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Old 09-16-2011, 09:58 AM   #1
DH
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Aikido: Discussions of power

I would like to open with a discussion of O sensei by his son, Kisshomaru in... "A life in Aikido."
After a recent seminar, I was reading and reflecting on a direction, and and the continued discovery of the ignorance of such basics as the warm up exercises in the art and how and why they were done, what they were for and what they were meant to deliver to the adept.
_________________
"...since O sensei had made his search for the true path of Aiki the center of his life, I don't think these "legendary feats" were all he intended to do. But since Aikido was still at an early stage, I think he used these feats as a means to explain and promote Aikido to the masses, who might not easily acknowledge it without power or the proof of power. In other words, my sense is that O sensei's legendary feats were intended not only to demonstrate or show off what he could do, but to create and opportunity for the introduction of a true martial art.
O sensei could use some rather dramatic methods to show what Takemusu Aiki...was."

_________________

I think this stands in stark contrast to what has become of the art in the hands of those who thought to pursue it's higher goals without the means to deliver as martial artists. It strains credibility to be copying the trappings of a martial art without the means to deliver. And apparently the more one researches and reads, the more one discovers that the arts founder not only shared the same view, but stressed it continually.

Of interest, in the same chapter, We find a discussion of Kito ryu as the study of In yo ho, with direct correlation to Ueshiba's pursuit in Daito ryu's aiki in yo ho, with the advice that one cannot pursue one or the other, but must maintain the union of opposites to be effective. This lines up with the new translations currently taking place and those, fit in well with the Chinese models. Yet we hear these same sayings (which the non-aikido people understand)... were un-intelligible to those students of Aikido who would become the Japanese teachers the Aikido community is currently following.

I think that nothing has changed from the post war taking over of Kisshomaru to today. I believe O sensei's famous entry comment "This is not my Aikido" into the post war dojo, would be used upon his entry into the majority of modern dojo, were he alive today. I keep hearing this assessment stated by Shihan and teachers I am meeting. "I think we missed it." "I do not believe that we would withstand O sensei's scrutiny of our methods today." I think O sensei, would no doubt agree. For most, they cannot enter into an informed discussion on the tenets of in yo ho and how it applies to effective movement, much less how it would be the cornerstone of soft power in a martial art based on Aiki. It appears that once they experience aiki and the ability to generate power, they now agree that were O sensei to re-enter the picture today, his entry would sunder the Aikdo community, as many, if not most, would have to re-wire or leave. In other words, his re-entry would turn modern Aikido on its head.

Against outside pressure, Ueshiba's pursuit of effective power as the core of Aikido would withstand the current demands, would withstand critical review for internal power and aiki and he would in fact, get along with and have more in common with those pursuing that as the foundation of their aikido than the current methods of the majority practicing the art.
Thoughts?
Dan
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Old 09-16-2011, 11:34 AM   #2
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I would like to open with a discussion of O sensei by his son, Kisshomaru in... "A life in Aikido."
After a recent seminar, I was reading and reflecting on a direction, and and the continued discovery of the ignorance of such basics as the warm up exercises in the art and how and why they were done, what they were for and what they were meant to deliver to the adept.
_________________
"...since O sensei had made his search for the true path of Aiki the center of his life, I don't think these "legendary feats" were all he intended to do. But since Aikido was still at an early stage, I think he used these feats as a means to explain and promote Aikido to the masses, who might not easily acknowledge it without power or the proof of power. In other words, my sense is that O sensei's legendary feats were intended not only to demonstrate or show off what he could do, but to create and opportunity for the introduction of a true martial art.
O sensei could use some rather dramatic methods to show what Takemusu Aiki...was."

_________________

I think this stands in stark contrast to what has become of the art in the hands of those who thought to pursue it's higher goals without the means to deliver as martial artists. It strains credibility to be copying the trappings of a martial art without the means to deliver. And apparently the more one researches and reads, the more one discovers that the arts founder not only shared the same view, but stressed it continually.

Of interest, in the same chapter, We find a discussion of Kito ryu as the study of In yo ho, with direct correlation to Ueshiba's pursuit in Daito ryu's aiki in yo ho, with the advice that one cannot pursue one or the other, but must maintain the union of opposites to be effective. This lines up with the new translations currently taking place and those, fit in well with the Chinese models. Yet we hear these same sayings (which the non-aikido people understand)... were un-intelligible to those students of Aikido who would become the Japanese teachers the Aikido community is currently following.

