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Old 09-13-2011, 08:29 AM   #76
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Tim Jester wrote: View Post
The only problem I have with all that is that none of them really agree on what is what so who do you listen to??
Forget listening. Go out and meet people. There are plenty people around your way that are practing these bodyskills. I never knew I had it in my own backyard--I had to go to Japan to enter the 36 chambazzz.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 09-13-2011, 08:38 AM   #77
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

For anybody that is interested here is a link to the full 1hr 3 minute long video, with subtitles for those of us that cannot speak Japanese. To be honest I havn't had a chance to watch it is detail myself yet. The five principles at 30 odd minutes are interesting too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46veLgINFjU

The description of Judo using the ball is interesting at 34 minutes which led me onto an interesting thought. (Interesting to me at least !)

In DF Draeger's Martial Ways of Japan Volume III, Modern Bujutsu and Budo, I remember he makes a comparison that in Judo you pull when 'pushed' and 'push' when pulled and that contrastingly in Aikido when 'pushed' you turn and when 'pulled' you enter. Maybe this is incorrect information as...

It is interesting to note that Mifune says, when 'pushed' turn, when 'pulled' go with it on an angle. This is clearly more akin to tenkan and irimi, omote and ura, core principles in Aikido tai sabaki.

I never knew Judo had such a broad range of techniques from all sorts of attacks (knife, kicks, weapons etc.). As I have never done Judo I wonder how many of these are still in the modern Judo curriculum, and as may have been suggested how many of these techniques are a vestige of older ju-jutsu forms.

Any Judoka care to elaborate?

Last edited by gates : 09-13-2011 at 08:50 AM.

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Old 09-13-2011, 09:21 AM   #78
DH
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Keith Gates wrote: View Post
...In DF Draeger's Martial Ways of Japan Volume III, Modern Bujutsu and Budo, I remember he makes a comparison that in Judo you pull when 'pushed' and 'push' when pulled and that contrastingly in Aikido when 'pushed' you turn and when 'pulled' you enter. Maybe this is incorrect information as...

It is interesting to note that Mifune says, when 'pushed', turn when 'pulled' go with it on an angle. This is clearly more akin to tenkan and irimi, omote and ura, one of the core principles in Aikido tai sabaki.

I never knew Judo had such a broad range of techniques from all sorts of attacks (knife). As I have never done Judo I wonder how much of these are still in the modern Judo curriculum, and as may have been suggested how many of these techniques are a vestige of older ju-jutsu forms.

Any Judoka care to elaborate?
It will be interesting to see the timeline of when he met Ueshiba. An eyewitness account states that when asked, Mifune said (like Draeger);
When Pushed...pull.
It was Ueshiba who argued;
When pushed...Turn.
Is MIfune expressing an understanding here that he learned from Ueshiba?
Is he moving in accord with In yo ho? Not really..no.
Interestingly he does not express the thing he states about the sphere that well within his own turn. Those who train with me will see what I am seeing. He almost gets there, but not quite. Yet when Ueshiba does the same turn with In yo ho, it has an affect on uke. It isn't the turn you see in Aikido™, it is something else. He also misses his own point and contradicts his own statements about entering. Oh well. He is a Japanese teacher, so he could be lying, obfuscating, hiding the truth, dropping half a hint or just plain wrong. No one knows, but that's the point isn't it? What is true, is that it sure as hell is a piss poor way to teach what he himself could be teaching right then and there...if...he knew.
When I have time I will look up the credibility of the time line and witness accounts of the quotes.

Quote:
The description of Judo using the ball is interesting at 34 minutes which led me onto an interesting thought. (Interesting to me at least !)
It should be boringly obvious to anyone in budo. The idea that it is a secret of a master gained after 60 years of practice...instead of his being taught this the first year... is agonizingly sad. As was the notation by Kano's kid that no one trains this way anymore, but when a certain guy he knew did...he could not be thrown. Then again, they are Japanese teachers, so......
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-13-2011 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 09-13-2011, 09:24 AM   #79
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Tim Jester wrote: View Post
The only problem I have with all that is that none of them really agree on what is what so who do you listen to??
I wouldn't say that Tim. I think that when you get to the bones of it, they're ALL talking about the same thing. The differences and often times the arguements are usually based on the How and not the what, usually.... but yes, as Lorel said, get out and see people man.

