you to work with them is a must in any martial art. It's the only way we can both grow together. (And the only way you can keep students and training partners)

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-28-2011, 12:07 PM   #30
graham christian
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
@Walter
Even to allow tori to continue with a wrongly executed technique might be dangerous. In that situation be even more aware of your control (Budo!). It is often in these situations where 'accidents' happen....

@Don, agreed. totally.

I stress this in class: the goal in Aikido is not about throwing or hurting someone. When you want to hurt someone go out and practise aikijujutsu or some other external martial art.
It is tempting when aite taps out 'early' to simply continue the hold to make your point that you think his/her limit has not yet been reached. But is is soo wrong! It is a reflection of your mindset when this happens.
Tim, I see tapping out as a set in stone rule also but ask you this: when should a person tap out in your view? Therefore what is tapping out?

Regards.G.
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Old 10-28-2011, 12:15 PM   #31
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Tim, I see tapping out as a set in stone rule also but ask you this: when should a person tap out in your view? Therefore what is tapping out?

Regards.G.
Here's my take on it.

You tap out to acknowledge your inability to deal with the technique. You don't need to feel pain to tap out. When I first started judo and bjj I wouldn't tap until I felt pain or was choking badly. I'd go home with sore arms and sore throats.

Now I understand better that tapping is about admitting helplessness. I can tap the moment I know I'm not escaping. In terms of bjj/judo training. I'll tap when the technique is locked in and my attempts at escape have failed. In kata terms I'll tap when the technique is correctly applied and the only point in continuing is to cause pain/injury.

Being able to 'take' it has no bearing on when to tap. Pushing limits in pain really doesn't have any purpose in knowing when to tap.

The number one rule is "protect yourself at all times". It is your job to know your limits and to express them. It is your partner's job to respect those limits. When you feel in danger, or helpless, or lost, it is the time to tap. Only that will prevent injury.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-28-2011, 12:28 PM   #32
graham christian
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Here's my take on it.

You tap out to acknowledge your inability to deal with the technique. You don't need to feel pain to tap out. When I first started judo and bjj I wouldn't tap until I felt pain or was choking badly. I'd go home with sore arms and sore throats.

Now I understand better that tapping is about admitting helplessness. I can tap the moment I know I'm not escaping. In terms of bjj/judo training. I'll tap when the technique is locked in and my attempts at escape have failed. In kata terms I'll tap when the technique is correctly applied and the only point in continuing is to cause pain/injury.

Being able to 'take' it has no bearing on when to tap. Pushing limits in pain really doesn't have any purpose in knowing when to tap.

The number one rule is "protect yourself at all times". It is your job to know your limits and to express them. It is your partner's job to respect those limits. When you feel in danger, or helpless, or lost, it is the time to tap. Only that will prevent injury.
Hi Don.
I totally agree with this view and you put it very well.

I would add that sometimes I have come across someone who is tapping out at the least opportunity. I found in every case it was because they had been used to 'bad' ways and thus were expecting what wasn't actually there. It's quite amusing to see really and then to clear with the person that doesn't happen here.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-28-2011, 12:45 PM   #33
Janet Rosen
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Re: Being overly complaisant as Uke

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
In my opinion, not respecting the tap is the single most irresponsible and disrespectful thing someone can do on the mat.
Yes, I would put it very high on my list.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-28-2011, 12:50 PM   #34
Janet Rosen
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Tim, I see tapping out as a set in stone rule also but ask you this: when should a person tap out in your view? Therefore what is tapping out?

Regards.G.
Two situations:
1. You have me effectively pinned so we are done (for a newbie, if he has done everything as correctly as he can, whether or not I can actually get up from it; otherwise, the pin is applied in such a way that I have no desire to try to get out of it)
2. You are actively hurting me or are about to injure me.

Since nage has no way to know which it is unless I'm also yelling OUCH OUCH LEGGO! it behooves nage to release right away, even if we are in the middle of technique and nowhere near the final pin.

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-28-2011, 12:51 PM   #35
Janet Rosen
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

You've expressed it better than I did...

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Here's my take on it.

You tap out to acknowledge your inability to deal with the technique. You don't need to feel pain to tap out. When I first started judo and bjj I wouldn't tap until I felt pain or was choking badly. I'd go home with sore arms and sore throats.

