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Old 09-20-2011, 05:34 PM   #26
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

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Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Horse people have been working towards this for years.
Interesting thing is we are finding out that horses don't need shoes even the ones who work on concrete and asphalt every day.

http://www.thehorseshoof.com/success_Houston1.html

So hey why not people too?
I had my Morgan mare for 21 years (she was 8 when I got her, and had been greenbroke and unshod on pasture all her life till then), and the first couple years I had her, I kept her shod, used boriums and rubber in the winter, and the farrier trimmed and re-set every 8 weeks. She was strictly a trail horse, but had to travel on pavement to get to the trails and back. I always had to pay careful attention to her feet to make sure she wasn't getting any fungal infections or other nasties under those shoes -- especially the winter rubber pads -- and that she wasn't picking up pebbles between hoof and shoe. Then there was the danger of snagging a shoe on a root or rock and having the metal twisted -- which can lead to terrible injuries to the horse.

That last thing did eventually happen - she snagged a shoe when we were in the woods. It was so twisted she couldn't walk on it, so I had to pull the shoe and walk at her side 5 miles home. I was surprised to see that her unshod hoof was no worse for the wear after that, so instead of replacing the missing shoe I had the farrier pull the other 3. We never went back to shoes after that, even in winter - just had the farrier trim on schedule. She never had a problem all the rest of her life. No thrush, no splits, no leg problems.

As for humans' shoes, I do think that they typically do not conform to the foot or even the human body in a natural way; rather, they force the foot to fit the shoe, and they affect posture, stance and how weight and force are distributed.
So, the 5-toe minimalist shoes that are hitting the markets now might be a real departure from the way people have thought about footwear for centuries. I'll be interested to see whether this is a fad or an enduring trend. Janet is one of the "foot" soldiers who will advance the front line for the trend.

P.S. Phi, Janet didn't say she only had 3 pairs of shoes; she said she had only 3 pairs of shoes she could wear.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 09-20-2011 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 09-20-2011, 06:27 PM   #27
Janet Rosen
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
P.S. Phi, Janet didn't say she only had 3 pairs of shoes; she said she had only 3 pairs of shoes she could wear.
LOL! OK I admit I have a couple of pair I don't wear but plan to give away and then there are the three pair of boots I can't bear to part with....

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-20-2011, 10:10 PM   #28
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post

That last thing did eventually happen - she snagged a shoe when we were in the woods. It was so twisted she couldn't walk on it, so I had to pull the shoe and walk at her side 5 miles home. I was surprised to see that her unshod hoof was no worse for the wear after that, so instead of replacing the missing shoe I had the farrier pull the other 3. We never went back to shoes after that, even in winter - just had the farrier trim on schedule. She never had a problem all the rest of her life. No thrush, no splits, no leg problems.
A similar story is what led me to learning more about hoof health and barefoot only hoof care and eventually led me to becoming a professional barefoot trimmer. Weirdly enough that path eventually led me to aikido...

So I mentioned these shoes to my chiropractor today who was very enthusiastically positive about them. He said they really are good for back problems. It seems that the tendons etc in our toes lead to our backs and that as our toes flex and bend on natural (not flat) surfaces those tendons etc inform our back muscles how to stabilize our bodies properly leading to less strain. So these shoes that allow our toes to flex and bend individually in a more natural way have a lot of benefit for our whole body health.

I think I'll be giving them a try in the near future.
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Old 09-21-2011, 09:31 AM   #29
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

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Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
So I mentioned these shoes to my chiropractor today who was very enthusiastically positive about them. He said they really are good for back problems. It seems that the tendons etc in our toes lead to our backs and that as our toes flex and bend on natural (not flat) surfaces those tendons etc inform our back muscles how to stabilize our bodies properly leading to less strain. So these shoes that allow our toes to flex and bend individually in a more natural way have a lot of benefit for our whole body health.
That is very interesting. It sounds sort of like the reasoning behind injury prevention and rehabilitation regimens like "The 7 Minute Rotator Cuff Solution", which in simple terms is that the key to musculoskeletal health is getting and keeping the small muscles engaged, and not letting a few big muscles do all the work all the time. The small muscles of the rotator cuff are essential to stabilizing the shoulder and preventing injury, but they become both weaker and slower if they're not engaged on a regular basis -- which leads to vulnerability in the shoulder joint. It sounds like this principle also applies to other areas of the body, and that minimalist shoes could be a big help.
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Old 09-21-2011, 11:27 AM   #30
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

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That is very interesting. It sounds sort of like the reasoning behind injury prevention and rehabilitation regimens like "The 7 Minute Rotator Cuff Solution", which in simple terms is that the key to musculoskeletal health is getting and keeping the small muscles engaged, and not letting a few big muscles do all the work all the time. The small muscles of the rotator cuff are essential to stabilizing the shoulder and preventing injury, but they become both weaker and slower if they're not engaged on a regular basis -- which leads to vulnerability in the shoulder joint.
Slightly off-topic, but this is also the argument for the use of free weights, rather than weight machines, in strength training. While the "prime movers" do most of the work, free weights engage the smaller muscles in the equally important job of balancing and stabilizing the load.

