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Old 10-13-2011, 02:51 PM   #76
Eric Joyce
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Some additional information about fights going to the ground to supplement what Cliff posted.

http://ejmas.com/jnc/2007jnc/jncart_Leblanc_0701.html

This article is in regards to an LAPD study. To quote the author, short conclusion here: "The LAPD study does not show that "90% of fights go to the ground." Instead, the LAPD study shows that 95% of altercations took on one of five familiar patterns (with which any street cop will be intimately familiar). It also shows that of that 95%, 62% ended up with both the officer and the suspect grappling on the ground."

I apologize for the thread drift, but thought this article was an interesting read for those engaged in this thread.

Eric Joyce
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Old 10-13-2011, 04:00 PM   #77
graham christian
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
So you agree that aikido is not equiped to handle realistic combat situations, like grappling? That's the only point I was making. I mean it's a fine martial art, it's just that it wasn't developed for realistc combat situations. That's not to say you couldn't still use your Aikido skills and prevail in a street fight. It's just that it was really designed for the sloppy brawling aspects of street fighting.
How about this? Aikido is the best martial art for handling street situations.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-13-2011, 05:05 PM   #78
genin
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
FWIW, Here is an interesting piece of semi-formal research on the whole "95% of fights go to the ground" thing. I think I originally found this link somewhere on these forums.
Interesting article. I wasn't implying that it is likely that your opponent will take you to the ground. I was just saying that if they did choose to take you down, especially if you weren't expecting it, then your aikido techniques will not be very useful in that particular situation (based on the techniques I am aware of). But still, 60%-90% of fights seem like they go to the ground based on the studies.

You could also argue that your Aikido knowledge might help prevent you from being in a fight in the first place, or at least put you in a favorable upright position once the conflict starts. There a lot of different sides to this.
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Old 10-13-2011, 08:10 PM   #79
Michael Hackett
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

The Leblanc article concerning the Dorsey study was interesting, but still somewhat misleading to a member of the public. Officers are trained specifically to take individuals to the ground in a use of force situation in order to control them for handcuffing. While the UOF reports show that the "fight" went to the ground, it really isn't in the context of grappling or Gracie Jujutsu, but rather a pinning technique. LAPD is the home of "The Koga Method" which is still being taught in their academy and in-service training. For those not familiar with Koga, Bob Koga is an aikidoka who first brought aikido to LAPD and continues to train LEOs all over the country. Here in California one will see the bar arm takedown frequently as it is taught to all officers by standards set by POST (California Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training). That particular takedown technique would be recognized by any aikido practitioner as an Ikkyo, however crude it may be by comparison.

Some agencies are also including additional training in what I would term as groundfighting, with the Gracie GRAPLE (Gracie Resisting Attack Procedures for Law Enforcement) being one of the most popular courses.

While these two studies are moving in the right direction, they still don't capture the most salient issue to LEOs, that of officers being taken to the ground and using groundfighting techniques to defend themselves and overcome resistance. The data, so far at least, is simply not available for capture and analysis. For example, the LA Sheriff's Department has a comprehensive UOF reporting system that requires a supervisory level investigation of any force event that goes beyond a simple handcuffing. Those reports are reviewed by both the Internal Affairs Bureau and the Training Bureau, as well as the officer's chain of command. There is a data entry component to these reports, but the most information is found in a narrative portion of the report. The data entry information would show that the officer used "personal weapons" (hands, feet) if he entered into a BJJ scenario.

I think that the mythical 90% is correct in that virtually every struggle in police work does go to the ground in the sense that the officer forced the suspect down to pin him and handcuff him. While I've never conducted a study myself, my own anecdotal experience shows me that actually very few confrontations result in groundfighting/grappling/BJJ as most of us would know it. Regardless of what the actual percentage is, I remain convinced that having ground skills in addition to other defensive tactics would be valuable to LEOs anywhere. I have to admit to a bias here though in that I have trained in the GRAPLE program as well as Koga based Defensive Tactics and my son, a third generation cop, is also a Gracie BJJ instructor with his own school. To paraphrase "The Most Interesting Man in the World", I don't always end up on my back, but when I do, I prefer to have grappling training.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:55 AM   #80
genin
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