I think that nothing has changed from the post war taking over of Kisshomaru to today. I believe O sensei's famous entry comment "This is not my Aikido" into the post war dojo, would be used upon his entry into the majority of modern dojo, were he alive today. I keep hearing this assessment stated by Shihan and teachers I am meeting. "I think we missed it." "I do not believe that we would withstand O sensei's scrutiny of our methods today." I think O sensei, would no doubt agree. For most, they cannot enter into an informed discussion on the tenets of in yo ho and how it applies to effective movement, much less how it would be the cornerstone of soft power in a martial art based on Aiki. It appears that once they experience aiki and the ability to generate power, they now agree that were O sensei to re-enter the picture today, his entry would sunder the Aikdo community, as many, if not most, would have to re-wire or leave. In other words, his re-entry would turn modern Aikido on its head.

Against outside pressure, Ueshiba's pursuit of effective power as the core of Aikido would withstand the current demands, would withstand critical review for internal power and aiki and he would in fact, get along with and have more in common with those pursuing that as the foundation of their aikido than the current methods of the majority practicing the art.
Thoughts?
Dan
Nice read Dan,

IMO, he never intended for everyone to get it. He had more than enough years to complain about the direction things were going, but apart from a few references to him blowing up about how it was being practiced, he seemed ok with it overall. He produced a few students of worth and probably felt that his students would do the same, but as far as everyone understanding? His teacher spoke clearly against that actually and while he may have wanted to change things, he doesn't seem to have wanted to change that.

As for people today, even with clear instruction of internal skills, I don't think it would change much. You would have a few people of real ability and a bunch of people who show up, put in their time and go home. As you know, without a serious investment of time, effort and brain you're only going to get so far. That's really no different than anything though, martial arts or otherwise. Few people care to be excellent.

What matters most, IMO, is clear instruction and understanding. When you have clear,understandable ways of explaining things then you have something that people can learn even when they might not have someone of excellence there to teach them. IS, to this point, simply has not had that.
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Old 09-16-2011, 09:54 PM   #3
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Hi Dan,
Quote:
We find a discussion of Kito ryu as the study of In yo ho, with direct correlation to Ueshiba's pursuit in Daito ryu's aiki in yo ho, with the advice that one cannot pursue one or the other, but must maintain the union of opposites to be effective.
Can this also be read as "one cannot pursue the in yo ho of Kito ryu or the in yo ho of Daito ryu, but must maintain in yo ho to be effective"? Possibly as a description of how the essence is more important than the form?

Quote:
Against outside pressure, Ueshiba's pursuit of effective power as the core of Aikido would withstand the current demands, would withstand critical review for internal power and aiki and he would in fact, get along with and have more in common with those pursuing that as the foundation of their aikido than the current methods of the majority practicing the art.
Thoughts?
Of course I'm not as scholarly on these things as you and a lot of other people are, but similar to Jason, I wonder if O Sensei simply wasn't concerned with everyone "getting it;" perhaps having the view that people will tend to fall into whatever role that best suits them?
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 09-17-2011, 01:21 AM   #4
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,

Can this also be read as "one cannot pursue the in yo ho of Kito ryu or the in yo ho of Daito ryu, but must maintain in yo ho to be effective"? Possibly as a description of how the essence is more important than the form?
Hey Dan, could you tell me what chapter you're looking at? I have a copy, but only the Japanese edition...

I'll check it out when I get home, I'm in California taking my daughter to college. Damn, I feel old walking around here.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-18-2011, 05:13 PM   #5
graham christian
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Maybe it all traces back to the eight powers of the kotodama,

Just maybe.G.
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Old 09-21-2011, 10:10 AM   #6
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

I see many people discussing power and wonder what they believe power is and also which power they are talking about. Then I also wonder how all this fits Aikido.

Power to me is a position or condition. Through study and practice you gain an ability and then you can use that ability to create a desired effect. You are now in a position of power with regards to that particular action. It's quite normal so what's the significance?

A guy in charge of something is in a position of power.

Whatever ability a person learns and thus can do puts them in a condition of power. So once again what is the significance?

More important to me is not power but the fact that with power comes the need for great responsibility. Thus responsibility is far more important and indeed necessary.

Power is enticing yet it is hollow.

So now back to Aikido. What has it to do with Aikido?

Using it to show you are more powerful? Using it to win? Using it to show superiority? Using it to prove 'martial effectiveness' ?

