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Old 09-22-2011, 02:54 AM   #26
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

As I understand it, in yo ho is the Japanese translation of ying-yang. But more then that, it refers to change from state A to B - specifically a bodily change.

As for 8 powers -

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Old 09-22-2011, 03:01 AM   #27
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Chinese: Yin yang
Japanese- in yo ho (method) yes it is a method.
By definition it is not about power dominating...
But you would have to understand what in yo ho means.
Which was more or less my point.

As I stated
Teachers in aikido don't get what their own founder was saying. It's not their fault, apparently it just isn't taught anymore, hence Ikeda going to Karate and Daito ryu to get it, others going elsewhere. I have read just about everything in English and it isn't there. It isn't in the interviews with the arts teachers. I now know the translators didn't know how to translate it correctly. They don't know the meaning of his terms, and they still don't understand his contextual referencing. As it was then, it is now, to the modern teachers...it's pretty much gobbledegook.

Some of us from...outside, are helping to fix this. Outside of Aikido -as aikido teachers attending seminars with teachers from other arts like the ICMA are finding out- this stuff is known. As one group of ICMA guys said to some aikido teachers: "Your art is a soft art, how come you guys don't know this stuff, what have you been doing?"

So we are trying hard to get the word out to aikido-ka, by reading it to them (their own translations are incorrect), teaching them where it came from, what it means, why their founder kept talking about it over and over and over and show them the same quotes from across the sea. Then we show them how to do it, and why it was important. So far it seems the teachers like it and find it important. Plus they get reading suggestions to awaken them to a world their founder was pointing to that they thought was indecipherable. It's one of the benefits of going out to learn.

As for in yo ho, as has been pointed out (but only to certain teachers) in watching Ueshiba videos....(and as Sagawa said) "You can see it instantly."
Hell, at certain points it was like Ueshiba was daring you. "Hey...look at me!" it was so obvious.
Dan
I have responded to the first paragraph already so I need not repeat it.

I have said that most teachers said they didn't understand much of what he was saying at the time but that doesn't mean to me they didn't come to understand much of what he said.

I also disagree with the picture painted that he talked non stop about ip all the time if much at all.

All I see from what you say is daito ryu as per Takeda. To me that is far from Aikido as per O'Sensei.

Takeda had great skills and knowledge of internal arts. That's a different person and a different art. If he was to walk in most dojos he would probably handle all with ease no different to back then for he was exceptional at what he did. Still that is not Aikido.

On the other hand O'Sensei could enter any daito ryu place no doubt and do the same using his Aikido. Because he became an exceptional exponent too.

The only connection I see is historical.

People who learn these daito ryu skills or indeed bagua skills or whatever and find it helps them in their Aikido is fine by me. Nothing wrong with that.

As for teachers or Aikidoka for that matter then seeing videos and understanding them better and seeing things they hadn't seen before well I would expect that to be the case. Nothing new there to me and in fact I'm glad to hear it.

How many times have I heard students say out of the blue' ahh, so thats what ueshiba meant' or 'ahh so that's what he was doing, it's too simple!'

It shouldn't be an astounding event and for many I would say has probably happened on numerous occasions.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:17 AM   #28
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Ikeda was taught by Tada; not just anybody. Still he needed to look elsewhere...
I think Dan is referring to Hiroshi Ikeda, not Masatomi Ikeda.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:17 AM   #29
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
To what extent would teaching method be of influence, and culture?

Ikeda was taught by Tada; not just anybody. Still he needed to look elsewhere...
Would that be because the teachings of Tada were not understood by Ikeda or this subject was not taught explicitly? And, did Ueshiba 'teach' this? From what I understand he showed, dared to see, but never taught it. Or is this just about semantics?
Semantics I would say Tim. We can all look elsewhere and not see what was right in front of us. The Aikido word for yin yang would be harmony would it not? (in plain english) A much talked about thing by Ueshiba.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:19 AM   #30
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
As I understand it, in yo ho is the Japanese translation of ying-yang. But more then that, it refers to change from state A to B - specifically a bodily change.

As for 8 powers -

More like eight directions to me Bob.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:30 AM   #31
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

The aha erlebnis is very recognisable.

What makes me wonder is why I am not able to find that missing piece of info myself? Funny thing is that one should let go of perfecting the self form....this would make the wish to make your technique perfect (and search for missing pieces) obsolete.

In this light I can somehow understand why it is so hard to really 'get' Aikido. I get the feeling that the analytical (western) approach fails miserably here.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-22-2011, 06:58 AM   #32
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Graham: why ask you to clarify?