Now I understand better that tapping is about admitting helplessness. I can tap the moment I know I'm not escaping. In terms of bjj/judo training. I'll tap when the technique is locked in and my attempts at escape have failed. In kata terms I'll tap when the technique is correctly applied and the only point in continuing is to cause pain/injury.

Being able to 'take' it has no bearing on when to tap. Pushing limits in pain really doesn't have any purpose in knowing when to tap.

The number one rule is "protect yourself at all times". It is your job to know your limits and to express them. It is your partner's job to respect those limits. When you feel in danger, or helpless, or lost, it is the time to tap. Only that will prevent injury.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-28-2011, 04:48 PM   #36
kewms
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
The number one rule is "protect yourself at all times". It is your job to know your limits and to express them. It is your partner's job to respect those limits. When you feel in danger, or helpless, or lost, it is the time to tap. Only that will prevent injury.
This. I'm ultimately responsible for my body, and I'm the one who'll have to live with an injury. If I'm having an off day or am sore for some reason and tap "early," that is my problem, not my partner's. If I'm worried about my partner's control and tap early, it's his job to become trustworthy, not to tell me I'm "wrong."

I generally encourage beginners to tap sooner rather than later. Their partner may or may not "really" have them, but their first job is to protect themselves.

If I were to catch anyone in one of my classes ignoring a tap, I'd kick them off the mat. If they did it twice, I'd raise the question of whether they should be asked to leave the dojo.

Katherine
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Old 10-28-2011, 09:58 PM   #37
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

What you are speaking off is something that I believe should be slowly worked up to but definitely practiced at the yudansha levels. Too many times I have seen senior students of dan grades who cannot execute a technique with just minimal resistance that really came from the fact that their entry was poor and they didn't take uke's balance. On the flip side, if the entry is done well, some uke's tend to over react and not try to recover.

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Old 10-29-2011, 06:30 AM   #38
Walter Martindale
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
@Walter
Even to allow tori to continue with a wrongly executed technique might be dangerous. In that situation be even more aware of your control (Budo!). It is often in these situations where 'accidents' happen....
It ALL depends on the situation. When I (after 18 years of Aikido and 8 years of Judo) practice with a person in his or her first month or so of practice, I let them do the movement even if they're not perfect, but they have to be doing something that resembles the movement principles being worked on at the time. I don't let them do anything that's going to hurt me - or them.

After a few 'trials,' I'll start making it harder for them to do it 'wrong' and quietly suggest why a different movement would be more effective in making me move in a way that I can't resist (others, younger and more flexible might be able to but I haven't been 22 for a very long time).. Or (and I prefer this) I'll ask the sensei to help my partner figure it out.

WRT the early tap out... The shihan in question ALWAYS released the pressure the moment I tapped, on the few occasions I was his uke. He'd ask why I tapped so early but I'd reached the end of my range of motion and back in the judo days I'd had a lot of injuries, making the neck/shoulders tight.

WRT the person with/on whom he was demonstrating in the situation described above, we were all wondering just how far he was going to go, but in truth uke (a sandan) was tapping out of a nikyo pin about 1/3 of the way into the pin, and about 1/3 of the distance the shihan was able to take him before reaching the "ok, now you're being stretched" point.. That, too, depends on the situation. The uke was/is being developed to be a sensei.

Anyway - the incident in question was about a decade ago and the shihan in question has gone to meet his makers - kicked the bucket - cast off his mortal coil. He was VERY traditional in his approach to martial arts - most of the time he'd show the 'modern' technique, and then occasionally show the 'in the old days we did this...' without actually finishing. i.e., when pinning ikkyo (ikkajo?). He'd say 'in the old days we did this... ' and his demonstration would include pinning the elbow, and lift his other hand up sharply, but letting go of the pinned forearm... He ALWAYS said not to hurt uke, though, because we need people to practice with.
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Old 10-31-2011, 01:59 AM   #39
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

@Richard
Really? You did not understand my point? do is study, jujutsu is about fighting...Please not this again. No, it is not about hurting people....

