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Old 10-05-2011, 12:14 AM   #26
kewms
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Re: The point of aikido osae

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
As a tangental point that I make about the severity in which we train and apply pins, consider the response as uke. Why would you resist a pin if you knew that pin could cause you physical harm? Consider that it only takes one technique, one time, to destroy your shoulder or your wrist.
Indeed. Nage has a responsibility to not damage their partner, but I think uke also has a responsibility to not be stupid.

While it's probably true that a wrist-focused pain-compliance nikkyo wouldn't stop a determined attacker, it's also true that I only have two wrists. Keeping them both intact is more important to me than proving that my partner's technique is incorrect.

Katherine
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Old 10-05-2011, 03:39 AM   #27
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: The point of aikido osae

I think it is important to note that an attacker probably does not recognise the pin until the moment it controls him. Such an attacker may then automatically try and resist, simply because he does not exactly know what is happening and perhaps cause damage to himself.
So you would require much less intend than you would in practise where the attacker is fully aware of what is about to happen and thus anticipates.

However that said, in practise I always say we practise for the opponent that is a tad bit better than we are, so we have to work hard to get things right.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 10-05-2011, 07:28 AM   #28
phitruong
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Re: The point of aikido osae

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Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
However that said, in practise I always say we practise for the opponent that is a tad bit better than we are, so we have to work hard to get things right.
i believed this is where koryu model worked better. if my understanding is correct, in koryu, uke usually was the teacher or senior person, which meant uke was better. and as the senior person, uke knew when, where and how to resist or comply to the pin to teach nage the right way and the wrong way; yet as the same time can protect himself/herself from overly excited nage. however, aikido model, at the moment, isn't the case. i kinda like the systema approach; they just hit you wherever you try to resist. that's another thing. aikido folks don't like to hit folks when they are down. rolling around with the systema folks and they will dispel that notion in a hurry. quite enlightening experience.
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:41 AM   #29
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: The point of aikido osae

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i believed this is where koryu model worked better. if my understanding is correct, in koryu, uke usually was the teacher or senior person, which meant uke was better. and as the senior person, uke knew when, where and how to resist or comply to the pin to teach nage the right way and the wrong way; yet as the same time can protect himself/herself from overly excited nage. however, aikido model, at the moment, isn't the case. i kinda like the systema approach; they just hit you wherever you try to resist. that's another thing. aikido folks don't like to hit folks when they are down. rolling around with the systema folks and they will dispel that notion in a hurry. quite enlightening experience.
IMHO, That kinda depends on the lineage you are in and how you practise. I agree that most often you will find highly stylized techniques and a set of rules on what you can or cannot do. (Lot of this has been discussed in the power threads).

Dan said it would be wise for teacher to take ukemi all the time. This works two fold, on one side you will feel what your student is trying to do, on the other hand you learn much more about your own control as uke (like you also mentioned). I have started doing just that to find out what happens... it has been interesting so far!

Before this derails too far I will stop here...sorry

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:08 PM   #30
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: The point of aikido osae

In Jujutsu you just rip the arm off; in fact, it could be half ripped off by the time he gets to the ground. In Aikido, you take them down and hold them in a controlled way from beginning to end - an altogether much harder task. At the end, you just sit there holding them. If your hold is good, and uke then tries to escape, then he will hurt or injure himself. To me, that's how it is.

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