LEOs take suspects to the ground to restrain them, but in a real fight, your opponent is taking you to the ground for a different reason--to hurt you. MMA fighters go to the ground when they are tired or if they think their grappling skills are superior to their opponents. If you are not in law enforcement, nor an MMA fighter, then you don't necessarily need to know how to use non-lethal grappling tactics in a ground situation. Simple moves like biting or eye-gouging would be just as effective. No rules in a real fight.
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Old 10-14-2011, 08:13 AM   #81
grondahl
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
Simple moves like biting or eye-gouging would be just as effective. No rules in a real fight.
In unlikely the event of being taken down by someone that have basic groundfighting skills it will really hard for you to use biting och eye gouging.
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:45 AM   #82
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
If you are not in law enforcement, nor an MMA fighter, then you don't necessarily need to know how to use non-lethal grappling tactics in a ground situation. Simple moves like biting or eye-gouging would be just as effective. No rules in a real fight.
So you suggest to maim and seriously injure (easier said than done, btw) another person when you could have solved the situation in a less injurious way with grappling techniques.

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Old 10-14-2011, 09:57 AM   #83
genin
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
In unlikely the event of being taken down by someone that have basic groundfighting skills it will really hard for you to use biting och eye gouging.
At least that would be an option that is on the table. I've seen many MMA fights where they are on the ground and the person's arm or hand is right by the other guys face, but obviously they can't bite or poke at the eyes. But in a real fight you could if the opportunity arose. I agree that if you are mounted and getting pummeled with punches, then biting would probably not be effective at that point.
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:36 AM   #84
graham christian
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Regarding policemen as being people in the front line on a daily basis may I say that I have trained with one for many years and taught one. Both report that Aikido itself has never let them down and both have over twenty years experience in all kinds of situations.

One funny situation Dave told me about a couple of years ago which he laughingly told me was kokyunage was this:

A guy approached him in his local in Watford and asked him if he wanted a big flat screen t.v. but he must decide quickly cos it's 'hot' Dave said 'I welcomed him, joined with him, led him to my van and had him put it in the back. once he was inside I locked the door and took him down to the nick.' (police station)

Aikido in action in a street/pub situation no?

Regards.G.
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Old 10-14-2011, 12:30 PM   #85
Don Nordin
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Two untrained people fighting will likely result in a ground scuffle. My Dad was an experienced "club fighter" from the 60's and a brawler by anyones definition, he always told me the fight completely changes when you go to the ground. Try to avoid but it is going to happen. We do train in specific ground fighting techniques in our dojo and think it very valuable training for any Aikido player.
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:11 PM   #86
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Since aikido "doesn't work" in fighting or street situations, I wonder what I was using in Viet Nam to defend myself and what I used as a Deputy Sheriff when I took down more than my share of bad guys--in the jail scene and on the road. I could swear it was Aikido that Tomiki shihan taught me but since aikido doesn't work, I wonder what it was. Even when I went to the ground, more than once, I was quite effective with whatever it was I was using.
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:41 PM   #87
Krystal Locke
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Roger, what is your experience with fighting? You mention a LOT of MMA events, but those carefully controlled events are not fights.

Seriously, if you absolutely HAVE to find out if your stuff, whether it is aikido, ninjutsu or knitting, will work in a fight, go get in a fight.

Bouncers dont fight, cops dont fight. Bouncers and cops finish fights between other people. Bouncers and cops control folks who need control. Not a fight, and that's a real good thing.

Nothing you know will work in a fight, everything you know can work in a fight. Fights are random, chaotic, emotion filled, terrifying, ginormous clusterfucks of comeplete unpredictability that are best completely avoided. Someone could get hurt.

Training (in anything) gives some advantages, but no art is universally effective or universally ineffectual.
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:50 PM   #88
Krystal Locke
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Don Nordin wrote: View Post
Two untrained people fighting will likely result in a ground scuffle. My Dad was an experienced "club fighter" from the 60's and a brawler by anyones definition, he always told me the fight completely changes when you go to the ground. Try to avoid but it is going to happen. We do train in specific ground fighting techniques in our dojo and think it very valuable training for any Aikido player.
Fights end up on the ground a LOT. But fighters are not taking the fight to the ground intentionally. Fighting folks fall down, and they usually have as little of a clue about what to do on the ground as they have in the standup portion of their fight. A little ground skill goes a long way, I could use a bit more instruction in ground fighting.