Katherine
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Old 09-22-2011, 12:28 AM   #31
Michael Varin
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
Slightly off-topic, but this is also the argument for the use of free weights, rather than weight machines, in strength training. While the "prime movers" do most of the work, free weights engage the smaller muscles in the equally important job of balancing and stabilizing the load.
And coming back slightly on topic, it is also an argument for proper posture and alignment, which are both crucial in ensuring that the small muscles stabilize properly and maintain a true balance.

I feel that Five Fingers help your body do this naturally from the feet up.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 09-22-2011, 01:20 PM   #32
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

I got inspired by this discussion and started looking around for minimalist shoes for winter, and I found the following very interesting review of a pair of minimalist custom mocs. There's a discussion of something called the Munson last that may be of interest here.

So I went to the Russell website (http://www.russellmoccasin.com/new_p..._footwear.html, and it turns out they went into production with this idea. So, now there are three models. Maaan, would I love a pair of the Thula Thulas.

Another one I have my eye on for cold weather: the Soft Star Phoenix boot.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:08 PM   #33
Janet Rosen
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

Thanks for links, Mary!

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:56 PM   #34
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

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So, now there are three models. Maaan, would I love a pair of the Thula Thulas.
wow! that's a lot of money for a pair shoes! minimalist at that. i think i'll rather go with the old tire approach.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/162471...f_an_old_tire/
http://www.grannysstore.com/Holistic...re_Sandals.htm

i got a couple of old car tires around here somewhere. for cold weather, i'll just put on some wool socks.
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Old 09-22-2011, 05:09 PM   #35
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

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i got a couple of old car tires around here somewhere. for cold weather, i'll just put on some wool socks.
With respect, Phi, you don't know what cold weather is.
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:19 AM   #36
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

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With respect, Phi, you don't know what cold weather is.
but i do. i mentioned i was a farm boy before. i lived in northern Minnesota for a number of years. even spent a year in Fargo, ND which also known as the gateway to North Pole.
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Old 09-23-2011, 10:02 AM   #37
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

lol yes with winter coming on and the fact that I work around horses I was kinda wondering what options there might be in minimal shoes for winter. Then I came across these.
Probably not what I will buy for my first pair as they are a bit pricey but I'm glad the option is out there.
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Old 09-23-2011, 03:16 PM   #38
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

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Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
lol yes with winter coming on and the fact that I work around horses I was kinda wondering what options there might be in minimal shoes for winter. Then I came across these.
Probably not what I will buy for my first pair as they are a bit pricey but I'm glad the option is out there.
Cherie, if you get a pair of those, I predict that reports of "Sasquatch" sightings will go up in the Greater Pittsburgh area.

They do look solid and comfy, but I wonder whether there might be a disadvantage to having the toes separated like that. One of the benefits to wearing proper-fitting, conventional, insulated snow boots, is that the toes collectively keep each other warm within a cocoon of warm air. Separated toes... even though they have an insulated shell around them, they are relying on their individual heat to maintain warmth -- a challenge, especially for the smaller toes with lesser mass and circulation. I kinda like wearing thick, loose, moisture-wicking socks in a pair of pak boots with wiggle room in the toe area.

And, don't forget the benefit of force distribution that "un-toed" boots have when you're working around horses.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 09-23-2011 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 09-23-2011, 03:54 PM   #39
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

By the way. I meant "Sasquatch" TRACK sightings! But you probably knew that.
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Old 09-23-2011, 09:49 PM   #40
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

LOL yeah I was picturing the look on peoples faces when they come in my yard and see those tracks on the ground.

Anyway I ordered a pair of the KSOs today and can't wait to try them out. My boss is cool with me wearing them to work which is primarily what I will be doing. No I don't think I want to wear them out in the snow and winter if I'm out there for long although some runners have done so. Ill be sticking to my insulated waterproof boots and wool socks for outdoors stuff. But if they make being on my feet at work for hours at a time easier on my joints then they are worth it.
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Old 09-24-2011, 05:22 AM   #41
Michael Varin
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

I think a certain amount of reason must be exercised in the wearing of minimalist footwear.