Because a gnomic little interjection like that doesn't really come to grips with the discussion. It's like my 8 year-old saying "Yeah, but what about string theory, huh?"

Perhaps Chris does understand the reference. I'd certainly like to be enlightened as to what they are and how they relate to Dan's thesis.

And when you add "just maybe," to your comment, I infer that you're implying that you believe they are indeed related, and that you think the relationship is obvious.

So please explain. Thank you.

Patrick
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Old 09-22-2011, 07:04 AM   #33
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
More like eight directions to me Bob.

Regards.G.
Actually, I believe it refers to the 'four main powers' (peng, lu, ji, and) and the four additives powers thereof.

Eg: http://www.taijigongfu.com/8energies.html

Quote:
Eight historically recorded "powers" or methods. This word, powers, is a poor translation of the original word in Mandarin, "JIN" which has many meanings of course, some of which relate especially to martial arts.

In the martial arts, JIN means basically, power. It can also mean simply strength as in someone has a lot of strength. In the case of internal arts the meaning of "Jin" that we specifically use is that of a trained or cultivated strength or power. This refers to the power (or even utility) that manifests in a practitioner due to training, or simply in a specialized manner.
What do you think 8 powers refers to, Graham?
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Old 09-22-2011, 07:28 AM   #34
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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The approaches I have seen on these exercise have all been strictly external and focused on strengthening and loosening up muscle and joints. Now I believe that is part of what they were intended for, but I also think there is more to it that addresses internal development as well. However, without knowing what should be happening internally, that part of the exercise will be lost.
For several years I have trained in lineage of Nobuyoshi Tamura. He often did very extensive aiki taiso (about 40 minutes). Never explained anything. I have also practised under Suganuma Sensei, same story. How can you expect your students (some of which eventually become teachers) to understand? It is like to them these exercises are common knowledge (i.e. know what they are for), while for 'us' they are not and are basically left in the dark.

Sometimes I think this intentional...

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-22-2011, 08:30 AM   #35
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
For several years I have trained in lineage of Nobuyoshi Tamura. He often did very extensive aiki taiso (about 40 minutes). Never explained anything. I have also practised under Suganuma Sensei, same story. How can you expect your students (some of which eventually become teachers) to understand? It is like to them these exercises are common knowledge (i.e. know what they are for), while for 'us' they are not and are basically left in the dark.

Sometimes I think this intentional...
Maybe so - but maybe they DON'T know either because it was never explained to them as well

Greg
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Old 09-22-2011, 08:43 AM   #36
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

somehow I do not think so....

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-22-2011, 08:52 AM   #37
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Semantics I would say Tim. We can all look elsewhere and not see what was right in front of us. The Aikido word for yin yang would be harmony would it not? (in plain english) A much talked about thing by Ueshiba.

Regards.G.
No, the Japanese words for yin/yang are the two words in Japanese explained already in this thread. Yin and yang are two separate things and as I'm sure you know within medicine, the natural world, and yes in martial arts different phenomenon are ascribed as either yin or yang influenced...while harmony may be a desired state of balance in which a given thing is neither too yin nor too yang, how you think that the concepts and application can simply be reduced to "harmony" is beyond me.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-22-2011, 09:15 AM   #38
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Semantics I would say Tim. We can all look elsewhere and not see what was right in front of us. The Aikido word for yin yang would be harmony would it not? (in plain english) A much talked about thing by Ueshiba.

Regards.G.
Nope - Ueshiba talked about "harmony" in various contexts, but it was, as in English, a different word.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-22-2011, 09:24 AM   #39
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Patrick Hutchinson wrote: View Post
Graham: why ask you to clarify?

Because a gnomic little interjection like that doesn't really come to grips with the discussion. It's like my 8 year-old saying "Yeah, but what about string theory, huh?"

Perhaps Chris does understand the reference. I'd certainly like to be enlightened as to what they are and how they relate to Dan's thesis.

And when you add "just maybe," to your comment, I infer that you're implying that you believe they are indeed related, and that you think the relationship is obvious.

So please explain. Thank you.

Patrick
Hey! What he said...

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-22-2011, 09:27 AM   #40
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Here's an interesting fact - Ueshiba wrote a commentary about how to do kokyu-ho, and one well known translation has it as "put ki energy into your fingertips" - only the original Japanese says "put power (力) into your fingertips". Do you begin to see the problem?
Hi Chris. Could you please look at what/how your computer is handling kanji? We are expecting big things from your translation efforts, but it is not going to help much if you can't show us the Japanese.

For example is the above 力, 呼吸力, 体力, something else?

