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Old 10-06-2011, 08:20 AM   #126
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual Power

Gary, I think you have it the wrong way around.

It is not contentment or satisfaction with the content of your training that stops you learning it's quite the opposite.

Once again it amazes me how some feel they know what's best for someone else. As I said earlier..... presumption.

Now someone not content or satisfied with the content of their training, well there's the person who has stopped learning.

Dan teaches these people, giving them what was missing for them, that's why it's good.

By presuming you imply the person is stupid, cannot think for their self, needs your advice and thus your being so 'helpful'

Such advice is helpful only for those who ask for it otherwise it's completely misplaced.

But there again, if your spirit moved you to write such then maybe you too are on topic..ha,ha.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-06-2011, 08:55 AM   #127
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I would posit based on experience in the world and as a longtime health professional that a lot of those who habitually act from jealousy, greed or vindictiveness DON'T in fact recognize they are "incorrect" feelings.
They are their feelings, they perceive them as legitimate, they embrace them as old familiar friends, and they act on them.
Hence my lack of acceptance of "correct" or "incorrect" feeling as being very useful constructs.
"Correct feeling" as I am using it isn't talking about a feeling like jealousy or anger. Think of "correct feeling" as a term with no judgment that indicates to yourself if you are centered and connected with you partner.

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Old 10-06-2011, 09:00 AM   #128
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Spiritual Power

@ Gary: I think you mean that in the best way.

For me is a spiritual journey. I have to choose my guides carefully. Help is only helpful if it asked for. I don't know what you need and you really have no idea what I need.

The thread is about spiritual power. In our training we have to be so careful not give our power away in a way that diminishes us.

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Old 10-06-2011, 09:11 AM   #129
gregstec
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Re: Spiritual Power

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Very presumtious.....
Nothing 'presumtious' nor presumptuous was stated - just made comment on Dan's position of authority with a follow on statement that meeting could not hurt - simple as that.

Greg
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Old 10-06-2011, 09:42 AM   #130
Janet Rosen
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
"Correct feeling" as I am using it isn't talking about a feeling like jealousy or anger. Think of "correct feeling" as a term with no judgment that indicates to yourself if you are centered and connected with you partner.
Mary, I was responding directly to another poster, refuting his position on the topic of correct and incorrect feeling.

In terms of your use of the term, may I suggest that part of why it is becoming the object of some arguing is semantics? What I mean is, I suspect you are using "correct feeling" as a shorthand that in fact involves more than the words convey.
That there is an actual feedback loop that tells you "you are centered and connected with you partner" and that this manifests very concretely in the fact that you and your partner then form a unit and your movement affects your partner, etc....

When you shorthand it to "correct feeling" it conveys something that is inherently individual, ideosyncratic and unteachable, when in fact being centered and connected to another person of course is teachable.

My two cents

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-06-2011, 10:32 AM   #131
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual Power

Spiritual Power. To recognise those spiritual principles extant in the universe and Aikido, to learn how to use them thus gain ability. To be at one with them in operation could be considered spiritual power.

It would also be harmony.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-06-2011, 10:44 AM   #132
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Gary, I think you have it the wrong way around.

It is not contentment or satisfaction with the content of your training that stops you learning it's quite the opposite.

Once again it amazes me how some feel they know what's best for someone else. As I said earlier..... presumption.

Now someone not content or satisfied with the content of their training, well there's the person who has stopped learning.

Dan teaches these people, giving them what was missing for them, that's why it's good.

By presuming you imply the person is stupid, cannot think for their self, needs your advice and thus your being so 'helpful'

Such advice is helpful only for those who ask for it otherwise it's completely misplaced.

But there again, if your spirit moved you to write such then maybe you too are on topic..ha,ha.

Regards.G.
Graham
It is clear that you and I don't travel the same road......and even if we were we are not even close to being in the same point along the way. It is your "call" that I am presuming to give others advice and that I have called anyone "stupid".....and I don't care to be helpful in the context that you are putting it in. You are right that suggestion from me were not requested...so don't take them. I would give you the same suggestion, visit Dan and see what is what.

You presume to know me through a few short posts here, maybe from a short PM exchange some time back or by placing your overlay/template on to me. You don't know me, don't presume to. I will say that I have had the opportunity to view a lot of video, then grab wrists with the same folks.....so I do have some level of understanding of what is going on in any video i have the chance to view. I also consider that I have some understanding of what is hard, what is soft and what is effective soft, but don't take my word for it as this may only be a presumption on my part.

