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Old 10-26-2011, 04:18 PM   #26
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post

I don't see how political correctness has anything to do with it. We're talking about self image here.What's politically correct about not beating ones self over the head with all kinds of negative internal dialog?
I think it has to do with semantics and context. Simply saying I suck doesnt seem any less healthy than saying I'm awesome. It depends on how it's balanced with the rest of the internal dialogue.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:18 PM   #27
DH
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
When we use negative langauge we get negative results.
Just sayn"
That's simply not true.
Read all of the seminar reports and you will see that there is a genuine warmth there and growing friendships.
I am VERY grateful that I have had/have teachers that poke fun at me, have called me a zero and yes...been very warm and supportive.
In open rooms I poke fun and reduce myself and poke fun at myself ...all...the time.
And Mary..I don't look at people in a straight face and actually tell them they suck!!!
Standing holding up Joke sign...J-O-K-E!
Oh my God, are you people reaally this sensitive?
Dan
Edit:
Quote:
I have read a lot of your people say "I suck," "we all suck."
I have no people. These people are members of nothing in my name and never will be. I have no system or anything like that. I have lost track of the number of teachers I have kneeled and bowed to in open rooms who come to me. We hang out together and train together. Not one of them sees me as above them. They are extremely self aware and confident.

Last edited by DH : 10-26-2011 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:23 PM   #28
Chris Li
 
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Oh my God, are you people reaally this sensitive?
Dan
Oh absolutely! I can't count the nights that I've cried myself to sleep after a session with Dan screaming "You suck!" in my ear.

Maybe I should just give up and go work on my self-esteem .

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-26-2011, 04:31 PM   #29
DH
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Oh absolutely! I can't count the nights that I've cried myself to sleep after a session with Dan screaming "You suck!" in my ear.

Maybe I should just give up and go work on my self-esteem .

Best,

Chris
\

I have woken up with a picture of you trying stuff in the dojo...and I cry as well!!

I have this teacher who will yell out as I am going fast and focusing..."Dan!! Freeze!!
And there you are full speed weapons flying...to stopping dead........
Hours later......"Dan!! Freeze!!... cold sweat!
After a year of this I told him once.
There I was making love with my wife and in my head I hear "Dan.....
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:33 PM   #30
akiy
 
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Hi folks,

Any chance the discussion can be steered back on-topic?

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 10-26-2011, 04:40 PM   #31
DH
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Scene
Dojo full of what was to become the new aikido greats...all training and straining and most likely feeling all groovy about themselves.
Booming voice..."You all suck!!..."
oops I mean
"This is not my Aikido!"
Then he proceeds as we now know...to teach them about the IP/aiki being discussed on Aikiweb!! Using real words- that mattered.

Then again we hear
"Sensei why can't we do what you do?"
"Because you do not understand In yo ho."
With apparently no further clarifications. Oh well.
I know people who trained with him and have heard stories from others. I have never heard of him being -for the most part -all warm and fuzzy in the dojo.
Just say'n
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-26-2011 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 10-26-2011, 06:46 PM   #32
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Private Message....

[Editor: Private message removed]

This is what I mean by "your people"...this is creepy.
I DON"T want to train with Dan!
CAN YOU HEAR ME?

Last edited by akiy : 10-27-2011 at 08:39 AM.

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Old 10-26-2011, 07:00 PM   #33
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Mary,
Private messages are meant to be just that, private. Unfortunately, my good intentions have a history of going in the wrong direction, and I apologize.
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Old 10-26-2011, 08:38 PM   #34
bernardkwan
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
In Japanese: 動、静、引、弛、凝、解、分、合

I know little about Chinese, but from what I can gather on Google (and from what little I know of Tai Chi), Tai Chi uses different characters that are more technically related. It may well be that there are some close linkages.

Best,

Chris
Hi Chris,

It's been a while.

Yes I believe the Tai Chi 掤、履、擠、按、採、列、肘、靠 are more technically related in that these are applications. The 8 energies you mentioned above are interesting in that last two 分 & 合 are similar to the opening and closing of Taichi 開 and 合.

動、静 - movement and stillness - in Chinese arts movement refers to the actual techniques and stillness training usually refers to meditation or zhan zhuang (pole standing).

引 - leading - this is a common concept in Taichi - as in leading into emptiness - apologies but I think pulling is too strong a word

弛 - what you translate as loosening, this character not commonly used in Chinese martial arts but perhaps this is the Japanese way of expressing the concept of "Song" 鬆 or relaxation?