I've noticed 3 stages in most of the fights I've witnessed and broken up. 3 Fs - Fussing, Fighting, and Fucking. Two are good points for intervention, from a fight-stopper's point of view. If the people are jawing back and forth, get in quick, separate them, calm them down and either bounce them or throw them back in if they calm down well and agree to behave. If they're already shoving or punching, wait a minute, you may get hurt intervening. They'll pretty quickly get to the last phase, clinched and rolling around on the ground like lovemonkeys. Much easier place to dogpile yourself and a few coworkers on them to get them separated, restrained and hauled the hell out.
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:56 PM   #89
genin
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

I'm not really into fighting. I used to watch MMA when I was younger, but I'm not that into it anymore. I wouldn't "fight" anyone even if I wanted to be violent. I would simply attack them. Preferably I'd hit them with a heavey or sharp object when they weren't expecting it.

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
Since aikido "doesn't work" in fighting or street situations, I wonder what I was using in Viet Nam to defend myself and what I used as a Deputy Sheriff when I took down more than my share of bad guys--in the jail scene and on the road. I could swear it was Aikido that Tomiki shihan taught me but since aikido doesn't work, I wonder what it was. Even when I went to the ground, more than once, I was quite effective with whatever it was I was using.
Specifically, what aikido move did you use to overcome an opponent once you were on the ground?
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Old 10-17-2011, 07:21 AM   #90
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Specifically, since Tomiki shihan included judo in his style, I used chokes---Koshi Jime and Hadaka Jime were my 2 favorites. I actually used an Irimi Nage a couple of times not to mention armbars. But since each scene/situation is different, each would require different techniques/moves. So what was good one time, would not be useful in the next situation.
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:49 AM   #91
Gorgeous George
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Isn't the purpose of aikido training to stay on your feet when people grab you, and try to throw you/put you on the ground etc.?
I've certainly found in BJJ sparring that people - even the big and heavy, or big strong ones - have a lot of trouble getting me on the ground; just the other day, a man who must weigh fifteen stone was using all his might to wrestle me to the ground, and I performed a beautiful, textbook judo throw (it was like ashi guruma, but you put the ball of your foot on the ground, so the toes point to your other foot...also: I was there to do BJJ, not aikido, before you say); you give that kind of energy/opening to someone who's actually good at aikido, you'll end up on the floor, on your own.

And when I do practice BJJ (on the ground), I just try and do what I do in aikido (albeit while performing BJJ techniques): use the hips; stay relaxed; connect to your partner; use your whole body as one...
And after six weeks at BJJ, i've been told my top-game is equivalent to someone who's trained for six months; so I think adding a third location (tachi-waza; suwari-waza; - ne-waza) to put your aikido training to use, isn't that much of an ask - certainly when you're only concerned with 'street situations': i've sparred with plenty of beginners, who are big and strong, and really are fighting to 'win'.
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Old 10-20-2011, 08:35 AM   #92
Chris Evans
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

my novice view is that, if practiced with pressure & pain, without too much compliance for the advanced students, then aikido (and karate) can be effective training to prevent or survive violence, while keeping on you feet, esp. when out of 'bullets." I almost never ever carry 'bullets" (or knives, bats, etc). Also, some protection vs. gravity's a nice bonus, since I've had to deal with falls & crashes often as a mountain bike and racing coach. I attribute not breaking my neck or collar bone from daily air falls, rolls, and blending practices of hapkido.

I respect the BJJ, MMA, and kyokushin/enshin players using the term "fight" for sporting contests and I go along with that, merely out of respect. Even on ground grappling contests (all BJJ games start on feet, btw) , I can imagine the aikido benefits to help staying on your feet.

My years of hapkido, karate, and brief intro to aikido reveles that ineffectiveness arises from clinging to physically delusional, overly comfort driven prices. If you can find a dojo that balance realistic conditioning (impact and contact) and safety in order to train again next day then you're in a special place.

that cliche is true: it's more the indian, not the arrow.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:35 AM   #93
lbb
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Chris Evans wrote: View Post
My years of hapkido, karate, and brief intro to aikido reveles that ineffectiveness arises from clinging to physically delusional, overly comfort driven prices.
Absolutely. Like Dunkin Donuts. Their coffee is much, much cheaper than Thinking Cup, and so people cling to that comfort-driven price and kid themselves that it's decent coffee. Why the nerve of them.