This is what a person needs to look at to clear in themselves what they are doing it for.

Personally I would say it is using it to both empower self and others. In fact I would say that the aim of my Aikido is a martial effectiveness that empowers others martial effectiveness.

Thus it is more than just empowering but empowering with responsibility. How to use power to bring about harmony and well being.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-21-2011, 11:09 AM   #7
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I see many people discussing power and wonder what they believe power is and also which power they are talking about. Then I also wonder how all this fits Aikido.

Power to me is a position or condition. Through study and practice you gain an ability and then you can use that ability to create a desired effect. You are now in a position of power with regards to that particular action. It's quite normal so what's the significance?

A guy in charge of something is in a position of power.

Whatever ability a person learns and thus can do puts them in a condition of power. So once again what is the significance?

More important to me is not power but the fact that with power comes the need for great responsibility. Thus responsibility is far more important and indeed necessary.

Power is enticing yet it is hollow.

So now back to Aikido. What has it to do with Aikido?

Using it to show you are more powerful? Using it to win? Using it to show superiority? Using it to prove 'martial effectiveness' ?

This is what a person needs to look at to clear in themselves what they are doing it for.

Personally I would say it is using it to both empower self and others. In fact I would say that the aim of my Aikido is a martial effectiveness that empowers others martial effectiveness.

Thus it is more than just empowering but empowering with responsibility. How to use power to bring about harmony and well being.

Regards.G.
Graham.

It appears that you are out of alignment with Dan on what type of Power this thread was started to discuss. Below is from Dictionary.com:

"power   [pou-er] Show IPA
noun
1. ability to do or act; capability of doing or accomplishing something.

2. political or national strength: the balance of power in Europe.

3. great or marked ability to do or act; strength; might; force.

4. the possession of control or command over others; authority; ascendancy: power over men's minds.

5. political ascendancy or control in the government of a country, state, etc.: They attained power by overthrowing the legal government."


Dan is referring to power as defined by #3 and you are in #1 and to some extent #4.

So, with this in mind, what are your thoughts on power as defined by #3 and how you feel it relates to Ueshiba's Aikido ?

Greg
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Old 09-21-2011, 12:03 PM   #8
graham christian
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Graham.

It appears that you are out of alignment with Dan on what type of Power this thread was started to discuss. Below is from Dictionary.com:

"power   [pou-er] Show IPA
noun
1. ability to do or act; capability of doing or accomplishing something.

2. political or national strength: the balance of power in Europe.

3. great or marked ability to do or act; strength; might; force.

4. the possession of control or command over others; authority; ascendancy: power over men's minds.

5. political ascendancy or control in the government of a country, state, etc.: They attained power by overthrowing the legal government."


Dan is referring to power as defined by #3 and you are in #1 and to some extent #4.

So, with this in mind, what are your thoughts on power as defined by #3 and how you feel it relates to Ueshiba's Aikido ?

Greg
Interesting, thank you. As per number three? Well I'll try to answer as best I can.

First of all strength, might, force I would generally say is not to do with my Aikido but would qualify that as brute strength, might, force.

Secondly I would say that those things are generally equated with physical and include such energy as aggression etc. So once again I would say it's not my Aikido.

Thirdly as far as ueshiba goes I would say that before the war he too was employing that way of thinking to a large extent although continually seeking that 'something else' I would also say that before the war he sometimes showed that something else but was yet to fully grasp it.

Now after the war and more importantly after his realization regarding true budo I would say his whole view on power changed. Thus I would say what looked like force and strength and might was now no longer such and he himself would spend the next x amount of years trying to communicate and teach such.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-21-2011, 12:17 PM   #9
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Interesting, thank you. As per number three? Well I'll try to answer as best I can.

First of all strength, might, force I would generally say is not to do with my Aikido but would qualify that as brute strength, might, force.

Secondly I would say that those things are generally equated with physical and include such energy as aggression etc. So once again I would say it's not my Aikido.

Thirdly as far as ueshiba goes I would say that before the war he too was employing that way of thinking to a large extent although continually seeking that 'something else' I would also say that before the war he sometimes showed that something else but was yet to fully grasp it.

Now after the war and more importantly after his realization regarding true budo I would say his whole view on power changed. Thus I would say what looked like force and strength and might was now no longer such and he himself would spend the next x amount of years trying to communicate and teach such.

Regards.G.
OK, in answer to that, go back and re-read Dan's first post in this thread and let us know how you think that compares to what you just posted above.

