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Old 10-23-2011, 02:58 AM   #26
Carsten Mllering
 
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
The difference is Ueshiba changed 'everything' after the war
...
Thank you for answering my question.

I don't see this global cange when looking at what we can know about the history of aikido.
And I don't "experience" it when practicing with my teacher who has practiced with the late Sugino Yoshio (besides other teachers).
So I don't agree with your statement. Be it sitting over my books or be it practicing on the tatami.

I myself think that the assumption of a global change after WWII just makes it easier for us, to - seemingly! - understand what Ueshiba thaught and did.

Last edited by Carsten Mllering : 10-23-2011 at 03:04 AM.
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Old 10-23-2011, 03:13 AM   #27
Chris Li
 
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Demetrio.
I bet he could no doubt. However I was just pointing out to Chris that without all the data to do with the time and place and context then just using a 'he said' to me means nothing.

I'm more interested in what a person believes and can do above their knowledge of history. What's your view now, that's how people generally communicate in life unless they are specifically talking history.

That's all. If someone wants to fill me in on some history then that's good too in it's own way.

Regards.G.
Well, OK, Saito used to carry around a copy of the 1938 manual "Budo" when he was teaching to show people that the way he was teaching it was precisely the same as it was in the 1938 manual. He said that this was the way that he was taught by the founder in Iwama, and that the way that they were doing it in Tokyo was different. It's all on record in various places - an old story, and not under dispute by just about anybody I know of.

Take a look at http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2011/0...tanley-pranin/

And at http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=34 (from 1996!)

But I heard Saito make the statement from his own mouth more than once - and I wasn't even around him all that much.

That doesn't mean, by the way, that I'm saying that what Saito was doing was better (or worse) than what was happening in other places. Just that there's more to the story.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-23-2011, 03:29 AM   #28
graham christian
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well...

Yes, really.

True, it's my assumpution, but the "everything was changed by Ueshiba after the war" argument is pretty thin these days, in the light of recent historical evidence. That's what I'm referring to.

Kisshomaru absolutely spun things - that's been clearly established in the historical record. Peter Goldsbury just posted an entire essay about some of the issues.

Again, I haven't put anybody down - their role after the war is clearly documented, check the evidence. If you have evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it, but you're going to be arguing against a massive amount of published work by Stan Pranin and others.

I don't think there's anything wrong in recognizing their acts as they were - they were both giants in the spread of Aikido, why should the truth be seen as putting them down?

The same guy who said:

敵人の走り来りて"つときは一足よけてすぐに切るべし

"When the enemy comes running forward to strike you must take one step out of the way and cut them down."

Western thinking tends to have one exclude the other. Japanese thinking tends to be less absolute - more on a case by case basis. One of my first instructors got in a fight with some folks from another dojo - after a long lecture on love by Ueshiba the founder came up to him and said "well, how many did you get?". Another direct student (one of the closest) used to rumble regularly in town - with the founder's full knowledge. We don't even have to get started on Arikawa...

Ueshiba was an amazing man all on his own - no need to look at him through rose-colored glasses.

Best,

Chris
Ha, ha. I was looking up your quote, yours not mine. You mention therefore four different names not me . I mention but one, Ueshiba. in response I might add.

As I said, putting down people. The word 'spin' for example. The belief put out that mistranslations are rampant and because of some devious plot. More put down which to me is more misunderstanding on the part of those with hidden agendas themselves or just inherent suspicions overriding wisdom.

Dare I challenge such historians? Yes indeed I dare.

It's not the facts I challenge it's some conclusions and the use of some facts just to fit in with their current view. (usually done by others, not the historians) But having said that a historian should refrain from any conclusion really and remain neutral in my opinion. Of course he or she may then have an opinion but that opinion is of no more worth than anyone elses.

You use examples once again of your teacher after lecture on love and the founder having full knowledge of someone who got into rucks. Why?

Western thinking is another term you use. I suggest you investigate that further. Eastern thinking I would say in those areas concerned were very spiritual as is the history of Aikido in it's essence tracing back through the yamabushi, sohei etc. to chinese monks and that's not even mentioning the hidden role of Korea.

Until the spiritual history is done and understood then how can you understand budo is love?

Becoming enlightened in life and spiritual and religeous matters was not so unusual in the east and that is the crux of what the so called western mind has a hard time understanding.