I'd also be curious to know what verb he is using for "put."

-Doug Walker
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Old 09-22-2011, 09:30 AM   #41
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
No, the Japanese words for yin/yang are the two words in Japanese explained already in this thread. Yin and yang are two separate things and as I'm sure you know within medicine, the natural world, and yes in martial arts different phenomenon are ascribed as either yin or yang influenced...while harmony may be a desired state of balance in which a given thing is neither too yin nor too yang, how you think that the concepts and application can simply be reduced to "harmony" is beyond me.
I want to add (had to leave to get somewhere...) that it is one thing to talk about metaphors, as in "oh, he must have meant....harmony" but in application this will not work - it is the actual things that are yin and yang that count.
A TCM practitioner cannot provide proper herbs and acupuncture on a metaphor of "harmony" - he needs to know what specifically is manifesting yin and what specifically is manifesting yang and how to guage which in and of itself is deficient or in a surplus and THEN figure out how to restore harmony.
If I understand Dan correctly - and I may be off base as we've still not met in real life! - in the martial arts application yin and yang similiarly is NOT a metaphor for an ideal state of harmony but actual things in their own right to be reckoned with.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-22-2011, 10:00 AM   #42
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

You cannot in fact ...be...in harmony without in yo ho residing in yourself.
This is something which your founder continually stressed, it is an old concept and....
It is a teaching -that so far- I have never heard come out of the mouth of a living Aikido teacher, nor read in an interview, nor seen laid out in theory, practice or application on film.

Ueshiba:
右手をば陽にあらわし左手は陰にかえして相手みちびけ
"Manifest yo (yang) in the right hand, change the left hand to in (yin) and guide the opponent."

This of course directly relates to Chinese arts
Hon Jun Sheng:
I realized then that Chen Xin's model of the Host hand and guest hand; where the guest hand receives and the host hand guides in perfect balance.

Ueshiba again:
<念>にもとづき『気の妙用』をはかるには、まず五体の左は武の基礎、右は宇宙の受ける気結びの現われる土台であると心得よ。この左・右の気結びがおのずから成就すれば、 あとの動きは自由自在となる。
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."

There are many more of these.

Of course these simple rules give way to depth and sophisticated methodology that remains consistent regardless of speed or pressures. Most people who are honest in their own practice know they cannot produce their vaunted "harmony" and control they are looking for under stress. They know they have to rely on too much cooperation. It is this deficit in understanding that is slowly redefining the art to fit this new standard or requirement. It is one that Ueshiba never had face or to consider.
It is because we fail to understand Aiki in yo ho
Which by the way is the cornerstone of Daito ryu, where he first learned its secrets.
"Takeda opened my eyes to true budo."

So from China, to Koryu to Daito ryu, to Aikido
All "Hidden In Plain Sight."
What has become incredibly clear and certain is that Ueshiba Morihei was reciting prior works and understanding that fueled his arts. Many of his Doka..were not his at all.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-22-2011 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 09-22-2011, 10:55 AM   #43
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Doug Walker wrote: View Post
Hi Chris. Could you please look at what/how your computer is handling kanji? We are expecting big things from your translation efforts, but it is not going to help much if you can't show us the Japanese.

For example is the above 力, 呼吸力, "力, something else?

I'd also be curious to know what verb he is using for "put."
Sorry, regular UTF-8 in Firefox, shouldn't be a problem - it isn't, in other forums, I think it's something in the way Aikiweb handles the kanji.

Anyway, it's "chikara" ("li", but not the same as my "Chris Li" ).

"yubisaki ni chikara wo irete" - so "put" is "ireru".

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-22-2011, 10:59 AM   #44
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I want to add (had to leave to get somewhere...) that it is one thing to talk about metaphors, as in "oh, he must have meant....harmony" but in application this will not work - it is the actual things that are yin and yang that count.
A TCM practitioner cannot provide proper herbs and acupuncture on a metaphor of "harmony" - he needs to know what specifically is manifesting yin and what specifically is manifesting yang and how to guage which in and of itself is deficient or in a surplus and THEN figure out how to restore harmony.
If I understand Dan correctly - and I may be off base as we've still not met in real life! - in the martial arts application yin and yang similiarly is NOT a metaphor for an ideal state of harmony but actual things in their own right to be reckoned with.
It is absolutely not metaphorical, that's becoming more and more evident - even in Ueshiba's own writings.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-22-2011, 11:09 AM   #45
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Patrick Hutchinson wrote: View Post
It's like my 8 year-old saying "Yeah, but what about string theory, huh?"
You have a very precocious 8-year-old, Patrick.