Last edited by chillzATL : 09-13-2011 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 09-13-2011, 09:25 AM   #80
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It will be interesting to see the timeline of when he met Ueshiba. An eyewitness account states that when asked, Mifune said (like Draeger);
When Pushed...pull.
It was Ueshiba who argued;
When pushed...Turn.
Is MIfune expressing an understanding here that he learned from Ueshiba?
Is he moving in accord with In yo ho? Not really..no.
Interestingly he does not express the thing he states about the sphere that well within his own turn. Those who train with me will see what I am seeing. He almost gets there, but not quite. Yet when Ueshiba does the same turn with In yo ho, it has an affect on uke. It isn't the turn you see in Aikido™, it is something else. He also misses his own point and contradicts his own statements about entering. Oh well. He is a Japanese teacher, so he could be lying, obfuscating, hiding the truth, dropping half a hint or just plain wrong. No one knows but that's the point isn't it? What is true is that it sure as hell is a piss poor way to teach what he himself could be teaching right then and there...if...he knew.
When I have time I will look up the credibility of the time line and witness accounts of the quotes.

It should be boringly obvious to anyone in budo. The idea that it is a secret of a master gained after 60 years of practice...instead of his being taught this the first year... is agonizingly sad. As was the notation by Kano's kid that no one trains this way anymore, but when a certain guy he knew did...he could not be thrown. Then again, they are Japanese teachers, so......
Dan
And people ever wonder why it's so damn unappealing for me to join a martial arts group out where I'm at. Besides the Roppokai guys (who were somewhat generous)...no one here I would really like to train with. Want. To. Be. Back. In Toronto!

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 09-13-2011, 09:26 AM   #81
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Tim Jester wrote: View Post
The only problem I have with all that is that none of them really agree on what is what so who do you listen to??
You have to make a choice. I tell people to ignore me and go train elsewhere all the time, I even give them names. I've lost interest in arguing with people about this stuff, only to find they were not qualified to even be in the discussion. And I've no interest in building a big following.

I've had fun training on the sidelines, being a nobody, and poping back in and examining the comparative worth of the well known "methods" out there. It's been a lot of fun. I'd just as soon remain a nobody and see what ya'll are doing ten years from now.
Dan
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Old 09-13-2011, 09:34 AM   #82
DH
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
And people ever wonder why it's so damn unappealing for me to join a martial arts group out where I'm at. Besides the Roppokai guys (who were somewhat generous)...no one here I would really like to train with. Want. To. Be. Back. In Toronto!
Well you can always train. Just don't believe a single word they say. It's why I walked out the door.
Ya gotta love these guys..do what they do, say the things they say, act how they act and then blame you for not understanding....them.
A friend of mine tells me how he asked a Koryu teacher who had spent most of his adult life in Japan. "Sensei you have spent an hour explaining to us how we should try and understand them and how hard that is. Since there are more people practicing outside of Japan then inside, how come they don't try to understand us?"f
Answer
"Because they don't care."
In fairness since it is part of their cultural heritage...why should they?
It made him feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I told him look at it this way..they do it to themselves too...all the time. The amazing thing is that so many still think they are getting the goods. It's surreal.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-13-2011 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 09-13-2011, 10:15 AM   #83
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well you can always train. Just don't believe a single word they say. It's why I walked out the door.
Ya gotta love these guys..do what they do, say the things they say, act how they act and then blame you for not understanding....them.
A friend of mine tells me how he asked a Koryu teacher who had spent most of his adult life in Japan. "Sensei you have spent an hour explaining to us how we should try and understand them and how hard that is. Since there are more people practicing outside of Japan then inside, how come they don't try to understand us?"f
Answer
"Because they don't care."
In fairness since it is part of their cultural heritage...why should they?
It made him feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I told him look at it this way..they do it to themselves too...all the time. The amazing thing is that so many still think they are getting the goods. It's surreal.
Dan
Oh I'm training at home by myself.

Anyway, you mean Japanese not really caring about the goods, and going through the motions? In that case, I don't think it's so simple as what that sensei said "they don't care". I think it is a kind of cultural conditioning that leads Japanese students to make them appear as though they don't really care (you often read Sagawa say his students are stupid, etc--I find it rather imperceptive of him to not understand the state of the common Japanese student. Surprisingly, a brilliant math teacher was the only one to get the goods, but even then he struggled.). The conditioning is a complicated mixture of Japanese's obsession to take up a hobby (the hobby thing is really big, but they do not really take up a hobby to be "excellent", but just to be a part of something and to say that they have a hobby and to take their mind away from things like work or family), years and years of conditioning a conformist, uncritical mind, and the tendency to not question the sensei. These "cultural" habits end up exuding a seeming lack of passion towards the subject and a mind that is unable to rightly divide information (i.e., resourcefulness). They are simply not trained to look at the core of things...only those who have transcended the cultural conditioning are able to see the essence of things and train it relentlessly. Within certain educational paradigms, are you able to reverse this cultural conditioning--if we consider the Shu-Ha-Ri method, I think it is only those who belong to the "inner circle" that are blessed with this reversal. But since Budo is often practised en-masse and only few are selected to the inner circle, those who are not in the circle have to suffer mediocrity after years of training.

Last edited by Lorel Latorilla : 09-13-2011 at 10:20 AM.