By the way rose tinted glasses is yet another meaningless statement created by ego to keep people negative I would say. To see the good is a high ability in truth. But that of course takes love.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-23-2011, 03:33 AM   #29
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Carsten M�llering wrote: View Post
Thank you for answering my question.

I don't see this global cange when looking at what we can know about the history of aikido.
And I don't "experience" it when practicing with my teacher who has practiced with the late Sugino Yoshio (besides other teachers).
So I don't agree with your statement. Be it sitting over my books or be it practicing on the tatami.

I myself think that the assumption of a global change after WWII just makes it easier for us, to - seemingly! - understand what Ueshiba thaught and did.
Also, part of the very deliberate post-war effort to separate Aikido from it's militaristic roots (for obvious reasons).

It was also a great sales point to distinguish Aikido from the other arts in post-war Japan.

Even pre-war, Judo and Karate made similar efforts - but Ueshiba and the Aikikai seem to have been the most successful at branding.

I'm not being cynical, I think that he believed in what he was doing - but it wasn't (quite) unique.

Judo under Kano: JITA-KYOEI (Perfection of One's Self and Mutual Welfare and Benefit)

Karate under Funakoshi: Never forget that karate begins and ends with respect. There is no first attack in karate. Karate fosters righteousness.

Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu: Winning without fighting - "Strategies for war become strategies for peace", circa early 1400's.

And others...I think that the pre-war/post-war knife edge dichotomy is way too simplistic.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-23-2011, 03:35 AM   #30
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Re: True Warfare

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ha, ha. I was looking up your quote, yours not mine. You mention therefore four different names not me . I mention but one, Ueshiba. in response I might add.

As I said, putting down people. The word 'spin' for example. The belief put out that mistranslations are rampant and because of some devious plot. More put down which to me is more misunderstanding on the part of those with hidden agendas themselves or just inherent suspicions overriding wisdom.

Dare I challenge such historians? Yes indeed I dare.

It's not the facts I challenge it's some conclusions and the use of some facts just to fit in with their current view. (usually done by others, not the historians) But having said that a historian should refrain from any conclusion really and remain neutral in my opinion. Of course he or she may then have an opinion but that opinion is of no more worth than anyone elses.

You use examples once again of your teacher after lecture on love and the founder having full knowledge of someone who got into rucks. Why?

Western thinking is another term you use. I suggest you investigate that further. Eastern thinking I would say in those areas concerned were very spiritual as is the history of Aikido in it's essence tracing back through the yamabushi, sohei etc. to chinese monks and that's not even mentioning the hidden role of Korea.

Until the spiritual history is done and understood then how can you understand budo is love?

Becoming enlightened in life and spiritual and religeous matters was not so unusual in the east and that is the crux of what the so called western mind has a hard time understanding.

By the way rose tinted glasses is yet another meaningless statement created by ego to keep people negative I would say. To see the good is a high ability in truth. But that of course takes love.

Regards.G.
OK, whatever you say...

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-23-2011, 03:40 AM   #31
graham christian
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Carsten Mllering wrote: View Post
Thank you for answering my question.

I don't see this global cange when looking at what we can know about the history of aikido.
And I don't "experience" it when practicing with my teacher who has practiced with the late Sugino Yoshio (besides other teachers).
So I don't agree with your statement. Be it sitting over my books or be it practicing on the tatami.

I myself think that the assumption of a global change after WWII just makes it easier for us, to - seemingly! - understand what Ueshiba thaught and did.
Thank you too for responding in clear way.

Herein lies the core of the differences of opinion within Aikido. Herein in my opinion lies the reason that Aikido potentially is different to other martial arts. Herein lies the difference between Ueshibas personal ability and others.

Not trying to convince you but merely stating where I come from.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-23-2011, 04:06 AM   #32
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Re: True Warfare