@Graham
Does it really matter why (or when) aite taps out? Tori must respect this decision at all times.
I think Don Magee described it pretty well. I also believe it is a process that takes a little while. At first (when you start Aikido) you might be tempted to resist the pain/hold: to see how much you can take. After a while you will start to understand what Aikido is about and this fades away. It is about protecting yourself.

@Katherine
Agreed. Nice example of why tori must respect aite's decision to tap out.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 10-31-2011, 05:45 AM   #40
graham christian
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
@Richard
Really? You did not understand my point? do is study, jujutsu is about fighting...Please not this again. No, it is not about hurting people....

@Graham
Does it really matter why (or when) aite taps out? Tori must respect this decision at all times.
I think Don Magee described it pretty well. I also believe it is a process that takes a little while. At first (when you start Aikido) you might be tempted to resist the pain/hold: to see how much you can take. After a while you will start to understand what Aikido is about and this fades away. It is about protecting yourself.

@Katherine
Agreed. Nice example of why tori must respect aite's decision to tap out.
Tim, in short I would answer yes. To be aware as to those times when obeying the tapping out rule does not apply.

Regards.G,
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Old 10-31-2011, 06:11 AM   #41
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Graham
I understand what you are saying. I would not dare to suggest to tighten the hold until aite taps...because what if aite does not tap....always with feel and awareness. But I think it is not really important why aite taps out (also see katherine's example), only that you release when he/she does.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 10-31-2011, 07:13 AM   #42
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

I believe there is a benefit to feeling the discomfort of a lock, stretch, or throw. I think it is important as uke to learn from the feeling since it is first-hand knowledge of the effect of the technique. Likewise, I believe the conditioning helps your body just as stretching, yoga, Pilates, etc. would. That said, I do not advocate damaging your body in extreme resistance.

However, aikido is based in striking and the thing that I thinks hurts us is that when we resist we do not learn the proper timing in which the interaction is taking place. If I have enough time to "resist" then my partner has enough time to hit me while I am resisting. After the stretching and learning, we need to transition our response from resisting to defense. Resisting is not defense. If my first response is to resist I will be unable to protect myself if my partner chooses to severely apply technique or if my partner chooses to strike instead of grapple.
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Old 10-31-2011, 07:59 AM   #43
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Walter
I think I understand your point. At times I show the transition to 'fighting' technique to show what is important in the study (do) variant. My technique then becomes sharp, but also release the pin just in time. My students have come to know me like this and trust me in this.
The reason I said to continue with a wrong technique might be dangerous applies to the 'technique of pinning' if you will, not the entire technique. Allthough you should be aware at all times especially with beginners. They are unpredictable.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:21 AM   #44
Walter Martindale
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Walter
I think I understand your point. At times I show the transition to 'fighting' technique to show what is important in the study (do) variant. My technique then becomes sharp, but also release the pin just in time. My students have come to know me like this and trust me in this.
The reason I said to continue with a wrong technique might be dangerous applies to the 'technique of pinning' if you will, not the entire technique. Allthough you should be aware at all times especially with beginners. They are unpredictable.
My approach to this is - yes, beginners are unpredictable partly because they don't know the proper movements, and partly because they don't realize just how little external force is required to cause a LOT of torque in a joint or a pair of forearm bones. So if I'm helping someone learn something, I get them to tap early - until they've been practicing for at least a few months, when I suggest that they provide a small amount of resistance and "take" a bit of loading in the pin so they get a bit of stretch (SLOWLY) and a bit of strengthening, because longer muscles have more contractile elements in series and are thus stronger, and providing resistance will also provide some development to thicken muscle fibres (again, adding more contractile elements)..

I don't really want to get into the "what if it's real" discussion - that's been flogged all over other forums, but every shihan I've seen, at some point has said that if it's "for real" you either give up your wallet or you defend your life with everything you have as you would against (say) a bear. I've heard said about fighting with a bear - if it's a grizzly, you play dead and maybe it will ignore you and wait a few days until you are a little bit rotten and more easy to slurp up.. If it's a black bear and you play dead, it will start eating right away, so, fight with everything you've got until you're unconscious, after which it won't matter. (I don't currently live in bear country, but in one of my university days summer jobs, I've been within 10 m of two black bear cubs and their mother - I'm SO glad the cubs didn't get curious and that they were going for the river....)
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:56 AM   #45
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