I think I am done with posting here, so presuming, suggestions and advice won't be an issue for me going forward.... Have a great day.....
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Old 10-06-2011, 11:07 AM   #133
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
It is clear that you and I don't travel the same road......and even if we were we are not even close to being in the same point along the way. It is your "call" that I am presuming to give others advice and that I have called anyone "stupid".....and I don't care to be helpful in the context that you are putting it in. You are right that suggestion from me were not requested...so don't take them. I would give you the same suggestion, visit Dan and see what is what.

You presume to know me through a few short posts here, maybe from a short PM exchange some time back or by placing your overlay/template on to me. You don't know me, don't presume to. I will say that I have had the opportunity to view a lot of video, then grab wrists with the same folks.....so I do have some level of understanding of what is going on in any video i have the chance to view. I also consider that I have some understanding of what is hard, what is soft and what is effective soft, but don't take my word for it as this may only be a presumption on my part.

I think I am done with posting here, so presuming, suggestions and advice won't be an issue for me going forward.... Have a great day.....
Gary. I presume nothing about you. Why do you think I do? By what you say now and in the past I can see you have knowledge and experience and a level of understanding of those things you talk about.

How many times in my life have I presumed or assumed something and offered help only to get egg on my face? Many.

I merely point out a fact and the consequences of such that we don't usually look at.

Did you know rather than presume or assume you could merely ask?

If I presume another needs to do something I am assuming I know best. Simple really.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-06-2011, 12:12 PM   #134
DH
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Re: Spiritual Power

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Well Brother
Spirit to intention to breath to physical movement to physical strength. As you know most of us start at one end, either spiritual or the strength, and never reach the other and never see the connection. We never put them all together. So to talk just about spiritual power leaves out the others.
Gary
There is no doubt about the positive effect aikido has on people. I've said before that I have encountered so many people in the art who approach it for different reasons; some for martial effectiveness, others who while quite competent in other venues enjoy the de-escalation, others for the fun of the connecting and air time, and others who feel a sense of spirituality to it. The umbrella is big enough for everyone.
If it is not valid to say it HAS to be martially viable.
Then it is equally invalid to say it has to be spiritual.
Is there a way to be both at once?

Interestingly the historical hinge pin was how the Asians tied their spiritual beliefs to physical processes, not how postmodern Caucasians are seeking to do so. Unfortunately we see few people interested in pursuing what the Asians saw as important in a joined process. What we have left is many people with little to no real power, nor real ability to connect and control without hyper cooperation or they resort to cranking and hard throwing, who are also utilizing a re-write of a spirituality over Ueshiba's that is almost completely divorced from its origins.
One wonders why they use the word Aikido at all.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I would posit based on experience in the world and as a longtime health professional that a lot of those who habitually act from jealousy, greed or vindictiveness DON'T in fact recognize they are "incorrect" feelings.
They are their feelings, they perceive them as legitimate, they embrace them as old familiar friends, and they act on them.
Hence my lack of acceptance of "correct" or "incorrect" feeling as being very useful constructs.
Good points, Janet and in a similar vein;
I would posit based on my experience in the Aikido world and as a longtime martial artist that a lot of those who habitually act from feeling and unorganized guesswork of notions of aiki connection do not in fact recognize their feelings are "incorrect" feelings that simply will not work on someone who actually knows what aiki is.
They perceive them as correct and legitimate, they embrace them as old familiar friends, and they act on them, yet they cannot define them and do not in fact have a clue as to what they really are. Hence, my questioning "correct" or "incorrect" feeling as being useful teaching constructs for anything meaningful in Budo. At the end of the day if people cannot define it themselves, then what does that mean? Hoew does it really help? Is it guesswork and hope? It is obvious that assigning a spiritual component to it would be a logical step.
1. They don't know how they did it.
2. They can't explain it.
3. it's a mystery to them as they search for that feeling to happen again, so it is a wonder
4. So some erroneously assign an unknown to it-like spirituality.
As they say "No beans to me." But it is damn curious as a training tool.