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
By the way rose tinted glasses is yet another meaningless statement created by ego to keep people negative I would say.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, too. Saying it's "meaningless" seems just as potentially ego-driven to me. It's a valid point to make that people often look to great men and affix more of a personal/subjective truth to the objective reality. From what I can see of the "harmony" (heiwa) interpretation of Aikido, it's a fair reminder to make from time to time. I'm an idealist at heart, so I often need such reminders. Of course we ought not easily forsake the ideals for the facility of pragmatism, but sometimes we must start at the bottom of the proverbial mountain, away from the bedrock of those lofty positions. I think O Sensei recognized this kind of baseline of reality and it was from this realization that his ideals of reconciling the world took their deepest meaning. Sometimes people have to kill...it's just less often than many might think, unfortunately.
...My tupence.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-23-2011, 04:22 AM   #33
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Torbjorn Saw wrote: View Post
Before invading another country we send our spies in. They infiltrate the nerve centers without being noticed. At the time of full scale attack they cut the supply lines and destroy the electrical power stations. Caught off-guard the enemy rush to their battle stations only to be picked off one after one. Without their essential power supply they loose all their counter force and are easily overrun. Without any delay we occupy the main crossroads and key locations, hold the high ground and send our spies even further ahead, to infiltrate the very heart of resistance. Without firing even one shot we flood the enemy land with our own forces, occupying it to squeeze out any remaining opposition. In one well planned and well executed strike we manage to neutralize and overtake our opponent without much loss on either side.
I'm guessing this isn't a prescription for war so much as a metaphor for how we might project our ki/intent into our would-be attackers, maximizing utility?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-23-2011, 09:04 AM   #34
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
OK, whatever you say...

Best,

Chris
Chris: thank you for your impartial, reasoned, intelligent, and knowledgeable posts; many of those reading have surely been greatly informed by them.
I think, however, you are trying to reason with a bigot: a man whose interest is not in facts - only in the false reality he has constructed for himself.
For a man lacking ego, he comes across as very egotistical.
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:09 AM   #35
graham christian
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Re: True Warfare

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, too. Saying it's "meaningless" seems just as potentially ego-driven to me. It's a valid point to make that people often look to great men and affix more of a personal/subjective truth to the objective reality. From what I can see of the "harmony" (heiwa) interpretation of Aikido, it's a fair reminder to make from time to time. I'm an idealist at heart, so I often need such reminders. Of course we ought not easily forsake the ideals for the facility of pragmatism, but sometimes we must start at the bottom of the proverbial mountain, away from the bedrock of those lofty positions. I think O Sensei recognized this kind of baseline of reality and it was from this realization that his ideals of reconciling the world took their deepest meaning. Sometimes people have to kill...it's just less often than many might think, unfortunately.
...My tupence.
Take care,
Matt
True definition of rose tinted glasses. Unfortunately used in the accusative for point scoring is merely a worthless statement. As I said seeing the good is an ability and real.

I know people who start at the bottom of the proverbial mountain yet recognise the the ideals as real and worth striving for.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:17 AM   #36
graham christian
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Re: True Warfare

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Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Chris: thank you for your impartial, reasoned, intelligent, and knowledgeable posts; many of those reading have surely been greatly informed by them.
I think, however, you are trying to reason with a bigot: a man whose interest is not in facts - only in the false reality he has constructed for himself.
For a man lacking ego, he comes across as very egotistical.
Obviously you don't agree with budo is love.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:35 AM   #37
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Re: True Warfare

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Obviously you don't agree with budo is love.

Regards.G.
How is that obvious?

I don't agree with your refusal to allow facts to interfere with your conclusions.

Your very claim that 'Budo is love.' is open to all kinds of objections: 'What is love?'; 'How do you express love?'; etc.
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:57 AM   #38
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Re: True Warfare

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Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
How is that obvious?

I don't agree with your refusal to allow facts to interfere with your conclusions.

Your very claim that 'Budo is love.' is open to all kinds of objections: 'What is love?'; 'How do you express love?'; etc.
Why should I allow facts to interfere with my conclusions when I point out how incomplete they are?

You can disagree by all means as is your right but name calliing?

Budo is love. Yes, you merely point to what I've said all along. The problem isn't japanese translations but not knowing the meaning or having reality on the english words like love.

Without such reality people have to believe Ueshiba meant a, b, c, d. No, he meant budo is love. When you understand that clearly you can understand better Aikido. To me it's self evident.

I can demonstrate and teach such. No problem. If that's a problem to you or any others who don't have that particular reality then what can I say? It's an immovable truth for me. Quite demonstratable.

If you don't know or even believe in such then carry on and talk about what you do.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-23-2011, 11:24 AM   #39
Gorgeous George
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Re: True Warfare

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Why should I allow facts to interfere with my conclusions when I point out how incomplete they are?

You can disagree by all means as is your right but name calliing?

Budo is love. Yes, you merely point to what I've said all along. The problem isn't japanese translations but not knowing the meaning or having reality on the english words like love.

Without such reality people have to believe Ueshiba meant a, b, c, d. No, he meant budo is love. When you understand that clearly you can understand better Aikido. To me it's self evident.