凝 - what you translate as congealing - perhaps the corrollary here is 沉 or "sinking" or being connected using whole body power - just speculating here?

解 - what you translate as melting - I disagree with the translation as this is more unravelling as unravelling a knot, I am having trouble finding an exact match but loosening may perhaps be a better translation here rather than above- perhaps this is sensitivity to escape from joint locks or in wresting. Again a guess.

As for Mark's comment that these are just purely opposites - yes and no, looking at the concepts it seems a little more complicated than that. Sometimes in classical writing the author throws a bunch of opposites for stylistic effect (such as he searched to the right and the left, to the eastern mountain and western sea, to the palaces and the homes of the people, etc.) but this seems to be a bit more than that as each concept should be "unpacked" and is important.

I have to defer to your experience and authority for the Japanese somewhat as I know for a fact that Japanese Kanji do not always have the same meaning as the Chinese Hanzi, especially for modern Japanese. But for such characters, more classical contexts the meaning is usually similar or has an older classical Chinese meaning rather than the modern Chinese meaning.

Last edited by bernardkwan : 10-26-2011 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 10-26-2011, 08:44 PM   #35
graham christian
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Scene
Dojo full of what was to become the new aikido greats...all training and straining and most likely feeling all groovy about themselves.
Booming voice..."You all suck!!..."
oops I mean
"This is not my Aikido!"
Then he proceeds as we now know...to teach them about the IP/aiki being discussed on Aikiweb!! Using real words- that mattered.

Then again we hear
"Sensei why can't we do what you do?"
"Because you do not understand In yo ho."
With apparently no further clarifications. Oh well.
I know people who trained with him and have heard stories from others. I have never heard of him being -for the most part -all warm and fuzzy in the dojo.
Just say'n
Dan
Hi Dan. For once I am in agreement with you. It's good to acknowledge where you are. It's actually a good exercise in life too. I could try to fix a car and bump straight into my lack of understanding and incompetence in that activity. To acknowledge where I am would be good. It's not negative. As a short cut I may say therefore I'm hopeless at fixing cars or car machanics.

I'm using the words as an acknowledgement rather than a put down. Thus it is, used this way, neutral. So in fact it fits in with what Ron would desire.

Back to topic I have just one question for you which doesn't need a long answer. It's on your view and indeed practice of the principles of in yo ho (I still call it yin and yang) and for example the eight forces mentioned. I see you pair them off and use them as in alignment with the basic premise of yin and yang being the theory of opposites.

Ok. Now for the shocker. I have yin and yang within my Aikido. I'm not saying anything to do with your Aiki teaching but merely this one question. Do you personally explain them as opposites?

I know this may sound like a dumb question not only to you but to many so I will take you out of any mystery by explaining why I ask.

It's because within my framework for years now I have pointed out to people that in essence 'opposites' is not true and that, gasp, horror, yin and yang in truth is the theory of complimentary forces and when they understand this they will understand yin and yang better.

Feel free to answer as you see fit.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-26-2011, 08:51 PM   #36
bernardkwan
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Hey Suckers!

can we get back to the thread please?
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Old 10-26-2011, 08:58 PM   #37
graham christian
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Bernard Kwan wrote: View Post
Hey Suckers!

can we get back to the thread please?
(Hope your not referring to me)

Ha, ha. This is on the thread. It's about the things in the translation and how it's then translated or seen by Dan.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-26-2011, 09:03 PM   #38
bernardkwan
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Yes sorry Graham - I see your topic was about In/yo
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Old 10-26-2011, 09:17 PM   #39
Chris Li
 
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Bernard Kwan wrote: View Post
Hi Chris,

It's been a while.

Yes I believe the Tai Chi 掤、履、"、按、採、列、肘、靠 are more technically related in that these are applications. The 8 energies you mentioned above are interesting in that last two 分 & 合 are similar to the opening and closing of Taichi -- and 合.
The Japanese is a more literal "division" or "separation" - the Kanji for "open" in Japanese is the same as in Chinese.

Quote:
Bernard Kwan wrote: View Post
引 - leading - this is a common concept in Taichi - as in leading into emptiness - apologies but I think pulling is too strong a word
It can also mean "draw", but maybe in light of the paired force it's more like "stretch" (that would be a very loose interpretation of the literal meaning).

