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Old 09-23-2011, 02:09 AM   #76
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Dan

I have tried to find more on Aiki in yo ho, but nothing much came up. But from waht I have found:
Do I understand correctly it is about being able to become the link that neutralizes yin yang between your attacker and the universe ? Balance out yin yang? (do not know how to describe it better)

The power would be more about ability than actual strength...

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-23-2011, 02:31 AM   #77
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
The power would be more about ability than actual strength...
I think in general that's what 'real power' is, the ability to use what you have, regardless of who has more of it? I like the idea of being able to balance the yin and yang, though
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Old 09-23-2011, 02:56 AM   #78
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Well, it is how I interpret the word Aikido, the way of harmony and energy.
And harmony in the more oriental meaning (off course), which would mean to be able to do the right thing at the right moment, rather than 'our' western meaning of love, flowers, birds and the bees....

So Aikido is the way to be able to provide/absorb the appropriate amount of energy at the right time, or something along those lines.

In that context the concepts of kino nagare, kimusubi, maai and shi sei make much more sense. Well, at least I think so.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-23-2011, 07:49 AM   #79
gregstec
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
You didn't rattle my cage, Greg. You'd have to try a lot harder than that. Besides, I know where you live.
Yeah, but you cannot afford to drive here anymore, remember

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
1. I really would rather have seen all the kotodama posts in their own thread. I think it deserved its own and this one kept to the discussion of Ueshiba and power.
Come on, get real - thread drift is the mainstay here at Aikiweb

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
2. Did you really have to go and entice certain people to post? If you ignore certain things, IMO, it makes a thread better.
Just like someone else we know well I enjoy a good fight every once in a while and just cannot back down or ignore certain things once challenged

Greg
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:25 AM   #80
graham christian
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

If you're discussing power and O'Sensei all at once then how can you not mention the kotodama? Just read about his kiai for example let alone what I have already said.

However, I'll have that as my final word on this thread.

I'll spiral out of here.

Have fun.G.
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Old 09-23-2011, 02:00 PM   #81
gates
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Unless either of you can make a credible argument and witness for kotodama producing real power- can you move your off topic discussion elsewhere please.
Greg it appears you agree it doesn't...so why are we discussing it still?
Thanks
Dan
In my "My Past Way of Budo" by Nakazono in the chapter entitled "About Power" Nakazono discusses occurrences of unusual powers, Kiai causing unusual supernatural disturbances.

However I think Dan is perfectly correct, discussions of "power" from the perspective of kototama and other spiritual practices is why off the mark. The objective of such practices is not in trying to gain special powers, it is a search for an absolute truth, it has nothing to do with domination over others. The objective, in part, aiming to reduce the dichotomy of self and other, as such anything which may bolster of ego is rejected.

"Seeking to be superior is a mistake right from the start. If you get it, it will destroy you. It is twisted, unbalanced vibration for human life; not the pure, final power." (My Past Way of Budo, About Power, Nakazono)

Quite obviously O'Sensei knew this too. Dan is making an argument that you need to have proven abilities, talk the talk, walk the walk. Fair enough. Personally I don't have a problem with searching for power and abilities, within themselves.

However, just as Dan suggests that seeking the spiritual aspects within Aikido without having tangible physical abilities is lacking and boarder line useless, I would argue that having only the physical abilities without a proven ability to demonstrate a greater understanding of the metaphysical aspects is equally lacking and boarder line useless.