I can demonstrate and teach such. No problem. If that's a problem to you or any others who don't have that particular reality then what can I say? It's an immovable truth for me. Quite demonstratable.

If you don't know or even believe in such then carry on and talk about what you do.

Regards.G.
Name-calling? To what are you referring?

The point these good people have been making to you, is that you don't know very much - at all - about Ueshiba, his thoughts on aikido, or those other figures - who were actually there.

So you prattle on about 'What aikido is.', and 'What Ueshiba meant.' - but as a rational observer, and as a historian, I see everything you say as entirely worthless; it wouldn't even be entertained as a source, if historians, in the future, looked at this thread.

Do you honestly think that if someone like Ueshiba, or Saito, or Shioda, saw your aikido, they'd be impressed?
Fair enough: you like one perspective on the 'spiritual' side of aikido - but to express it through aikido, you have to...be able to express it through aikido, something you seem unable to do.

You might think you understand aiki with your mind, but do you understand it with your body? - that's a big reason why I feel aggrieved at how you act: because there are people out there with vastly superior ability at aikido, who actually say they barely understand it - hell: i've got a book written by Gozo Shioda in the eighties, I believe, where he actually says that he is only just beginning to understand some of the things Ueshiba talked about in the thirties...but you have all the answers?!
Seishiro Endo - 8th dan, and someone whose ability I massively admire - says that he is still trying to become soft, to become good...but you have all the answers? You know everything?

I don't believe you can demonstrate aikido, no - for I am a student of this grandmaster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNAWff9Daqg

He has massive ki balls.
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Old 10-23-2011, 01:25 PM   #40
graham christian
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Re: True Warfare

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Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Name-calling? To what are you referring?

The point these good people have been making to you, is that you don't know very much - at all - about Ueshiba, his thoughts on aikido, or those other figures - who were actually there.

So you prattle on about 'What aikido is.', and 'What Ueshiba meant.' - but as a rational observer, and as a historian, I see everything you say as entirely worthless; it wouldn't even be entertained as a source, if historians, in the future, looked at this thread.

Do you honestly think that if someone like Ueshiba, or Saito, or Shioda, saw your aikido, they'd be impressed?
Fair enough: you like one perspective on the 'spiritual' side of aikido - but to express it through aikido, you have to...be able to express it through aikido, something you seem unable to do.

You might think you understand aiki with your mind, but do you understand it with your body? - that's a big reason why I feel aggrieved at how you act: because there are people out there with vastly superior ability at aikido, who actually say they barely understand it - hell: i've got a book written by Gozo Shioda in the eighties, I believe, where he actually says that he is only just beginning to understand some of the things Ueshiba talked about in the thirties...but you have all the answers?!
Seishiro Endo - 8th dan, and someone whose ability I massively admire - says that he is still trying to become soft, to become good...but you have all the answers? You know everything?

I don't believe you can demonstrate aikido, no - for I am a student of this grandmaster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNAWff9Daqg

He has massive ki balls.
Ha, ha. He has something, maybe you think that's Ki.

If that's the point these good people are making then they are sadly mistaken. I think I read once that Ueshiba told some omoto students in answer to their questioning him about what that Aikido that he does was about. He said he thought they knew more Aikido than his students.

I never mentioned aiki so don't even go there.

I met Shioda and wasn't impressed. I met Kanetsuka and was impressed. We all have ones we like more than others. Nothing new there.

Yeah, your view on my Aikido may be shared by many but those with that view cannot do what I do. That may sound arrogant to you but it isn't is just as it is. Why should that annoy you?

You don't believe it. That about sums it up.

Senshiro Endo says such things then I'm sure I could help him out there, now how's that for 'arrogance' or is it confidence.

I am not a label, I am me and I can do what I say I can. Until you understand that then you can only place me in categories to fit your own mind.

Labels and titles don't mean to me what they do to you.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-23-2011, 02:38 PM   #41
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ha, ha. He has something, maybe you think that's Ki.

If that's the point these good people are making then they are sadly mistaken. I think I read once that Ueshiba told some omoto students in answer to their questioning him about what that Aikido that he does was about. He said he thought they knew more Aikido than his students.

I never mentioned aiki so don't even go there.

I met Shioda and wasn't impressed. I met Kanetsuka and was impressed. We all have ones we like more than others. Nothing new there.

Yeah, your view on my Aikido may be shared by many but those with that view cannot do what I do. That may sound arrogant to you but it isn't is just as it is. Why should that annoy you?