Greg
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Old 09-21-2011, 12:33 PM   #10
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
OK, in answer to that, go back and re-read Dan's first post in this thread and let us know how you think that compares to what you just posted above.

Greg
O.K. Done. Comparisons: His Aikido was different to what most thought it was. Others had a hard time understanding where he was coming from. That's about it.

Other things stated in that post imply he was searching for power, I disagree. I think too many equate him with Musashi.

If anything he was searching for responsibility not power in my view.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-21-2011, 12:50 PM   #11
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I would like to open with a discussion of O sensei by his son, Kisshomaru in... "A life in Aikido."
After a recent seminar, I was reading and reflecting on a direction, and and the continued discovery of the ignorance of such basics as the warm up exercises in the art and how and why they were done, what they were for and what they were meant to deliver to the adept.
IMO, I feel that the warmup exercises have for the most part lost most of their substance and are essentially just a hollow shell of their original intent.

The approaches I have seen on these exercise have all been strictly external and focused on strengthening and loosening up muscle and joints. Now I believe that is part of what they were intended for, but I also think there is more to it that addresses internal development as well. However, without knowing what should be happening internally, that part of the exercise will be lost.

A basic tenet of internal skills training is the strengthening and development of the whole body connection of the fascia, ligaments, and tendons. What we do in our warmup exercises to support this, is to perform the stretch with an exhale totally relaxing all muscle while extending the stretch as far as possible. We will then hold that extension while doing a slight reverse breathing inhale. This will essentially inflate and add pressure inside the body along the path of the stretch. At this point we will then mentally explore that path with the mind by visualizing ki flow along the path. IMO, this approach brings together both aspects of the mind and body in the performance of the exercise. This approach was not something given to us directly by Dan or any other source, but it is something we have put together based on the concepts and principles of what we have been giving by Dan and other sources for our aiki development.

Greg
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:01 PM   #12
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
O.K. Done. Comparisons: His Aikido was different to what most thought it was. Others had a hard time understanding where he was coming from. That's about it.

Other things stated in that post imply he was searching for power, I disagree. I think too many equate him with Musashi.

If anything he was searching for responsibility not power in my view.

Regards.G.
OK, so what is agreed is that most people today are not doing Ueshiba's aikido -

As far as what he was searching for, I do not think anyone can say for sure because people today are not doing what he was doing and we can't ask him for clarification - so all that leaves is speculation and entertaining discussions

Greg
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:05 PM   #13
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
IMO, I feel that the warmup exercises have for the most part lost most of their substance and are essentially just a hollow shell of their original intent.

The approaches I have seen on these exercise have all been strictly external and focused on strengthening and loosening up muscle and joints. Now I believe that is part of what they were intended for, but I also think there is more to it that addresses internal development as well. However, without knowing what should be happening internally, that part of the exercise will be lost.

A basic tenet of internal skills training is the strengthening and development of the whole body connection of the fascia, ligaments, and tendons. What we do in our warmup exercises to support this, is to perform the stretch with an exhale totally relaxing all muscle while extending the stretch as far as possible. We will then hold that extension while doing a slight reverse breathing inhale. This will essentially inflate and add pressure inside the body along the path of the stretch. At this point we will then mentally explore that path with the mind by visualizing ki flow along the path. IMO, this approach brings together both aspects of the mind and body in the performance of the exercise. This approach was not something given to us directly by Dan or any other source, but it is something we have put together based on the concepts and principles of what we have been giving by Dan and other sources for our aiki development.

Greg
I agree. At most you get people focusing on the movements of the exercise, but doing little else.

I'm also doing very similar things with those exercises these days myself. Sounds like something that could spin off into an interesting thread of its own...
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:21 PM   #14
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I agree. At most you get people focusing on the movements of the exercise, but doing little else.

I'm also doing very similar things with those exercises these days myself. Sounds like something that could spin off into an interesting thread of its own...:)
Nah, it would just turn into one of those unruly 'how to' discussions where someone will start asking what are you smoking when you inhale and where does the shear come into play

Greg
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:24 PM   #15
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Nah, it would just turn into one of those unruly 'how to' discussions where someone will start asking what are you smoking when you inhale and where does the shear come into play

Greg
well you can ask about my inhale all day, but if you touch my shear you better at least have a beer in hand because we have protocols for such things here in the south!
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:36 PM   #16
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
OK, so what is agreed is that most people today are not doing Ueshiba's aikido -

As far as what he was searching for, I do not think anyone can say for sure because people today are not doing what he was doing and we can't ask him for clarification - so all that leaves is speculation and entertaining discussions

Greg
Did I say that? No I didn't. For me all doing Aikido today are doing some of his Aikido. They should progress progress at their own pace and learn more and more. Hence it is a journey. Nowhere in my thinking or statements would I say people are not doing some part of his Aikido.