...must have been really cool to get so close to the cubs and ... scary at the same time.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 10-31-2011, 10:01 AM   #46
Janet Rosen
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
until they've been practicing for at least a few months, when I suggest that they provide a small amount of resistance and "take" a bit of loading in the pin so they get a bit of stretch (SLOWLY) and a bit of strengthening, because longer muscles have more contractile elements in series and are thus stronger, and providing resistance will also provide some development to thicken muscle fibres (again, adding more contractile elements)..
You know I *think* in principle we are agreeing....but what I suggest is that they RELAX into the pin in order to accept it and get the stretch. This also starts wiring the brain/body to stay relaxed under pressure whether uke or nage.

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-31-2011, 10:07 AM   #47
Walter Martindale
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
You know I *think* in principle we are agreeing....but what I suggest is that they RELAX into the pin in order to accept it and get the stretch. This also starts wiring the brain/body to stay relaxed under pressure whether uke or nage.
Bingo!

You say it better.
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Old 10-31-2011, 10:12 AM   #48
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

I would put stopping doing something to someone when they tell you to stop pretty high up on the list of Great Moral Rules of the Universe.

Basically, the thing that separates martial arts training from physical assault is the consensual nature of it. Take away the consent and you're assaulting someone, and whether it's 'for their own good' or not doesn't change that. Suggest to them that they should push themselves harder, tell them you don't think they're at their limit, if you're in charge of promoting them then don't promote them, heck, don't let them train if you feel strongly, whatever. But ultimately it's up to them and it doesn't matter if you're O-Sensei himself -- someone tells you to stop, you stop.
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Old 10-31-2011, 10:24 AM   #49
Walter Martindale
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Eek! Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
...must have been really cool to get so close to the cubs and ... scary at the same time.
Well, this is OT, but since you ask..

Picture: I was working for CP Rail Special Projects, surveying profile and cross-sections for volumes remaining to fill on a railway construction project. I was "Rodman" but was sitting on a rock at the side of the job waiting while "R," the instrument man (about 30 m away from me) was doing some calculations in his field book (it was the 1970s before all the computerized equipment).

I heard some rustling in the bush to my right. Looked, FROZE and started hoping like heck that cub number 1 would NOT look my way... then cub number 2 and mom came out. This was about 1/3 of the way between me and the guy on the instrument. I'm sitting not making any noise, saying to myself "PLEASE don't smell me, PLEASE don't look this way." over and over.... The cubs were really cute but their presence makes momma bear REALLY dangerous. Normally the bear will avoid human contact, but if the cubs are there they can cause a lot of damage.

The bears wandered across the construction site (a 5 mile long construction site near Revelstoke, BC) and when they were about 3/4 of the way across, or about 70 meters away, I picked up the mike on the radio and whispered "Look up" - R. looked up, I was pointing at the bears. He froze, and the instant they went over the side of the fill, I assume on their way to the river, R picked up the level, the radio, and started walking the mile or so back to the truck.

Hmm, guess we're done... I suppose I'll leave, too. In the truck, he wrote "Bears on job site" at the bottom of the page, we dropped the gear at the trailer, and went to the pub for the rest of the afternoon.

Last edited by Walter Martindale : 10-31-2011 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 10-31-2011, 10:38 AM   #50
kewms
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Re: Being overly complacent as Uke

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I would put stopping doing something to someone when they tell you to stop pretty high up on the list of Great Moral Rules of the Universe.

Basically, the thing that separates martial arts training from physical assault is the consensual nature of it. Take away the consent and you're assaulting someone, and whether it's 'for their own good' or not doesn't change that. Suggest to them that they should push themselves harder, tell them you don't think they're at their limit, if you're in charge of promoting them then don't promote them, heck, don't let them train if you feel strongly, whatever. But ultimately it's up to them and it doesn't matter if you're O-Sensei himself -- someone tells you to stop, you stop.
On those rare occasions when someone hasn't respected my tap, my first instinct has been to get off the ground as fast as I can (once they let go) and punch them in the face. I haven't actually done it, but is that really the kind of energy you want in someone who's going to be torquing on *your* arm in a few minutes?

I'm lending you my body for your practice. As with any borrowed property, treating it as if it were your own is the *minimum* standard for behavior.

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