The fresh perspective on Ueshiba Morihei's statements and how they have been translated, and the tie-in to Hong Junsheng's writing from Chen taijiquan (especially knowing about the teaching of Daito-ryu practitioners by Hong's student Liu Chengde) is very interesting. Thanks, Dan and Chris, for your contributions here.
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Old 09-22-2011, 11:13 AM   #46
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Actually, I believe it refers to the 'four main powers' (peng, lu, ji, and) and the four additives powers thereof.

Eg: http://www.taijigongfu.com/8energies.html

What do you think 8 powers refers to, Graham?
Hi Bob. I see. So in taijigongfu that is what it refers to. O.K. Another thing learned.

In Aikido I use those compass points and we call it eight directions.

In Aikido however and specifically on Ueshiba's statements about it then eight powers is mentioned with relationship to the universe, life living and fundamental to Aikido. This eight powers is of the Kotodama, thus spiritual principles.

Regards G.
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Old 09-22-2011, 11:18 AM   #47
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I want to add (had to leave to get somewhere...) that it is one thing to talk about metaphors, as in "oh, he must have meant....harmony" but in application this will not work - it is the actual things that are yin and yang that count.
A TCM practitioner cannot provide proper herbs and acupuncture on a metaphor of "harmony" - he needs to know what specifically is manifesting yin and what specifically is manifesting yang and how to guage which in and of itself is deficient or in a surplus and THEN figure out how to restore harmony.
If I understand Dan correctly - and I may be off base as we've still not met in real life! - in the martial arts application yin and yang similiarly is NOT a metaphor for an ideal state of harmony but actual things in their own right to be reckoned with.
Hello Kiddo

Aiki in yo ho is a means to create and retain a balance of yin and yang within yourself and then how it is manifest in meeting force. It is from there, in accord with the three origins: Heaven/Earth/Man, and self rotation, and spiral energy that we manifest "The eight powers." from in yo.

Metaphor is interesting in that in the classical or traditional sense it was always carried forth in scrolls or in poems (my sig line comes from a chinese classic poem), combined with hands on. Neither mode, in isolation, will suffice for true understanding. What I think is certain is that knowing the body parts is almost useless without the hands on. I think a whole lot of people are just kidding themselves.
In regards to his writings, I think most should just "Sit this one out." We've been there and done that. Except for Shirata, O sensei's deshi haven't come up with anything meaningful in the past that I am aware of. All we've gotten for their efforts was misstranslations and etherial nonsense or external power. Because of their own inability to understand (for whatever reason) the rest of us haven't even begun to scratch the surface of what the art truly meant to Ueshiba in his own words.

Ueshiba:
「一霊四魂三元八力や呼吸、合気の理解なくして合気道を稽古しても合気道の本当の力は出てこないだろう。」

"I think that if you cannot understand Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, breath (kokyu) and Aiki, then even if you practice Aikido the true power of Aikido will not come forth."

How far back do we go to find the sources who held everyone else back, particularly the foreign students? Who knows.

Dan
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Old 09-22-2011, 11:44 AM   #48
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Patrick Hutchinson wrote: View Post
Graham: why ask you to clarify?

Because a gnomic little interjection like that doesn't really come to grips with the discussion. It's like my 8 year-old saying "Yeah, but what about string theory, huh?"

Perhaps Chris does understand the reference. I'd certainly like to be enlightened as to what they are and how they relate to Dan's thesis.

And when you add "just maybe," to your comment, I infer that you're implying that you believe they are indeed related, and that you think the relationship is obvious.

So please explain. Thank you.

Patrick
Mmmm. A gnomic interjection? Ha, ha.

Firstly let's clear the scene. The thread was dead. No one was having much to do with it. I thought I'd get it going again. (who knows, maybe I felt sorry for Dan as he had started a thread and not many felt willing to participate) I respect those who start threads. In plain English, at that point in time there was no discussion active.

Secondly the title is meant to be what it says no? So various views on power from various sources are open to discussion not just one persons.

Thirdly may I congratulate you on having such an inquisitive and educated son.

Fourthly it may or may not relate to Dan's personal thesis. It relates to the subject.