He said it one day in exhasperation to those particular people concerned at the time. I have said it to my students probably more than once to do with mine. What's the big significance?

He did say what he was searching for so it doesn't really need much speculation unless you don't believe him.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-21-2011, 07:16 PM   #17
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

He did say what he was searching for so it doesn't really need much speculation unless you didn't understand him.

What makes the softest aiki...is power
What generates control of others force into you that feels ghosty soft...is power.
What makes deadly atemi is power.
Most martial artists, do not understand power, which give those that do...power over them.
It is not about strength for force on force. Continually bringing it up shows how far people are off from understanding their own founders message.
Using small effort to move a large force requires power unseen or felt.
Using 5 and 5 to defeat ten is power unseen.
7 and 3 to defeat ten requires power unseen.
The source of that power is Aiki in yo ho.

Takeda knew it
Sagawa trained it and talked about it
"However closely you watch my Aiki from the outside you will not understand. That's because I remove the power from my opponent through internal movements that do not show in the outer form. Now I am able to remove the enemy's power no matter where on my body I am grabbed. The source of this begins from a simple principle,(aiki in yo ho) but nobody understands. You can see whether somebody understands by watching their Aiki-age."

Ueshiba trained it and talked about it
Henry (Kono) asked O-sensei "Why can we not do what you do, Sensei?" O-Sensei's reply was direct, simple and final, "Because you don't understand in yo ho."
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."
"Manifest yo (yang) in the right hand, change the left hand to in (yin) and guide the opponent."
"The way of the mountain echo is intent, standing in the center of the connection between the ki of heaven and the ki of the earth."

Tohei trained it and talked about it
Shirata trained it and talked about it
How you are meant to use it is the mystery that people do not understand. It is the source of aiki in-yo-ho. The very foundation of the entire art of Aikido....is power.

In his own words
Interestingly enough, Many of Ueshiba's commentaries are borrowed from Daito ryu and the Chinese arts. Some are almost word for word. In essence many of his Doka; Yin and Yang hand, dual opposing spirals, Six directions, Heaven/earth/man, mountain echo, are not his, they are concepts all borrowed from other arts.
And they were given to a student based completely incapable of even translating them correctly, much less defining and doing what he was apparently continually talking about.
When they were asked why they mistranslated, or skipped over translating these phrases on movement that were so dear to your founder that he repeated them over and over and are commonplace to about a million people, they said..
"We had no idea what they meant."
And they....became your teachers.

I agree with Both Sagawa and Ueshiba who is worth quoting again.
"Why can we not do what you do, Sensei?" O-Sensei's reply was direct, simple and final, "Because you don't understand in yo ho."

And Sagawa "All you need do is watch someone do aki age and you know if they understand in yo ho."
If you are not doing aiki in yo ho, you are not doing Aikido (the way of aiki). Ueshiba was right, it really is that simple.

Dan
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Old 09-21-2011, 08:28 PM   #18
graham christian
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Is that right???

He did say what he was searching for which was true budo. He finally found it too.

Power as a word used on it's own is hollow and I guarantee he did not say such things without qualification.

Henry kono did indeed ask such a question but the answer stated above has some add ons for he never mentioned in yo ho or anything else, he merely stated it was because he didn't understand yin and yang. No more.

Power over someone would be domination would it not? How many times did he say his Aikido was not about domination and control?

Regards.G.
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Old 09-21-2011, 09:29 PM   #19
Chris Li
 
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Is that right???

He did say what he was searching for which was true budo. He finally found it too.

Power as a word used on it's own is hollow and I guarantee he did not say such things without qualification.

Henry kono did indeed ask such a question but the answer stated above has some add ons for he never mentioned in yo ho or anything else, he merely stated it was because he didn't understand yin and yang. No more.

Power over someone would be domination would it not? How many times did he say his Aikido was not about domination and control?

Regards.G.
"Yin and yang" is Chinese. Ueshiba was speaking Japanese and would have said "In yo". "Ho" just means "method".