Change of subject as it relates to teaching the art of Aikido™, or Aiki...do (the way of aiki)
What does it say, when a group of people have not read and cannot explain what their founder discussed and defined as aiki and movement and yet continue to state that what they are doing is his way of aiki? By their own admission they have no part in the discussions of what Aiki...do originally was.

Kisshomaru did quite a bit to formulate a blank canvas; a bland non distinctive aikido form that could be used as a standard people could play off of. It is the logical explanation for Shioda, Osawa, Shirata, Tomiki, and all the old guard distancing themselves from this new art (Aikido™). Shirata's return (at O sensei's pleading) and what happened with his work being banned from hombu (work which highlighted O sensei's solo work and movement), fit in line with Tohei himself being distanced from Hombu. In the end, the broad brushed plan was to retain a bland distinctiveness that fit with what Kisshomaru himself perceived as his role as administrator. I think that this, combined with the poorly trained, young toughs, sent out with five or six years training as 5th and 6th dans all but sealed the deal.

It really isn't anyone's fault that Aiki...do is all but gone. The advent of Aikido™, divorced from the true words and practices of O sensei was a well designed and broad based plan, executed intentionally.

Can the two camps meet?
Just recently a Shihan in Japan (a close friend of Doshu) announced to his students that he was suspending aikido practice at his dojo because he had discovered aiki. His training (I am not at liberty to say in what) is now focusing on internal/aiki work to change his body. He later went to Doshu with excitement. Doshu, while complimenting the teacher on his improving skills, told him in no uncertain terms that he himself could never do this stuff "They would kill me. I have to do what my father did."

So if we see a divorce from the very top of the art, where does that leave us to discuss it? The heart of the discussion must, by its very nature, change to what the way of aiki has become versus what it was. Those pursuing Ueshiba's aiki, the way of aiki are going to have to struggle to find talking points to relate with those deeply immersed in the later, since functionally they are not going to be able to interact with the modern Aikido-ka. I suggest they do it less and less on the web, and reserve it for face-to-face encounters.
Why?
Clearly most of those in Aikido™, including the teachers, do not know what Ueshiba was talking about. Debates, while interesting, really only offers a venue to be heard and a chance to include unproven curiosities like "correct feeling" and "energy changing in the room" as having equal validity to the very real road map of concepts of heaven/ earth/ man, spiral energy, six directions, In/Yo ho, etc, that the founder was discussing. Thus the majoirty of the unknowing can contest/ argue without having to deliver. Where they cannot do that- is in person. There they must demonstrate; a) this is what he said b) this is what it means c) this is how it is done.

So if we reserve the meat of the argument for face to face discussions, then everyone gets to prove, disprove their ideas and correct feelings about things. And it usually ends in a friendly manner. Make no mistake though. We all know how this is ending up. Ueshiba's teachings always win...its no contest.
Why?
Because O sensei knew what he was talking about.
Those pursuing what is akin to a physical sport, with individualized overlays of western belief systems is not Ueshiba's Aiki…do and has no real part in what Aikido really is....or in fact ever was.

"Sensei, why can we not do what you do?"
Because you do not understand in yo
I suspect he would not recognize what most people are doing or talking about as having anything at all to do with him or his art.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-06-2011 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 10-06-2011, 02:08 PM   #135
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual Power

In that case what part of what you do would you call spiritual?

Regards.G.
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Old 10-06-2011, 02:46 PM   #136
DH
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Re: Spiritual Power

Didn't have time to write that the underpinnings of what aiki does to your mind/body infused and infomred his spiritual views, as was noted by his son and other biographers. It wasn't till recently we got to read that those underpinnings were in fact deeply rooted in his Daito ryu and his research into the Chinese classics. Those two -just like his physical and spiritual training blended and became one.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
In that case what part of what you do would you call spiritual?

Regards.G.
That is a very good question, Graham. and I take it very seriously and deeply. It shows itself in a more profound way in what I do and who I am in person. A critical difference though, is my budo did not infuse and inform my spirituality, but rather the other way round. And it is why I admire Ueshiba and what he did with his arts, and why I changed the focus of my arts dramatically as well. It also did something to the execution of them personally that many find profound and only I know why.
Dan
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Old 10-06-2011, 04:49 PM   #137
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Re: Spiritual Power

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I agree that is the case for those you mention. Thus they are not being honest with themselves. Maybe they are yet to find true self honesty.
We're talking about aikido as a spiritual practice. If that means anything at all, it means helping people develop such traits as self honesty.