Unless you have specifically conditioned yourself, Five Fingers probably shouldn't be worn in frigid weather or around one thousand plus pound creatures.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:28 AM   #42
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

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I think a certain amount of reason must be exercised in the wearing of minimalist footwear.

Unless you have specifically conditioned yourself, Five Fingers probably shouldn't be worn in frigid weather or around one thousand plus pound creatures.
gee ya think?

Not planning to wear them to the barns. But I do happen to have an indoor job as well that requires me to be on my feet for 5-6 hours at a stretch sometimes for up to 10 hours on a given day. No worries I do have a measure of common sense.
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Old 09-30-2011, 02:48 PM   #43
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

So I got the new Vibram KSOs yesterday and had them on and off a bunch of times and went walking around the grocery store. These are gonna take some getting used to. I love how I feel moving in them. But my pinky toes are not so sure about this being separated from their friends bit. Thinking maybe if I order them in the future I'll go a size bigger even though my measurement fell just inside the upper limit of this size's range. What can I say... I have fat toes.
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Old 09-30-2011, 03:23 PM   #44
Janet Rosen
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

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Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
So I got the new Vibram KSOs yesterday and had them on and off a bunch of times and went walking around the grocery store. These are gonna take some getting used to. I love how I feel moving in them. But my pinky toes are not so sure about this being separated from their friends bit. Thinking maybe if I order them in the future I'll go a size bigger even though my measurement fell just inside the upper limit of this size's range. What can I say... I have fat toes.
Congrats! That's the model I' ve got.
On one foot my big toe is just a tad cramped, not enough for me to have switched up a size, just a bit more compression than ideal.
I'm driving through a town w/ an REI tomorrow so plan to stop in and see if they have the KSO trek and/or the new boots and will ask to try them one size up just to see...esp as I will likely want a layer of toed socks w/ winter coming.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-30-2011, 04:06 PM   #45
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

I highly recommend this book to anyone with foot trouble, knee trouble, hip trouble, or back trouble -- not just women.

http://www.amazon.com/Every-Womans-G...7416622&sr=8-1

Katy Bowman is a bio-mechanical scientist who focuses on proper alignment and relaxation as a means to restoring proper function in the body. Her blog is also very good at www.alignedandwell.com.
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Old 09-30-2011, 05:52 PM   #46
Janet Rosen
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

I've been using "The New Rules of Posture" a inside to outside approach by a Rolfer since Kaizen Taki the Systema instructor recommended it.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-30-2011, 10:21 PM   #47
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

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Congrats! That's the model I' ve got.
On one foot my big toe is just a tad cramped, not enough for me to have switched up a size, just a bit more compression than ideal.
I'm driving through a town w/ an REI tomorrow so plan to stop in and see if they have the KSO trek and/or the new boots and will ask to try them one size up just to see...esp as I will likely want a layer of toed socks w/ winter coming.
Yeah now way would I get socks on in this pair. But I plan to use them just for indoors anyway so it's not an issue at the moment.

Wore them to work tonight. 4 hours on my feet working in a kitchen. Best traction on that floor of anything I have ever worn to work. My knees and ankles didn't get sore (I'm usually limping within 2-3 hours of starting work) and the minor discomfort from the newness of the shoes totally disappeared when I had work to distract me.

I turned a couple of the tightest toe pockets inside out right before work and found there was a lot of excess materiel where the seams were so I trimmed them back and that helped a lot.

My feet did start to complain after about the 4 hours but it felt rather like just muscles that were not used to working so much. I noticed a huge difference in how I stand and move and all to the good.

So far I really like these.
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Old 09-30-2011, 11:34 PM   #48
Janet Rosen
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

YAY!

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-01-2011, 04:43 AM   #49
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

Recognize that tired feet muscles feeling!

I've found that nowadays that my feet are much stronger than before that even wearing normal shoes my feet get less tired. I think of the inside of the shoe as the "ground" that I stand on...

kvaak
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Old 10-02-2011, 09:59 PM   #50
Janet Rosen
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Re: Minimal Shoes and My Knee Pain

Anybody have any experience with Merrell's Barefoot Power Glove?
I need something for cold rainy weather and the Vibram 5Finger boots are $160, more than I can afford....

Janet Rosen
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