Fifthly, I was communicating to Dan or referring to him and giving him the chance to offer his opinion. An exploratory comment. Any inference was me inferring that Ueshibas Aikido was based on Kotodama.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-22-2011, 12:12 PM   #49
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Since the "Eight Powers of the Kototama" has been brought up, let me just throw this out there. The most prevalent reference to "Eight Powers' as it relates to Kototama can be found in the Dobun - here is a link to it on the aikidogaq site:

http://www.aikidofaq.com/dobun.html

This appears to be just another translated interpretation via a filtered perspective based on one's opinion of what Ueshiba was saying and writing. In order to find a more objective viewpoint of the Kototama, I went to Masahilo Nakazono's book Inochi; which goes into the Kototama in much detail. In the book there is no reference to Eight Powers' as explained in the Dobun, but there is reference to the four mother sounds of U, A, O, E and the eight father sounds/rhythms of T,K,M,H,L,N,Y,S, which when combined create the child sounds.

Interesting enough though, there is reference in the Dobun and Inochi that support Dan's statement of:

"Ueshiba again:
<念>にもとづき『気の妙用』をはかるには、まず五体の左は武の基礎、右は宇宙の受ける気結びの現われる土台であると心得よ。この左・右の気結びがおのずから 成就すれば、 あとの動きは自由自在となる。
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."

In Inochi, Nakazona states that U' is the chaotic beginning and A' is the light of life; WA' is phenomena lit up by the light of A' , and each dimension is an independent manifestation. He also goes on to explain that A' represents the a priori and WA' the posteriori human capacity, which is connected via the I-WI' life force dimension, which is KI. In looking at Dan's statement above, you see that the point being made is that one part of the body is connected to "A" and the other WA' - or the spiritual and physical with the connection enabled by Ki - or the in-yo of the human existence.

Greg
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Old 09-22-2011, 12:21 PM   #50
graham christian
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You cannot in fact ...be...in harmony without in yo ho residing in yourself.
This is something which your founder continually stressed, it is an old concept and....
It is a teaching -that so far- I have never heard come out of the mouth of a living Aikido teacher, nor read in an interview, nor seen laid out in theory, practice or application on film.

Ueshiba:
右手をば陽にあらわし左手は陰にかえして相手みちびけ
"Manifest yo (yang) in the right hand, change the left hand to in (yin) and guide the opponent."

This of course directly relates to Chinese arts
Hon Jun Sheng:
I realized then that Chen Xin's model of the Host hand and guest hand; where the guest hand receives and the host hand guides in perfect balance.

Ueshiba again:
<念>にもとづき『気の妙用』をはかるには、まず五体の左は武の基礎、右は宇宙の受ける気結びの現われる土台であると心得よ。この左・右の気結びがおのずから成就すれば、 あとの動きは自由自在となる。
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."

There are many more of these.

Of course these simple rules give way to depth and sophisticated methodology that remains consistent regardless of speed or pressures. Most people who are honest in their own practice know they cannot produce their vaunted "harmony" and control they are looking for under stress. They know they have to rely on too much cooperation. It is this deficit in understanding that is slowly redefining the art to fit this new standard or requirement. It is one that Ueshiba never had face or to consider.
It is because we fail to understand Aiki in yo ho
Which by the way is the cornerstone of Daito ryu, where he first learned its secrets.
"Takeda opened my eyes to true budo."

So from China, to Koryu to Daito ryu, to Aikido
All "Hidden In Plain Sight."
What has become incredibly clear and certain is that Ueshiba Morihei was reciting prior works and understanding that fueled his arts. Many of his Doka..were not his at all.

Dan
I agree you cannot be in harmony without a balance of yin and yang, it's self evident as the whole theory of yin and yang is to do with harmony.

So when I use the word harmony or indeed ueshiba did it is self evident he was talking about things being in balance. I don't know of many martial arts who don't use the theory to one degree or another.

I mention and teach it non-stop as did my teacher and I'm sure many other teachers do too. So you not hearing it coming out of the mouth of any living Aikido teacher I find surprising. Or do you mean your particular take on it?

There are indeed many quotes of Ueshiba and until they are given in correct context, ie: when he said it, to whom he said it, relating to what at the time and put alongside what else he said at that particular time then a false picture may be adopted.

Of course things can be traced back to other times and other arts
just like English language can be traced back to various languages but if I want to study Latin I will do so as a separate thing for a separate reason and as a secondary thing it may no doubt improve my understanding of the English language.

I don't disagree that O'Sensei studied the things you talk about prior to developing his own Aiki budo later to be called Aikido.

To me personally it was a stage on his path which he passed through and that stage was called daito ryu. He moved on from there and as he said to Hikiksuchi "I have changed everything"

Thus I see Aikido differently to you. From my view that means what it says and no more. From others or maybe you it may mean many things. It may mean I'm therefore against you.....no. It may mean all kind of significances for people tend to think in terms of for or against. Oh well, that's their problem. I don't think that way.

Regards G.
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