Keith

Enjoy the journey
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Old 09-23-2011, 03:56 PM   #82
DH
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Dan
I have tried to find more on Aiki in yo ho, but nothing much came up. But from waht I have found:
Do I understand correctly it is about being able to become the link that neutralizes yin yang between your attacker and the universe ? Balance out yin yang? (do not know how to describe it better)
The power would be more about ability than actual strength...
You won't find anything.
Aiki is a method, resolving in yo within and without you.
It is more complex than the typical nonsense of doing things; like timing and power displays between you and an attacker.
Aiki begins in you, is perfected within you, otherwise everything you try to do with an opponent that creates kuzushi on contact will fail.
The type of strength produced is not what most people understand and or know how to develop, and for that matter know how to cope with. The dilapidated state of Sagawa-where he couldn't open a jar-is not a requirement. Most people I meet still have this weird notion that "soft" means evading or running away.
a) that is not soft, and it is unsupported
b) it does not exhibit yin yang
They just don't know how to produce power without flexing muscle, so they opt for that evading stuff and call that "Soft."
Interestingly, and in keeping with the tenor of the thread, the world outside of aikido, has tracked that type of understanding for hundreds of years and have discredited it as ...not being part of the "soft" arts. They also recognized that it was low level, that many can do it- as it requires no serious training or changing of the body. The changing of the body is the cornerstone of the soft arts and here we go again why O sensei said no one can do what I do, because you do not understand In yo ho.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 09-23-2011, 04:41 PM   #83
DH
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Keith Gates wrote: View Post
In my "My Past Way of Budo" by Nakazono in the chapter entitled "About Power" Nakazono discusses occurrences of unusual powers, Kiai causing unusual supernatural disturbances.
I believe that these things, along with Ueshiba's stories of golden rays, seeing bullet ki before the bulletts, bulbs flashing, and mysterious rumblings from the mountain every evening at Nine, are more Japanese myth making. In fact Kisshomaru tried to make corrections on these matters agreeing that they are exagerations of fact and other times made up out of whole cloth.
I dismiss these stories out of hand.

That said
Quote:
However I think Dan is perfectly correct, discussions of "power" from the perspective of kototama and other spiritual practices is way off the mark. The objective of such practices is not in trying to gain special powers, it is a search for an absolute truth, it has nothing to do with domination over others. The objective, in part, aiming to reduce the dichotomy of self and other, as such anything which may bolster of ego is rejected.

"Seeking to be superior is a mistake right from the start. If you get it, it will destroy you. It is twisted, unbalanced vibration for human life; not the pure, final power." (My Past Way of Budo, About Power, Nakazono)
Cough..nice!
I think Ueshiba's understanding of Kotodama is most likely in keeping with his study of Aiki in yo ho where the duality of In yo dissolves all conflict within and without. This is what he spoke to most often. I also believe that most today have no clue whatsoever as to how these things connected in his life.

Isn't it interesting that the Omoto sect used him; for validation many times and pointed to him. Deguchi's comments are often about How and why Ueshiba should do this or that because of his...wait for it...power. and his recognition as a famous budoka. To deny that is to either not have read the histories, or to be partaking in more modern myth making on Ueshiba's behalf.
The real question is, within Omoto as a ...cough...source of power. Why was he different?
I have an answer for you.
It came from your founder
Aiki in yo ho
And that came from Daito ryu.

Quote:
However, just as Dan suggests that seeking the spiritual aspects within Aikido without having tangible physical abilities is lacking and border-line useless,
I would argue that having only the physical abilities without a proven ability to demonstrate a greater understanding of the metaphysical aspects is equally lacking and border-line useless.
Keith
Had he not been trained with Daito ryu's Aiki in yo ho, Ueshiba would have been no more than any of the other people in the sect. He would not have been saved, he would have been arrested, and we would not be here talking about him.
He would have been a nobody who broke the law and got imprisoned.

Again I remind you it was he himself and not me...who recognized that this art would never be seen as a true budo without power.
Incidently, I am reasonably convinced that my ideas of what power is, are not and have not, been displayed, written about or seen much in aikido since Ueshiba.

In closing I have never said that seeking the spiritual aspects within Aikido without having tangible physical abilities is lacking and border-line useless. You said I said that. People will do what they want and pursue what they want and I think all of it is fine. They also are held accountable for their decisions. In this case they just need to be very cautious in calling what they do budo...They cannot do one thing and expect to borrow off of someone elses reputation and not be called on it by budo people from within and without of the art of Aikido. Some practices are just not budo.
Why?
Because according to the arts founder..
It will not be recognized as a true budo and will not taken seriously without power.
That's not my idea either, it's O sensei's.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-23-2011 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 09-23-2011, 05:14 PM   #84
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Thanks for taking time to explain a bit further.
food for thought; that's for sure. I do not expect to comprehend this after reading (about) it once or twice, or even ten times.