Quote:
Bernard Kwan wrote: View Post
弛 - what you translate as loosening, this character not commonly used in Chinese martial arts but perhaps this is the Japanese way of expressing the concept of "Song" 鬆 or relaxation?
They can both be used for "loosen" or "relax", which would pair with the first one.

Quote:
Bernard Kwan wrote: View Post
凝 - what you translate as congealing - perhaps the corrollary here is 沉 or "sinking" or being connected using whole body power - just speculating here?
That one I don't have in Japanese - I meant "congealing" as in "stiffening" or (maybe) "fusing".

Quote:
Bernard Kwan wrote: View Post
解 - what you translate as melting - I disagree with the translation as this is more unravelling as unravelling a knot, I am having trouble finding an exact match but loosening may perhaps be a better translation here rather than above- perhaps this is sensitivity to escape from joint locks or in wresting. Again a guess.
"Unravel" is probably closer - I was thinking in terms of pairs with the above term.

Quote:
Bernard Kwan wrote: View Post

I have to defer to your experience and authority for the Japanese somewhat as I know for a fact that Japanese Kanji do not always have the same meaning as the Chinese Hanzi, especially for modern Japanese. But for such characters, more classical contexts the meaning is usually similar or has an older classical Chinese meaning rather than the modern Chinese meaning.
I haven't come across much in detail about how Ueshiba specifically interpreted each individual term, so a lot of the above are best guesses. There's probably more buried somewhere, I'm coming across more all the time.

Also, keep in mind that this is all very unpolished - I just started working up some passages that interested me for my own and my friends usage.

Aside from the technical references themselves, how would Chinese describe the basic attributes of each energy?

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-26-2011, 10:00 PM   #40
bernardkwan
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Chris - I realize they are rough and ready translations but thanks for doing them.

Please note that these are my interpretations of the terms and each of them probably need a longer description than I have written (and I have consciously steered clear of some of the IS interpretations such as using dantian,etc. )

Actually putting them in sequence there is a nice harmony to them in that in some ways the first is the basis for the second pair and the third is the basis for the fourth pair

Stillness and Movement - movement trains techniques and applications (speed, angle etc.) stillness trains the whole body integration (mind, body, fascia)

Leading and Loosening - I would pair up the leading as the energy of taking your opponent off balance, and loosening as the ability to remove tension from your body to slip out of locks and reverse techniques

Relaxation and Congealing - ability to have a relaxed body without extraneous tension and congealing is the ability to link up the body into one unit to fajin or issue force

Opening and Closing - storing and releasing the energy (related to usage of the back bow) - I know the character is for separating but I think the concept is the same as opening.

Just talking about In/yo seems too abstract for me... as In/yo is a relative concept and means different things in different situations.

Last edited by bernardkwan : 10-26-2011 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 10-27-2011, 06:53 AM   #41
Patrick Hutchinson
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Excuse me, but "creepy" (and reprehensible) is a teacher making public a private message without the permission of the sender. Unbelievable.
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:23 AM   #42
MM
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Private Message....

(PM cut)

This is what I mean by "your people"...this is creepy.
I DON"T want to train with Dan!
CAN YOU HEAR ME?
Hello,

Would you do me a small favor? I know, it's somewhat intrusive to ask. If you haven't already, would you take a step back, catch your breath, relax, find your center, and then look at your post with fresh eyes? You posted a private message onto a public thread. That isn't a nice thing to do, but we all make mistakes. I'm sure Cady is nice enough to understand that frustration levels can get very high at times and a sincere apology works wonders.

Other than that, I think your message came through loud and clear. There is a saying about walking a mile in one's shoes ... I think perhaps both sides can gain from that saying. On our end, some of us should gain an understanding that you are Happy in your Aikido. That you have a Vision of Aikido which is giving you a Life full of Wonder and Challenge.

On your end, I hope you can understand the thrill of a child getting a brand new, much wanted, toy. The child looks at it in wonder and excitement and wants to play and share the toy with other kids. So, too, does this aiki fall into our hands. It is wonder, excitement, thrills, and we are ecstatic to share the "toy". In our excitement, we sometimes forget that other people do not have the same views about "play" or even "toys" in general.

Maybe one day we'll find some common ground ...

Mark

(Please excuse the off topic post)
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:41 AM   #43
phitruong
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Bernard Kwan wrote: View Post
C
Please note that these are my interpretations of the terms and each of them probably need a longer description than I have written (and I have consciously steered clear of some of the IS interpretations such as using dantian,etc. )
.
why would you want to steer from the IS interpretations? you should just drive right through it. ran across this article (*warning, moi no do taichi*) http://www.chenstyletaichi.com/engli...eightbasic.htm and wondering if Ueshiba teachings related to that, at least to peng, lu, ji, an?

how hard is it find someone who knows Japanese, Chinese, English and IS at the same time?