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Old 09-13-2011, 11:49 AM   #84
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Oh I'm training at home by myself.

Anyway, you mean Japanese not really caring about the goods, and going through the motions? In that case, I don't think it's so simple as what that sensei said "they don't care". I think it is a kind of cultural conditioning that leads Japanese students to make them appear as though they don't really care (you often read Sagawa say his students are stupid, etc--I find it rather imperceptive of him to not understand the state of the common Japanese student. Surprisingly, a brilliant math teacher was the only one to get the goods, but even then he struggled.). The conditioning is a complicated mixture of Japanese's obsession to take up a hobby (the hobby thing is really big, but they do not really take up a hobby to be "excellent", but just to be a part of something and to say that they have a hobby and to take their mind away from things like work or family), years and years of conditioning a conformist, uncritical mind, and the tendency to not question the sensei. These "cultural" habits end up exuding a seeming lack of passion towards the subject and a mind that is unable to rightly divide information (i.e., resourcefulness). They are simply not trained to look at the core of things...only those who have transcended the cultural conditioning are able to see the essence of things and train it relentlessly. Within certain educational paradigms, are you able to reverse this cultural conditioning--if we consider the Shu-Ha-Ri method, I think it is only those who belong to the "inner circle" that are blessed with this reversal. But since Budo is often practised en-masse and only few are selected to the inner circle, those who are not in the circle have to suffer mediocrity after years of training.
That is, I train at home, and go to Tokyo when I can. Once money starts coming in, Im thinking of joining BJJ.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:08 PM   #85
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
That is, I train at home, and go to Tokyo when I can. Once money starts coming in, Im thinking of joining BJJ.
Why bjj? Are you interested in the art itself or do you feel there is a clean tie in to the internal skills?
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:38 PM   #86
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Why bjj? Are you interested in the art itself or do you feel there is a clean tie in to the internal skills?
Interested for pressure testing, where nobody knows what I'm training. Since aiki-related skills are borne out of grappling, I think it's best that I study and test and refine my skills through freestyle grappling.

As far as a connection to bodyskill--yes there is, I believe that, and I believe that BJJ guys at the highest level know some of this stuff intuitively. How much do they know? I am not sure.

But no, it doesn't have a clean tie to bodyskill because they do not have a curriculum of exercises where they specifically target these movement skills like Tai Chi or Aunkai or Daito Ryu does, at least not that I know of.

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Old 09-13-2011, 04:01 PM   #87
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
...."The Nairiki chapter was ommited..." Surprise!
Tobs, bet ya wish you could go back in time and buy that book now. Not that you needed it, but these tidbits to tie things together are priceless.
Hi Dan,

I most definitely wish I had forked out the 550+ dollars for the earlier edition of the book.

I don't think most present day budoka realize how much broad based martial knowledge was lost in the turbulent period following the Meiji Restoration. What survived did so in small quiet dojos, many in the countryside far away from the impact western teaching pedagogy was having on traditional Japanese knowledge transmission.

Pardon the drift but this is important info....

I have a copy of Erwin Bealz's book "Awakening Japan" which is a dairy of a German doctor working in Japan just before and after the Meiji Restoration. Dr Baelz had direct contact with many influential Japanese of the period and even attended to the imperial family. His book/diary is an amazing eyewitness account of Japan between 1876 and 1902 which powerfully illustrates how Japan discarded many elements of its cultural heritage in only a couple of decades.

One of the most amazing stories to appear in the book utterly destroys the famous myth that the Kodokan defeated all the old jujutsu schools in a great competiton. It seems Erwin Baelz was was an eyewitness to the competition! He was also the first official foreign student of Kinkichi Sakakibara in Jikishinkage ryu kenjutsu.

This eyewitness account is from page 74 of "Awakening Japan":

"The young professor Kano was especially active in the matter, and to him the renewed popularization of the old sport is especially due. He and his comrades were at length successful in inducing the university authorities to summon the jiujitsu expert from Chiba and a great jiujitsu contest took place. This made it clear how much training s needed to learn the art, for all the young men who had been working at it in Tokyo, not one, not even Kano, could cope with the police officers who had been trained by Totsuka in Chiba.

Next day old Totsuka, accompanied by his best student Sato, came to call on me and thank me for my exertions in the matter. I can still see him in imagination, this venerable old man, as, with tears running down his cheeks, he begged me for my photograph which he said he would treasure for the rest of his life. As a Japanese, he declared, it made him blush that a foreigner should have had to tell his countrymen that it was incumbent on them to revive jiujitsu; but now that he knew his beloved art would come into honor once again, he could die in peace"

Dr Bealz also mentions observing Totsuka's jiujitsu classes in Chiba and finding them to be a marvelous method of body training for health and strength.

