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Old 09-06-2011, 02:34 AM   #101
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Mary,
I guess when anyone over seventy is still training the person in question might well lack some synovial fluid in their joints.Knowing Mr Ellis well, I can attest to his longevity in Aikido.He is a fine example of a man who tries to protect the heritage of the art.He does not suffer fools gladly and calls it as he sees it. This is sometimes misconstrued by some.I find Mr Ellis quite refreshing and always
enjoy his contributions to the Forum.
Cheers, Joe.
Hi Joe
Its not so much a lack of knee lubricants -- more early signs of rigor mortis ..
There was I thinking I could pretend to be half my age - but there's no foolin Ms Mary with her super keen sensitivities.
Of course one can now see why Ms Mary is so protective of Graham with their own interpretation of Aikido, they appear to share a similar style ( without matching hats ) Who are we humble old timers to argue with a lady who is a `` Certified Master Instructor ``.

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:47 AM   #102
sorokod
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
Yes, right. The linking of Tony and Graham is interesting too. What is it about them that causes so many people to lose their centre, their equilibrium and their common sense and to make judgemental and sometimes offensive remarks? I think it's a nice ability.

So Graham stays centred. Tony does too. Draw your own conclusions about their aikido.
The ability to talk about Aikido is not to be confused with the ability to do Aikido. One is much easier then the other.

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Old 09-06-2011, 03:50 AM   #103
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Henry

Well, there is younger version of you around I recently saw a vid where you explained something and Rik displayed it at full speed (if I remember correctly jodantsuki irimi). Impressive, allthough it borders precariously on actual fighting (not surprisingly considering Rik's experience).
At some age the experience and wisdom is much more important than physical skill...certified...blablabla...proof is in the pudding!

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:01 AM   #104
niall
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
The ability to talk about Aikido is not to be confused with the ability to do Aikido. One is much easier then the other.
I'm not quite sure why I am quoted there. I didn't mention either of these abilities. I did mention two other abilities though. The ability to infuriate people so much that they lose their centre and the ability to stay centred themselves.

One of the other things I mentioned was being judgemental. You know, the can I help you with that 2 by 4 sticking out of your eye kind of judgemental. The other thing I mentioned was being offensive. I have never heard a high-ranked budoka from any martial art put down another budo or another style or another budoka. Never. So I draw my own conclusions about the people who post derogatory comments.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


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Old 09-06-2011, 05:39 AM   #105
sorokod
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
"One of the other things I mentioned was being judgemental."
Judgemental, as in making your opinion public? For some reason this is considered to be rude or perhaps politically incorrect, I do not subscribe to this approach and judging :-) from your post neither do you.
Quote:
"You know, the can I help you with that 2 by 4 sticking out of your eye kind of judgemental"
I do not understand this sentence, what does it mean?

Quote:
"I have never heard a high-ranked budoka from any martial art put down another budo or another style or another budoka. Never."
My experience is different.
Quote:
"So I draw my own conclusions about the people who post derogatory comments."
Naturally, one might even say that you judge people by their comments :-)

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Old 09-06-2011, 06:30 AM   #106
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
I have never heard a high-ranked budoka from any martial art put down another budo or another style or another budoka. Never.
You clearly have never met my teacher
All fun aside. Most high ranked teachers I have met often said: this is how I do it. You must find your way. But were very clear when you were doing it wrong (which in fact is judgemental). I have also met teachers that made comparisions to other styles to which they disagreed.

A small story
I remember my first ever seminar with Fujitsa and Kanetsuka Sensei. For those that do not know them, Fujitsa is quite a big fellow and Kanetsuka is a small guy (Ueshiba's posture). Their styles have adapted accordingly: one makes big movements, the other very small. They had class immediately after eachother. So when Kanetsuka finished and Fujitsa took over class he made fun of the small movements, told him he was trying to hide the secrets from us. Everyone laughed, including Kanetsuka. But off course in very good spirit, never putting down. Clearly with the highest mutual respect.

Quote:
So I draw my own conclusions about the people who post derogatory comments.
At least it shows were they stand, but I would rather not judge them on it.