*it sucks that i don't know japanese or chinese or IS for that matter*

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:44 AM   #44
DH
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Dan. For once I am in agreement with you. It's good to acknowledge where you are. It's actually a good exercise in life too. I could try to fix a car and bump straight into my lack of understanding and incompetence in that activity. To acknowledge where I am would be good. It's not negative. As a short cut I may say therefore I'm hopeless at fixing cars or car machanics.

I'm using the words as an acknowledgement rather than a put down. Thus it is, used this way, neutral. So in fact it fits in with what Ron would desire.
I have no idea what you are referring to. You agree with what?

Quote:
Back to topic I have just one question for you which doesn't need a long answer. It's on your view and indeed practice of the principles of in yo ho (I still call it yin and yang) and for example the eight forces mentioned. I see you pair them off and use them as in alignment with the basic premise of yin and yang being the theory of opposites.
Ok. Now for the shocker. I have yin and yang within my Aikido. I'm not saying anything to do with your Aiki teaching but merely this one question. Do you personally explain them as opposites?
Graham
You state you have yin and yang in your aikido. You have produced many videos. When and if, someone understands in yo ho- it is revealed in their movements and in their contact with others. It is obvious. If it is not there, the tell tale markers are all over the place and hundreds of people can see them. Really, no discussion is needed.

Quote:
I know this may sound like a dumb question not only to you but to many so I will take you out of any mystery by explaining why I ask.
It's because within my framework for years now I have pointed out to people that in essence 'opposites' is not true and that, gasp, horror, yin and yang in truth is the theory of complimentary forces and when they understand this they will understand yin and yang better.
Feel free to answer as you see fit.
Regards.G.
The world is wrong and you are right? Er...okay. You can redefine anything for Graham's use as you like. I don't quite understand why you would take a term with such an established pedagogy and twist it to mean the opposite of what the world knew it meant.

The reason the union of opposites is so profound that it lasted centuries, is that it pretty much sidelined and pushed everyone who doubted it out of the field. It was it's own truth and everyone else was forced to go home with their individual unique theories or not show up at all for any worthwhile comparisons.
Had Ueshiba adopted your model- none of us would be here. Why?
No one would have known his name or found him worth following.
Dan
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Old 10-27-2011, 08:13 AM   #45
DH
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Bernard Kwan wrote: View Post
Chris - I realize they are rough and ready translations but thanks for doing them.

Please note that these are my interpretations of the terms and each of them probably need a longer description than I have written (and I have consciously steered clear of some of the IS interpretations such as using dantian,etc. )

Actually putting them in sequence there is a nice harmony to them in that in some ways the first is the basis for the second pair and the third is the basis for the fourth pair

Stillness and Movement - movement trains techniques and applications (speed, angle etc.) stillness trains the whole body integration (mind, body, fascia)

Leading and Loosening - I would pair up the leading as the energy of taking your opponent off balance, and loosening as the ability to remove tension from your body to slip out of locks and reverse techniques

Relaxation and Congealing - ability to have a relaxed body without extraneous tension and congealing is the ability to link up the body into one unit to fajin or issue force

Opening and Closing - storing and releasing the energy (related to usage of the back bow) - I know the character is for separating but I think the concept is the same as opening.

Just talking about In/yo seems too abstract for me... as In/yo is a relative concept and means different things in different situations.
I disagree with your descriptions of Ueshiba's list
Chris wrote: Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as an active force, a quiet force, a pulling force, a loosening force, a splitting force, a combining force, a melting force and a congealing force (you can see that each "in" force has a matching "yo" force).
Your redefining without enough information. They clearly do not line up with say; the eight jins of taiji, though we can make similarities. Ueshiba has many other newly translated passages that do discuss connecting and the use of jins, but are not nearly as complete (so far) as similar Chinese writings. I do not think that these passages are exactly what people are looking to have them mean in regards to say a taiji perspective on eight jins. I could argue both sides against the middle and presume quite a bit. I'd rather wait until more of his previous supposedly unintelligble meanderings and writtings that skipped over and mistranslated are translated correctly-hopefully not by the type of sources who screwed them up in the first place- so the clarity of his research and his methods are made known.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-27-2011 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:34 AM   #46
graham christian
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have no idea what you are referring to. You agree with what?