(folks, it's really all being rehashed and it's all been said before, so maybe it's time to stop reviving this thread?)
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:14 PM   #94
grondahl
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Chris Evans wrote: View Post
that cliche is true: it's more the indian, not the arrow.
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:57 AM   #95
Tim Gerrard
 
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Regarding policemen as being people in the front line on a daily basis may I say that I have trained with one for many years and taught one. Both report that Aikido itself has never let them down and both have over twenty years experience in all kinds of situations.
.
I agree, it has at times been messy, but it has never let me down either.
Although there is something to be said regarding 'it's the fighter, rather than the art' that matters. Some dan grade aikidokas I have trained with couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, whereas some people have natural talent without any sort of formal training.

Aikido doesn't work? My Aikido works, what on earth are you practicing?!
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:07 AM   #96
Chris Evans
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Freaky! Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Absolutely. Like Dunkin Donuts. Their coffee is much, much cheaper than Thinking Cup, and so people cling to that comfort-driven price and kid themselves that it's decent coffee. Why the nerve of them.

(folks, it's really all being rehashed and it's all been said before, so maybe it's time to stop reviving this thread?)
agreed, with a chuckle, and with apologies for fanning this thread, although not everyone here's an aikiweb savvy reader who's heard it all before on this incessantly recurring and rightfully relevant topic.

Last edited by Chris Evans : 10-24-2011 at 08:10 AM.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 10-24-2011, 09:15 AM   #97
lbb
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Rightfully relevant my behind. Talking about "aikido in a street situation" is like asking "How long is a string?" What string are you talking about? What street are you talking about?

Lather, rinse, repeat. It will never change. Never, ever, ever.
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:30 PM   #98
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Rightfully relevant my behind. Talking about "aikido in a street situation" is like asking "How long is a string?" What string are you talking about? What street are you talking about?

Lather, rinse, repeat. It will never change. Never, ever, ever.
The more things stay the same, the more they change, but how does that make this irrelevant? "How long is a string?" isn't necessarily irrelevant; it's just nebulous. This might just be another example of The Thread Which Must Not Be Named, but the relevancy seems to depend on individual interests. In other words, it might not be relevant to you, but can still be perfectly relevant to others...can't it?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:51 PM   #99
hallsbayfisherman
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Relating to my experience,I have had many occasions where Aikido training has been very effective for me in the following ways:

1) the control,arrest and handcuffing of passive to moderate resisting suspects using many of the armlocks/takedowns and wrist controls that we learn.

2) the ability of knowing how to roll and breakfall as saved me from injury several times when i fell while in a footchase.

3)I have also found that the turning,spinning movements and shifting out of the line of attack as been quite useful in avoiding getting hit on occasions and the ability to confuse the assailant and get behind him/her much faster and easier and take control that way.

AND just as many other occasions while under full out assault where it was of little to no use to me.

That's my experience with Aikido and i am glad that i have trained in it ,as you can see it was quite useful to me.

Just remember the limitation of all the martial arts that are undertaken in a safe controlled gym/dojo enviromentf and no one martial art is going to be effective for every scenario that's why i have cross trained in BJJ and kickboxing and maintain good physical conditioning.

I can also say that,other than work related incidents,i have never been in a physical confrontation while of duty,so i would suggest train hard,train often and train long term mainly for the enjoyment of it and not get to focused or concerned about the "will it work if i get attacked" scenario.

Regards
WJ
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:54 PM   #100
Chris Evans
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

For street situations, BJJ and (kick)boxing, plus a lot of anaerobic fitness is all that one needs (to resolve an unavoidable contact): Never the less, they're somethings compelling about aikido, especially on how harmonious the practice is in facing old age.

How the venerable Aikido founder seems to be so alive and effective makes an impression.

When "push comes to shove" I have a haunch that strong aikido and a 45ACP pistol may be all that is really needed in close quarters, in a street, home, or in an airplane to resist "evil."

Of all the martial arts discussions that I have had over the decades ( and i've had way too many) the points of views of "practical" aikido-ka and MMA "fighters" have been the most interesting.

Any hour spent training in martial arts beats any hour spent on the Internet or on watching broadcast TV, usually, for what may work in real life.

P.S. just read the post by WJ above: outstanding. Thank you.

Last edited by Chris Evans : 10-24-2011 at 04:57 PM.

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