Last edited by Tim Ruijs : 09-06-2011 at 06:42 AM.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:11 AM   #107
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Hello Tim,

Did you know that Masatake Fujita and Minoru Kanetsuka have a sempai / kohai relationship based on their membership of the Aikido club at Takushoku University? Gozo Shioda was the shihan at this university and I believe that Tanaka Shigeho was also a student.

I remember a grading examination in Holland, way back when Mr Bacas was active. M Kanetsuka (MK) was examining the kyu grade students, but M Fujita (MF), as the visiting shihan, had to be present at the tests. The morning kyu tests took for ages as MK went through the book. MF actually had knee problems and began to complain (to me, kneeling right beside him) about the time this was taking. In the afternoon MF held the dan examinations and everything was finished in about ten minutes.

Nothing was ever stated about the difference.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:13 AM   #108
niall
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

It's a simple point. In Japanese budo - in Japan anyway which is where I live - you are taught to respect other styles and other budoka. This is a quote from the dojo rules of a koryu.

Quote:
Rule 6. Please refrain from making negative comments in reference to other forms or styles of budo.
Shinbukan Kuroda Dojo Rules of Conduct

So if there are any derogatory comments they won't be from high-ranking budoka.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


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Old 09-06-2011, 07:46 AM   #109
Alex Megann
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I remember a grading examination in Holland, way back when Mr Bacas was active. M Kanetsuka (MK) was examining the kyu grade students, but M Fujita (MF), as the visiting shihan, had to be present at the tests. The morning kyu tests took for ages as MK went through the book. MF actually had knee problems and began to complain (to me, kneeling right beside him) about the time this was taking. In the afternoon MF held the dan examinations and everything was finished in about ten minutes.

Nothing was ever stated about the difference.

Best wishes,
Hi Peter,

That sums up the difference between my sandan and yondan grading examinations!

On the first occasion, it was a rare year at the BAF Summer School when we didn't have a visiting shihan from Hombu, so Kanetsuka Sensei led the grading himself, and - as you say - he wanted to make sure that anyone who passed was up to the mark. It was a very hot, humid week, and I was out on the tatami along with two yondan candidates; after two hours of every combination of attacks and ukes I was literally the last man standing, and even then a few days later I ended up at A&E with kidney stones.

On the second occasion, Fujita Sensei was in charge of the yudansha gradings. It had been a busy week and there had been more than the usual number of candidates for the preceding gradings. The four of us going for yondan came out nervously with our two assigned ukes and after the rei Fujita Sensei said "Anything!". After consultation among the grading committee, it was confirmed that Fujita Sensei wanted us to show whatever we liked, from any attack we chose. My heart sank, as I felt I was in for a long ordeal, and in my nervousness I knew I would forget half what I knew. After about fifteen minutes, Fujita Sensei called out "yame", and it was over! It turned out that his knees were particularly uncomfortable that morning....

Alex
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:50 AM   #110
phitruong
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
So if there are any derogatory comments they won't be from high-ranking budoka.
the art of insulting people using kind words is a long practice in asia that went way way back; thus you have the omote and ura. what nice in front, often isn't so.
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:18 AM   #111
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Tim,

Did you know that Masatake Fujita and Minoru Kanetsuka have a sempai / kohai relationship based on their membership of the Aikido club at Takushoku University? Gozo Shioda was the shihan at this university and I believe that Tanaka Shigeho was also a student.

I remember a grading examination in Holland, way back when Mr Bacas was active. M Kanetsuka (MK) was examining the kyu grade students, but M Fujita (MF), as the visiting shihan, had to be present at the tests. The morning kyu tests took for ages as MK went through the book. MF actually had knee problems and began to complain (to me, kneeling right beside him) about the time this was taking. In the afternoon MF held the dan examinations and everything was finished in about ten minutes.

Nothing was ever stated about the difference.

Best wishes,
I am very sorry for misprinting his name, Fujita Sensei.
Never knew this relationship. My nephew practised in the Kanetsuka lineage for a few years before I started Aikido. Actually it was because of my nephew I started Aikido in the first place. I had only had a handful (literally!) of lessons and went to summerschool (bought my first Gi there). Afterwards I found my way to the Tamura lineage by matter of chance (nearest teacher was in this lineage).