Graham
You state you have yin and yang in your aikido. You have produced many videos. When and if, someone understands in yo ho- it is revealed in their movements and in their contact with others. It is obvious. If it is not there, the tell tale markers are all over the place and hundreds of people can see them. Really, no discussion is needed.

The world is wrong and you are right? Er...okay. You can redefine anything for Graham's use as you like. I don't quite understand why you would take a term with such an established pedagogy and twist it to mean the opposite of what the world knew it meant.

The reason the union of opposites is so profound that it lasted centuries, is that it pretty much sidelined and pushed everyone who doubted it out of the field. It was it's own truth and everyone else was forced to go home with their individual unique theories or not show up at all for any worthwhile comparisons.
Had Ueshiba adopted your model- none of us would be here. Why?
No one would have known his name or found him worth following.
Dan
No idea what I was agreeing with? Read it again or I'll give you a clue,(if you miss what I was referring to then you suck) ha,ha.

On the second point I asked for an answer, you gave one, good. Thank you.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:46 PM   #47
bernardkwan
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I disagree with your descriptions of Ueshiba's list
Chris wrote: Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as an active force, a quiet force, a pulling force, a loosening force, a splitting force, a combining force, a melting force and a congealing force (you can see that each "in" force has a matching "yo" force).
Your redefining without enough information. They clearly do not line up with say; the eight jins of taiji, though we can make similarities.
Hi Dan,

you are probably right - I would love to spend more time with Chris to look at some of the other interesting passages to make more of a case.

But I thought it was an interesting intellectual exercise if nothing else as to why he chose the specific Kanji that he did.

Bernard
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Old 10-28-2011, 09:07 AM   #48
DH
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Bernard Kwan wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,
you are probably right - I would love to spend more time with Chris to look at some of the other interesting passages to make more of a case.
But I thought it was an interesting intellectual exercise if nothing else as to why he chose the specific Kanji that he did.
Bernard
Hello Bernard
I agree we need more time but the case is pretty much nailed and moving in one direction.
In keeping with his personal training history (and the reason I nailed what he was doing and what we all should have been talking about) his focus was on creating aiki as a blending of ki in himself- in/yo ho. Then and only then, did he address connection between others.
It is aiki in me
looong before
aiki between thee and me.
I know that as a model, it turns aikido on its head, but as I have said for years; aikido-ka are really not doing Morihei Ueshiba's way of aiki, they are doing something different. No harm, no foul, but they can't make any case at all that they were. They self-admittedly don't even know what the hell he was talking about in defining his own aiki. Now others are seeing Ueshiba's own definitions, and realize as well that they stand in stark opposition to what Aikido™ is today.

Examining recent discussions
You had me pointing to dual spirals. You had me arguing with a Chinese IS taiji guy here who was saying there was no spiraling or reeling in Aikido.
The creation of some important affects that creates on contact.
Why you do not turn from or generate power from- the hips.
The reason aikido is elbow power.
And the reason that Tohei's model did not nearly cut it, as he never was moving like Ueshiba.

What is the result
Ueshiba's own words now revealing that; The mystery of aiki is revealed in dual spirals; descending on one side, rising on the other and secondarily the effect it creates within your own body...where they cross. So it turns out- Dual opposing spirals was Ueshiba's own definition for his internal movement.
This, before he goes on to state the effect that has when dealing with force.
This leads to his statements of the circle and center and how it is NOT you moving in a circle at all. That it is in fact the source of irimi/tenkan in neutralizing in duality. The great, vaunted, circle of aiki had not one thing to do with moving in a circle.

What will be the next step?
In the end -as I had stated and predicted years ago- there is an Aikido™ of Kisshomaru, and the true way of Aiki, the founders mission. Morihei Ueshiba was the model and not his son. It is his words we need to adhere to and not those of his son or later followers. It is no surprise that the aikikai banned certain practices-all centering around this work- and distanced themselves from those with power, to the point that these men pursued and taught aiki differently, outside of hombu. This continues to this very day. Nothing is more damning or revealing than seeing the growing numbers of teachers going outside of Aikido™ to learn the way of aiki and watching the Aikikai and modern adepts circling the wagons against the percieved intrusion.