So how does telling them to move "with correct feeling" help them do that?

Semantic debates bore me. Help me improve my aikido, or help me teach aikido more effectively.

Katherine
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Old 10-06-2011, 05:44 PM   #138
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual Power

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
We're talking about aikido as a spiritual practice. If that means anything at all, it means helping people develop such traits as self honesty.

So how does telling them to move "with correct feeling" help them do that?

Semantic debates bore me. Help me improve my aikido, or help me teach aikido more effectively.

Katherine
Not sure what you mean here.
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Old 10-07-2011, 01:09 PM   #139
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
We're talking about Aikido as a spiritual practice. If that means anything at all, it means helping people develop such traits as self honesty.

So how does telling them to move "with correct feeling" help them do that?

Semantic debates bore me. Help me improve my Aikido, or help me teach Aikido more effectively.

Katherine
Perhaps that is the whole spiritual practice: finding what what works for us and what doesn't, with out blame and recrimination.

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Old 10-07-2011, 01:54 PM   #140
DH
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Re: Spiritual Power

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Perhaps that is the whole spiritual practice: finding what what works for us and what doesn't, with out blame and recrimination.
Finding...?
We could call it "The twenty year technique of stumbling around trying to find, or discover and reproduce a feeling"...instead of using accurate teaching models with words and concepts to replicate it over and over, person to person, that have been around for generations.
I don't see how withholding information or not having any at all is spiritual. Isn't spirituality about enlightment? I'd rather enlighten people searching by showing them..or at least give them a candle.
"Move your insides!!"
"I just did after coffee this morning! Did you mean something else? I dunno it felt correct to me at the time.
There is a better way to communicate what is a classic model that produces correct feeling, Mary.
Dan
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Old 10-07-2011, 02:18 PM   #141
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
So how does telling them to move "with correct feeling" help them do that?
[Technical thread drift]

Hi Katherine -

Students are not told to move with correct feeling. Students are given exercises and drills, solo and partnered, to practice which foster coordination of mind and body, the result of which is correct feeling. Correct feeling isn't some magical state of being that's arrived at via esoteric practices. Correct feeling arises from and is polished and strengthened from lots of hard work and dedicated practice.

Best,

Ron

[/Technical thread drift]

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Old 10-07-2011, 02:40 PM   #142
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual Power

Ha, ha. Funny how correct feeling keeps going on this spiritual thread.

I like it. Maybe if I take your attention off of the word correct and more onto feeling.

Physically you can touch and thus feel. Spiritually you can pervade, reach, connect with and thus feel. So spiritually you have this ability whether you are used to it or not.

Physically you cannot see or feel principles but spiritually you can.

So now let me take you into the field of acting, good actors. They can create a whole charachter and be it. They can create emotions and display them for real. Isn't that interesting? For they can also throw that emotion away, turn it on or off at will.

Now spiritually you can do this with your own emotions too. You can feel an emotion physically but that is the result of the emotion that you feel. Spiritually you can feel it and change it.

When you feel a negative emotion or let's say an unwanted feeling how do you feel? Would you like to get rid of it?

Well spiritually you can let it go to centre and dissappear at which point you will feel good. Correct feeling cause by correct action.

Thus the two are connected both if you are talking physically or spiritually or even mentally.

A student holding another in Aikido could be asked how do you feel? He may say uncomfortable, he may say a bit wary of his other hand for I think he can hit me. Thus incorrect feeling. Thus that alone can tell him something is out, something is amiss. Now the teacher corrects the hold or positioning and asks again how do you feel. Now he feels good. Correct feeling. Once again the two go together.

It's goes with correct movement, correct positioning, correct application, correct distance, etc. But even though it is the result of such therefore it is the best teacher.

Correct feeling is always a good feeling.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-07-2011, 06:38 PM   #143
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Finding...?
We could call it "The twenty year technique of stumbling around trying to find, or discover and reproduce a feeling"...instead of using accurate teaching models with words and concepts to replicate it over and over, person to person, that have been around for generations.
I don't see how withholding information or not having any at all is spiritual. Isn't spirituality about enlightment? I'd rather enlighten people searching by showing them..or at least give them a candle.
"Move your insides!!"
"I just did after coffee this morning! Did you mean something else? I dunno it felt correct to me at the time.
There is a better way to communicate what is a classic model that produces correct feeling, Mary.
Dan
Dan, is this what you call a discussion?