I am afraid I am still a bit stuck in the external form and trying to find out why sometimes it works and more often it does not.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-23-2011, 05:27 PM   #85
gregstec
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You won't find anything.
Aiki is a method, resolving in yo within and without you.
It is more complex than the typical nonsense of doing things; like timing and power displays between you and an attacker.
Aiki begins in you, is perfected within you, otherwise everything you try to do with an opponent that creates kuzushi on contact will fail.
The type of strength produced is not what most people understand and or know how to develop, and for that matter know how to cope with. The dilapidated state of Sagawa-where he couldn't open a jar-is not a requirement. Most people I meet still have this weird notion that "soft" means evading or running away.
a) that is not soft, and it is unsupported
b) it does not exhibit yin yang
They just don't know how to produce power without flexing muscle, so they opt for that evading stuff and call that "Soft."
Interestingly, and in keeping with the tenor of the thread, the world outside of aikido, has tracked that type of understanding for hundreds of years and have discredited it as ...not being part of the "soft" arts. They also recognized that it was low level, that many can do it- as it requires no serious training or changing of the body. The changing of the body is the cornerstone of the soft arts and here we go again why O sensei said no one can do what I do, because you do not understand In yo ho.

Cheers
Dan
Just back from beer misogi in the hot tub - since I have not been able to do that for about six weeks since my foot injuries, it felt good! - anyway, I am enlightened now

IMO, there are two domains involved with an interaction - internal and external. I see soft as a joining of the external within the internal self and then self leads from there and there is no more external, it is all one within self, and of course, self has to be balanced, and that is where in-yo ho comes into play. Sorry, if I am coming across somewhat esoteric, but I did just say I have been enlightened in the hot tub In other words, Nage receives the attack and connects to Uke's center and then leads both by moving himself with NO muscle tension - he does not dance around Uke by sliding or shifting with the energy in an external manner.

Sounds pretty neat, let's see if we can come up a Japanese term to describe that - OK, I got it, since it is a joining inside (which is Nage) let's start with Ai, and since it is joining with external energy, let's call that Ki - so, how about Aiki? and if you want to make it into a way of life, how about Aikido

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 09-23-2011 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 09-23-2011, 05:56 PM   #86
phitruong
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

warning: thread rift

Aiki in yo ho

that just sounded obscene when you spoke that outloud, especially, when you were within earshot of your wife who then yelled at you "i am not yo ho! and you ain't gonna key anything in me! and guess where you will be sleeping tonight!"

Please resume schedule discussion of power and remember to stay away from yo ho!
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Old 09-23-2011, 05:59 PM   #87
DH
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
warning: thread rift

Aiki in yo ho

that just sounded obscene when you spoke that outloud, especially, when you were within earshot of your wife who then yelled at you "i am not yo ho! and you ain't gonna key anything in me! and guess where you will be sleeping tonight!"

Please resume schedule discussion of power and remember to stay away from yo ho!
Old joke...heard many tmes at seminars.
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:44 PM   #88
DH
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

The attempts to redefine aikido as ai..ki..do was a recent corruption.
Aiki..do is congruent with
Ken...do
Ju...do
Iai...do.
Nothing more.
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Old 09-23-2011, 11:25 PM   #89
gates
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Dan, my intention is not to put words into your mouth, so sorry if that is how it came across. I understand that you haven't said it directly, how I have distilled it, but I'd maintain that the sentiment that you give here on Aikiweb is consistent with this distillation. It seems to me even what you appear to be stating here is consistent with that line of thinking. That is: without power Aikido (presumably physical - tangible demonstrable power) cannot be recognized as a true budo. 'Some practices are just not budo' and 'won't be taken seriously as such'. I agree wholeheartedly, but I also go one step further and feel that the spiritual ideology inherent in Aikido that came from Oomoto, Kototama, and other sources are important if you want to study Aikido as a whole in the way it was intended to be. And that these aspects are just as critical to the whole as the physical components.

For example:
I take something from 'A' and something from 'B' mix them up producing 'C'. I now teach you 'C'. Do you have everything contained within the original forms of 'A' & 'B'? - Nope, at best you get 'C' which holds something of A&B but also loses something in the translation.

The original 'C' I have holds everything from 'A' and 'B' within it, but the 'C' you have does not. Now if I taught you 'A' and 'B' and let you mix them up yourself then maybe you would get something closer to my 'C'. (note Inoue)

But that didn't happen I taught you 'C' not 'AB', you can look and can see the difference. In this way it becomes natural that people wanting the real 'C' try to search back to the sources, and/or add a little 'D' and 'E' in an attempt to synthesize a closer to original 'C'. With each generation the mix changes a little and it slowly drifts away from the original. It is impossible to replicate the formula to perfectly make a copy of the original.