In and yo appear all through Ueshiba's writings - including the ones after he said that he had found "true budo". Also all of the other bits that Dan mentions. All of that is available in publicly available works.

Here's an interesting fact - Ueshiba wrote a commentary about how to do kokyu-ho, and one well known translation has it as "put ki energy into your fingertips" - only the original Japanese says "put power (力) into your fingertips". Do you begin to see the problem?

You mentioned "eight powers" in a previous post. OK, I'll bite - what are the eight powers, what do they mean, and where do they come from?

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-21-2011, 09:46 PM   #20
DH
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Chinese: Yin yang
Japanese- in yo ho (method) yes it is a method.
By definition it is not about power dominating...
But you would have to understand what in yo ho means.
Which was more or less my point.

As I stated
Teachers in aikido don't get what their own founder was saying. It's not their fault, apparently it just isn't taught anymore, hence Ikeda going to Karate and Daito ryu to get it, others going elsewhere. I have read just about everything in English and it isn't there. It isn't in the interviews with the arts teachers. I now know the translators didn't know how to translate it correctly. They don't know the meaning of his terms, and they still don't understand his contextual referencing. As it was then, it is now, to the modern teachers...it's pretty much gobbledegook.

Some of us from...outside, are helping to fix this. Outside of Aikido -as aikido teachers attending seminars with teachers from other arts like the ICMA are finding out- this stuff is known. As one group of ICMA guys said to some aikido teachers: "Your art is a soft art, how come you guys don't know this stuff, what have you been doing?"

So we are trying hard to get the word out to aikido-ka, by reading it to them (their own translations are incorrect), teaching them where it came from, what it means, why their founder kept talking about it over and over and over and show them the same quotes from across the sea. Then we show them how to do it, and why it was important. So far it seems the teachers like it and find it important. Plus they get reading suggestions to awaken them to a world their founder was pointing to that they thought was indecipherable. It's one of the benefits of going out to learn.

As for in yo ho, as has been pointed out (but only to certain teachers) in watching Ueshiba videos....(and as Sagawa said) "You can see it instantly."
Hell, at certain points it was like Ueshiba was daring you. "Hey...look at me!" it was so obvious.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-21-2011 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 09-21-2011, 09:49 PM   #21
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Oops...looks like we were both responding at the same time and you beat me to it, Chris.
All the best
Dan
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Old 09-21-2011, 10:45 PM   #22
Janet Rosen
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Thank you both Dan and Chris for excellent clarification.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-21-2011, 11:15 PM   #23
DH
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
You mentioned "eight powers" in a previous post. OK, I'll bite - what are the eight powers, what do they mean, and where do they come from?
Best,
Chris
And how do they relate to in yo ho?
Dan
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Old 09-22-2011, 02:30 AM   #24
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

To what extent would teaching method be of influence, and culture?

Quote:
Teachers in aikido don't get what their own founder was saying. It's not their fault, apparently it just isn't taught anymore, hence Ikeda going to Karate and Daito ryu to get it, others going elsewhere.
Ikeda was taught by Tada; not just anybody. Still he needed to look elsewhere...
Would that be because the teachings of Tada were not understood by Ikeda or this subject was not taught explicitly? And, did Ueshiba 'teach' this? From what I understand he showed, dared to see, but never taught it. Or is this just about semantics?

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
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Old 09-22-2011, 02:31 AM   #25
graham christian
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Re: Aikido: Discussions of power

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
"Yin and yang" is Chinese. Ueshiba was speaking Japanese and would have said "In yo". "Ho" just means "method".

In and yo appear all through Ueshiba's writings - including the ones after he said that he had found "true budo". Also all of the other bits that Dan mentions. All of that is available in publicly available works.

Here's an interesting fact - Ueshiba wrote a commentary about how to do kokyu-ho, and one well known translation has it as "put ki energy into your fingertips" - only the original Japanese says "put power (力) into your fingertips". Do you begin to see the problem?

You mentioned "eight powers" in a previous post. OK, I'll bite - what are the eight powers, what do they mean, and where do they come from?

Best,

Chris
O.K. Chris, thanks for the clarification. So in English he said yin and yang. Yes, and my not knowing the Japanese translation led me to assume that was an add on. For this I apologise and stand corrected.

Many things appear all through his writings so I fail to see the significance there.

Yes Chris I do see the problem and have for many years.

The eight powers? I have a feeling you already know so why do you ask?

Regards.G.
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