I think a discussion involves minds that are open. I think in involves 2 or more parties that give and take.

When I read your writings I don't always understand them yet I am open to their possibilites. I don't need to make them wrong or to poke fun.

Do you even own a hakama?

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Old 10-07-2011, 09:51 PM   #144
DH
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Dan, is this what you call a discussion?

I think a discussion involves minds that are open. I think in involves 2 or more parties that give and take.

When I read your writings I don't always understand them yet I am open to their possibilites. I don't need to make them wrong or to poke fun.

Do you even own a hakama?
Geez...Well what's wrong with humor to make a point.
Take a poll and see how many would prefer actual words that impart physical changes that work every time compared to concepts that lack definition and by your own admission leave people to search for the feeling in practice. I can produce correct feeling at will under high stress with totally uncooperative people and teach people how to do it.....with words.

We are probably not arguing what you think correct feeling is but rather how to develop it and more importantly how well it gets developed.

I own three Hakama and hate wearing them.

Since we are on the topic. Your founder by his own words and the words of his son stated his budo informed his spirituality. His own words layed out a map of six direction awareness, heaven/earth/man, oppossing spiral energy, and breath power. How do you utilize that for correct feeling in line with your founders seminal work?
Dan
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Old 10-08-2011, 12:26 AM   #145
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Re: Spiritual Power

I will just throw this out there in case there is someone for whom it might be of value.

We are men and women of Budo here and that should mean that we are practical people. I think I can safely say that no matter the venue the question is, "Does this produce a real and practical result in the observable world and is that result one I value?"
Does your physical practice?
Does your technical practice?
Does your mental practice?
Does your spiritual practice?

I can't but think Ueshiba's results were a product of this kind of ongoing questioning from the moment he met Takeda and said, "I want some of that." I think this because he taught someone who taught someone who taught me. Sometimes you have to look your friend in the eye and ask, "How's that working out for you, really?"

How is Aikido™ (Aiki V3.3JPN) working out for you?

-Doug Walker
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Old 10-08-2011, 07:18 AM   #146
DH
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Re: Spiritual Power

Hi Doug
I think the point is that Aikido is working out just fine for the majority of people....till they meet someone with Aiki-in the art or out.
There is a reason Ueshiba said " Takeda opened my eyes... to true budo."
The same holds true today...including the "I want some of that..." comment.
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Old 10-08-2011, 10:49 AM   #147
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual Power

Bottom line is Spiritual power must lie in the realm of spirit.

Ability of spirit. True potential.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-08-2011, 03:20 PM   #148
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Re: Spiritual Power

Have all the "power" there you want. If it stays in a make believe place, it remains make believe.

The cause of suffering is delusion.

-Doug Walker
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Old 10-08-2011, 06:35 PM   #149
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Doug Walker wrote: View Post
Have all the "power" there you want. If it stays in a make believe place, it remains make believe.

The cause of suffering is delusion.
There is not make believe, it's here and now.

And it's all good.

Regards.g.
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:17 PM   #150
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Re: Spiritual Power

spiritual power.

For me personally, having had time to digest the thread is as simple as the flow of a river. ;-) (not that simple really is it?, but I love a paradox).

It is simply having the personal spiritual power to act decisively, honestly and with intent, when in the face of great danger, to you life or somebody elses. Because danger/fear, are paralysing.

It can be said as, "to be able to do the right thing".
you see a homeless person, and although you may be able to help in some small way, you ignore the reality and walk on by.

You see someone being beaten up in the street, you turn the other way and ignore it as if it is not happening, instead of doing something as simple as calling the police to say someone is being hurt can you please come and help, if you do not have the skills to break it up yourself, but you can still act.

If your intent is to act/help, and not ignore this reality, and to be able to do this with humility, and without a sense of personal gain, and the feeling of "this is the right thing to do", is this not true spiritual power.

Is this not what we teach in a very subtle way in the martial arts. Act even though you maybe putting yourself in danger, dont freeze and ignore the realities of life around you.

How simple this sounds, why is it so difficult in reality?

In peace

Andy B
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