(replace A - daito ryu, B - spiritual enlightenment, C - Aikido)

Dan if you feel you have the special ingredient to give 'C' back its martial potency that is wonderful, provided it still does the other things it says on the tin.
Keith

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Old 09-24-2011, 12:14 AM   #90
Ernesto Lemke
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
warning: thread rift

Aiki in yo ho

that just sounded obscene when you spoke that outloud, especially, when you were within earshot of your wife who then yelled at you "i am not yo ho! and you ain't gonna key anything in me! and guess where you will be sleeping tonight!"

Please resume schedule discussion of power and remember to stay away from yo ho!
Maybe old but new to me! ROFL Thanks Phi!

Ernesto
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:50 AM   #91
DH
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Dan, my intention is not to put words into your mouth, so sorry if that is how it came across. I understand that you haven't said it directly, how I have distilled it, but I'd maintain that the sentiment that you give here on Aikiweb is consistent with this distillation. It seems to me even what you appear to be stating here is consistent with that line of thinking. That is: without power Aikido (presumably physical - tangible demonstrable power) cannot be recognized as a true budo. 'Some practices are just not budo' and 'won't be taken seriously as such'. I agree wholeheartedly, but I also go one step further and feel that the spiritual ideology inherent in Aikido that came from Oomoto, Kototama, and other sources are important if you want to study Aikido as a whole in the way it was intended to be. And that these aspects are just as critical to the whole as the physical components.
Keith
I agree whole heartedly, Keith. Keep in mind I did not start the thread to discuss the whole of aikido. It is called Aikido: Discussions of power. There is no physical power in the kotodama for Budo.
They can't even agree who knows what kotodama is. I recall a recent exchange/review of one fellows work that spanned twenty years being dismissed as weak and poorly researched. I avoid discussions of kotodama as I believe it is about as productive as getting in the middle of a debate with Catholics, Baptists and Pentecostals about the Bible and the tenets of the faith. Included in that being the re-writes and overwriting of personal beliefs onto an otherwise established faith.
You can of course research the understanding of where and how Asians drew correlations between their cosmology and their physical understanding, and run headlong into researchers with all sorts of opinions and no physical power or ability to neutralize anything meaningful or control even a whisper of real force. So where is the purpose in arguing the depth of a Westerners understanding of an archaic Asian belief system when both Asian and Westerners are unable to demonstrate their "understanding" in any meaningful way in the realm of Budo, the point of the discussion.

You are correct that myself and others, can help with the physical aspects that will give Aikido-ka a much better understanding of in yo ho that their founder purseud. That...is my interest. I also think that will give them a better foundation for understanding the cosmology he referred to in his writings.
Example again
「合気とは、言霊の妙用であります。言霊の妙用は一霊四魂三元八力の分霊分身である。」
"Aiki is the mysterious action of "kotodama" ("word souls"). "Kotodama" is the understanding of the spirit and the body through Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki."
Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as an active force, a quiet force, a pulling force, a loosening force, a splitting force, a combining force, a melting force and a congealing force (you can see that each "in" force has a matching "yo" force).
And here we see a similar use to desribing force to the ICMA discussions of Jins. Interestingly Ueshiba also uses the equal to the word/idea of intent infused movement.

Cheers
Dan.

Last edited by DH : 09-24-2011 at 08:04 AM.
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Old 09-24-2011, 10:22 AM   #92
gates
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Interestingly Ueshiba also uses the equal to the word/idea of intent infused movement.

Cheers
Dan.
Dan,
Are to able to clarify/expand on this a little?

Kind Regards
Keith

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Old 09-24-2011, 11:47 AM   #93
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
They can't even agree who knows what kotodama is. I recall a recent exchange/review of one fellows work that spanned twenty years being dismissed as weak and poorly researched. I avoid discussions of kotodama as I believe it is about as productive as getting in the middle of a debate with Catholics, Baptists and Pentecostals about the Bible and the tenets of the faith.
Replace Kotodama with IP/IT/IS.

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Old 09-25-2011, 04:37 AM   #94
DH
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Dan,
Are to able to clarify/expand on this a little?

Kind Regards
Keith
Here? No, Not really. It's difficult enough to teach intent in person. Suffice to say it is an old and established way to train the mind/body to connect and move and in so doing your movement, and the effect it has on others, is more profound.
And contrary to Chris Hein's dig, it's pretty much universally embraced by everyone who is truly doing internals.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 09-25-2011, 08:37 AM   #95
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

No worries Dan,
The sentence just didn't quite make sense to me.
Keith

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