You don't believe it. That about sums it up.

Senshiro Endo says such things then I'm sure I could help him out there, now how's that for 'arrogance' or is it confidence.

I am not a label, I am me and I can do what I say I can. Until you understand that then you can only place me in categories to fit your own mind.

Labels and titles don't mean to me what they do to you.

Regards.G.
...is anyone actually in agreement with this guy?
Why is his absurd trolling tolerated, when Tony Wagstaffe's wasn't?
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Old 10-23-2011, 02:43 PM   #42
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Re: True Warfare

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Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
...is anyone actually in agreement with this guy?
I bet more people than you expect.

Quote:
Why is his absurd trolling tolerated, when Tony Wagstaffe's wasn't?
Manners.

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Old 10-23-2011, 02:51 PM   #43
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Re: True Warfare

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I bet more people than you expect.

Manners.
You're probably right.
I'm all for aikido as a form of misogi; a 'spiritual' practice; and as a budo - even more so, now that I train BJJ, do I see its restorative, energising benefits.

However, when people claim to be good at aikido, yet their ukes never challenge them, they're not speaking the truth.
Even if you just do aikido as a meditative thing, and have no illusions about martial ability, if you aren't actually taking someone's balance, through the use of aiki, then you aren't doing aikido: you're living in a fantasy world, wasting your time, and not getting the benefits you seek, or speak of.

Regards manners: Tony wasn't that discourteous...was he?
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Old 10-23-2011, 03:06 PM   #44
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Re: True Warfare

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Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Regards manners: Tony wasn't that discourteous...was he?
British working class vs American burgueoises... clash of cultures. He lost.

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Old 10-23-2011, 03:50 PM   #45
Janet Rosen
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Re: True Warfare

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Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
...is anyone actually in agreement with this guy?
Why is his absurd trolling tolerated, when Tony Wagstaffe's wasn't?
Partly manners as noted and I think many of us have just given up on having productive arguementd because of how the ground shifts so just don't engage anymore.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-23-2011, 03:52 PM   #46
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Re: True Warfare

Re the OP - like Matthew I read it as a macro version if you will of the concept of ki(or intent) leads mind, mind leads body ... tho it would be nice for OP to return to the thread and engage or comment a bit!

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Old 10-23-2011, 04:07 PM   #47
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Re: True Warfare

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Partly manners as noted and I think many of us have just given up on having productive arguementd because of how the ground shifts so just don't engage anymore.
I'm glad it's not just me...

I might actually have to use the ignore feature, for the first time.
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Old 10-23-2011, 05:04 PM   #48
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
You're probably right.
I'm all for aikido as a form of misogi; a 'spiritual' practice; and as a budo - even more so, now that I train BJJ, do I see its restorative, energising benefits.

However, when people claim to be good at aikido, yet their ukes never challenge them, they're not speaking the truth.
Even if you just do aikido as a meditative thing, and have no illusions about martial ability, if you aren't actually taking someone's balance, through the use of aiki, then you aren't doing aikido: you're living in a fantasy world, wasting your time, and not getting the benefits you seek, or speak of.

Regards manners: Tony wasn't that discourteous...was he?
This sounds discourteous to me.

As I said. You don't believe. That's all. Oh and don't feel alone, nor do some others.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:15 PM   #49
Gorgeous George
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 464
United Kingdom
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
This sounds discourteous to me.

As I said. You don't believe. That's all. Oh and don't feel alone, nor do some others.

Regards.G.
...that's neither here nor there, O Great Sage.

It's not a matter of belief: it's a matter of justifying your position.
Racists can't justify their position, so they are disregarded; creationists cannot justify their position, so they are disregarded; you can't justify your position...

If Ueshiba had just gone around...talking, then aikido would have died on its arse; instead, he put his money where his mouth was, proved himself - and what luck: you've heard of aikido.

And if you're such a nice, peaceful, enlightened guy, then why are you content to be an annoyance?
Aren't you just posting in order to puff yourself up?
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Old 10-23-2011, 08:37 PM   #50
Anthony Loeppert
Dojo: Aikido of Del Mar
Location: San Diego, CA
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 155
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Re: True Warfare

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I met Shioda and wasn't impressed.
...
Yeah, your view on my Aikido may be shared by many but those with that view cannot do what I do.
That may sound arrogant to you but it isn't is just as it is.
Arrogant yes. But by focusing too much on that aspect you ignore the incoherence of your message which is also worthy of mention.

Regards,
Anthony
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