This is all particularly important to us in TSYR as Erwin Bealz must have known and trained with the founder of TSYR, Matsuoka Katsunosuke. Matsuoka was a top student of both Sakakibara and Totsuka! Ahhhh....Had Baelz only written more about his experiences of training in budo during that period. He might have actually seen some Yoshin ryu nairiki training but one wonders if he would have understood what he was observing?

Toby Threadgill

Last edited by akiy : 09-14-2011 at 09:43 AM. Reason: Fixed date typo
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Old 09-13-2011, 05:11 PM   #88
DH
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Interesting reading. You might want to tie that into Takeda hanging out with Yoshin ryu guys as well. Another interesting tidbit to add to refute the Judo myth, is the shear volume of Police officers who took seminars from Takeda.
According to Tokimune (and later Kondo) both Takeda and Yoshida stated the police were in fact training in jujutsu, and most were heavily DR influenced. This is incongruent with the Kodokan's statements, as were this true, this was happening during the height of the supposed Judo revolution.
I don't trust what the Japanese say...over what they record; like their hanko in an eimoroku. IE. The aikikai stating Ueshiba blended his lengthy studies in koryu to create Aikido when we got to see the real deal in 23 years of his hanko in Takedas books. So for me, one is more compelling than the other.

As for people being able to see? The average guy, there is just no way. With internals it isn't ever going to happen. For some it was a sure bet. With some educated crowds, (to whatever extent this stuff existed in Japan) either internal or external it was the reason many of these guys didn't want their stuff on display. Hell they even created ways to display an intentionally false facade for folks to think they were seeing the real kata. For instance it would have been interesting to know what Yagyu thought he was defeating when he developed a Kata to defeat Nanatsu no maki.
All the best
Dan
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Old 09-14-2011, 10:39 AM   #89
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Tim Jester wrote: View Post
The only problem I have with all that is that none of them really agree on what is what so who do you listen to??
Sorry for being blunt, but as long as your only exposure to these skills is through a forum, it doesn't really matter who you believe.
As Lorel said: go meet people and find out for yourself.
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Old 09-14-2011, 06:59 PM   #90
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
BTW,

How do you know Mifune is showing IS watching him in an old movie

It has to be felt.
I'm not able to comment on Mifune this time around as I'm using my work computer which is unable to utilize youtube.

As others have said, if you have some experience you can see wether or not IS is being used. Lets look at the following 3 examples for a simple motion of turning the body from left to right.

1) The average guy on the street:
The average person on the street turns left to right by using their upper waist/torso, which pivots the upper body down to the knees. This is sort of top heavy if you use this motion to turn and propagate the motion on out to the arms.

Most people should be able to see this on a video.

2) The hips/koshi/inner thigh (Half IS?):

This guy turns left to right, by opening up the left hip and closing the right hip/inner thigh area. This is much more stable and strong for putting energy out into your arms. Some might call this IS, others might call it good martial movement.

Most people probably are not familiar with this movement, but could see it fairly easily if taught to see it in the matter of a few minutes.

3) Moving/iniateing with the middle (full IS?):

This person does number 2 (No Jokes Phi), but instead of initiating the movement solely with the hips and inner thigh, the iniate with the tanden and push/pull it towards the right which causes the motion to begin on out to the thighs.

this is a lot more difficult to see, particularily if the person has loose clothes on. I'm not sure if I would be able to see the difference between this and number 2, perhaps it is the scale by which the opponent is moved. Probably a lot more experienced person would recognize it (I'm no teacher) by watching.

Perhaps someone more expereinced than me can discern which of these Mifune is doing for some of his turns?
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Old 09-14-2011, 10:08 PM   #91
David Orange
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Any physical activity can be expressed and explained.

What I see in the Mifune video is Judo. He was very good of course but he's up against a lot of guys who weren't even close to his level. It's no wonder that none of them stand any chance of throwing him.
Who was at his level? Nobody, I think, but three or four people including Toku Sampo and Kano, himself. But Mifune was profound.

Still, even if the guys in the clips are nowhere near "his level," they're mostly quite a bit bigger and clearly "stronger" so they should have some chance of overpowering him.

So how does he just make that power roll off his back?

I think he had something beyond just excellent "techniques".

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 09-15-2011, 12:05 AM   #92
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

The bottom line is that you're just not going to overpower a highly skilled judo player no matter what you do. Also, they were just doing randori and not trying to fight, overpower or hurt anyone.

Mifune isn't letting them get a superior grip and he's not letting them fit in either. You can see exactly what Mifune's doing to stop their throws.

-

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Who was at his level? Nobody, I think, but three or four people including Toku Sampo and Kano, himself. But Mifune was profound.

Still, even if the guys in the clips are nowhere near "his level," they're mostly quite a bit bigger and clearly "stronger" so they should have some chance of overpowering him.

So how does he just make that power roll off his back?

I think he had something beyond just excellent "techniques".

Best to you.

David

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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