In the fullness of time Kisshomaru got what he wanted; an externally athletic, blandly consistent, cookie cutter model, Aikido™- that had nothing to do with Morihei Ueshiba's power and understanding of what aiki...is. We will see and increasing number of teachers trying to conscript and redefine aiki into a generic catch all term- such as the realm of aiki -to validate and place a protective umbrella over their current understanding.
Yet the words of the founder "This is not my aikido" is still echoing down the halls of time and speaking to the vast majority of us today. And now, with clear terms that define and separate his own meaning of aiki, away from any modern attempt at a generic model.
All the best
Dan

2012
The Way of Aiki
Exploring internal strength and Aiki in the Japanese arts
Including never before translated words of Aikido's founder Morihei Ueshiba

Last edited by DH : 10-28-2011 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:41 PM   #49
Ken McGrew
Dojo: Aikido at UAB
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 202
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hello Bernard
I agree we need more time but the case is pretty much nailed and moving in one direction.
In keeping with his personal training history (and the reason I nailed what he was doing and what we all should have been talking about) his focus was on creating aiki as a blending of ki in himself- in/yo ho. Then and only then, did he address connection between others.
It is aiki in me
looong before
aiki between thee and me.
I know that as a model, it turns aikido on its head, but as I have said for years; aikido-ka are really not doing Morihei Ueshiba's way of aiki, they are doing something different. No harm, no foul, but they can't make any case at all that they were. They self-admittedly don't even know what the hell he was talking about in defining his own aiki. Now others are seeing Ueshiba's own definitions, and realize as well that they stand in stark opposition to what Aikido is today.

Examining recent discussions
You had me pointing to dual spirals. You had me arguing with a Chinese IS taiji guy here who was saying there was no spiraling or reeling in Aikido.
The creation of some important affects that creates on contact.
Why you do not turn from or generate power from- the hips.
The reason aikido is elbow power.
And the reason that Tohei's model did not nearly cut it, as he never was moving like Ueshiba.

What is the result
Ueshiba's own words now revealing that; The mystery of aiki is revealed in dual spirals; descending on one side, rising on the other and secondarily the effect it creates within your own body...where they cross. So it turns out- Dual opposing spirals was Ueshiba's own definition for his internal movement.
This, before he goes on to state the effect that has when dealing with force.
This leads to his statements of the circle and center and how it is NOT you moving in a circle at all. That it is in fact the source of irimi/tenkan in neutralizing in duality. The great, vaunted, circle of aiki had not one thing to do with moving in a circle.

What will be the next step?
In the end -as I had stated and predicted years ago- there is an Aikido of Kisshomaru, and the true way of Aiki, the founders mission. Morihei Ueshiba was the model and not his son. It is his words we need to adhere to and not those of his son or later followers. It is no surprise that the aikikai banned certain practices-all centering around this work- and distanced themselves from those with power, to the point that these men pursued and taught aiki differently, outside of hombu. This continues to this very day. Nothing is more damning or revealing than seeing the growing numbers of teachers going outside of Aikido to learn the way of aiki and watching the Aikikai and modern adepts circling the wagons against the percieved intrusion.

In the fullness of time Kisshomaru got what he wanted; an externally athletic, blandly consistent, cookie cutter model, Aikido- that had nothing to do with Morihei Ueshiba's power and understanding of what aiki...is. We will see and increasing number of teachers trying to conscript and redefine aiki into a generic catch all term- such as the realm of aiki -to validate and place a protective umbrella over their current understanding.
Yet the words of the founder "This is not my aikido" is still echoing down the halls of time and speaking to the vast majority of us today. And now, with clear terms that define and separate his own meaning of aiki, away from any modern attempt at a generic model.
All the best
Dan

2012
The Way of Aiki
Exploring internal strength and Aiki in the Japanese arts
Including never before translated words of Aikido's founder Morihei Ueshiba
This is almost incoherent writing. Maybe if I read every post you ever made I would understand what you mean, but that's a lot to ask. I get the idea that people disagreed with you about something related to Aikido and the unity of opposites among other things and that you feel vindicated by recently translated language from O'Sensei. Other than that it's very hard to follow your writing. I don't see anything in the notion of Universal spirals being manifested in Nage that is new if you've read Saotome's books. But maybe you mean something more that isn't clear.
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Old 11-07-2011, 06:17 PM   #50
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
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Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
This is almost incoherent writing. Maybe if I read every post you ever made I would understand what you mean, but that's a lot to ask.
Clearly Dan is writing for people who have been following this line of discussion, not for someone jumping in at the end. Dan's post certainly isn't incoherent to me, but then again I've read most of the posts in this thread and others relating to it.
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