This was really decades ago. Must have been late eighties I guess. Yup, been fiddling around with Aikido that long already...still know nothing. DeDobbelear was also there. I remember him on the dance floor doing all kind of techniques like a dance, wonderful!

There was no statement on difference, they had a bit of fun isall.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:33 AM   #112
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Yes. In those days the politics was not about the kind of aikido practised; it was about the Dutch organizations.

PAG

P A Goldsbury
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:58 AM   #113
DH
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
It's a simple point. In Japanese budo - in Japan anyway which is where I live - you are taught to respect other styles and other budoka. This is a quote from the dojo rules of a koryu.

Shinbukan Kuroda Dojo Rules of Conduct

So if there are any derogatory comments they won't be from high-ranking budoka.
Oh Bull....
I have been in rooms with some of the highest ranked people out there. Their views and opinions about what has become a deplorable state of affairs in the Asian arts (JMA and ICMA) are very strong, even severe.
Again, budo is about an effective means to accomplish a goal. If you cannot deliver...the last thing you should be doing is advertising that fact in a video. Unfortunately, in the modern era, these gentle folks who continue to infect the Asian arts don't have a clue how truly bad they are. The good news (for them at least) is that they can avoid confronting their failures and lack of understanding and convince themselves they have achieved a level of understanding worth having.
All of this has contributed to ruining the reputation of the arts,
not helping them.

Budo was never this way. The entire sum of the history of budo was of being tested. Everyone goes on and on about the effectiveness of their teachers. Now we have to give every Mary and Johnny an "A" and tell them they are all equal so we don't hurt their feelings because they cannot perform or compete as equals to those who put in more time and did better work.
The martial arts have always had master class people who stood out against the budo wall paper. Never have I seen the wallpaper crying out to be equal of their betters...usually they just asked how to get better themselves.
Dan
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:17 AM   #114
Hellis
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Henry

Well, there is younger version of you around I recently saw a vid where you explained something and Rik displayed it at full speed (if I remember correctly jodantsuki irimi). Impressive, allthough it borders precariously on actual fighting (not surprisingly considering Rik's experience).
At some age the experience and wisdom is much more important than physical skill...certified...blablabla...proof is in the pudding!
Tim

A younger and more handsome version
Thanks for your comments - some people can't see beyond their key ring..

Henry Ellis
Article - Steven Seagal - Rik Ellis in " Fighters Only"
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:32 PM   #115
graham christian
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Graham

Glad to hear (read) you took some time to take a look at Alain. He is not too fond about videos. He does not want people to judge him based on some vid and perhaps dismiss it. He has similar feelings towards pictures. Hence not much material to work with...

Many forms/styles of Aikido exist which is no problem at all. Discussion occurs when making claims about something or other and that too is no problem. Like teaching to express your opinion makes you think about what you do (or think you should be doing), we interact, adapt and basically do Aikido...

To put up your vid shows cohones and makes you vulnerable. Respect.
Hi Tim.
Nicely put. I looked up Maruyama Sensei. Very good. I loved his kokyunage especially. I'm tempted to say 'that's what I'm talking about' but that's just me.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:21 AM   #116
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Oh Bull....
I have been in rooms with some of the highest ranked people out there. Their views and opinions about what has become a deplorable state of affairs in the Asian arts (JMA and ICMA) are very strong, even severe.
Again, budo is about an effective means to accomplish a goal. If you cannot deliver...the last thing you should be doing is advertising that fact in a video. Unfortunately, in the modern era, these gentle folks who continue to infect the Asian arts don't have a clue how truly bad they are. The good news (for them at least) is that they can avoid confronting their failures and lack of understanding and convince themselves they have achieved a level of understanding worth having.
All of this has contributed to ruining the reputation of the arts,
not helping them.

Budo was never this way. The entire sum of the history of budo was of being tested. Everyone goes on and on about the effectiveness of their teachers. Now we have to give every Mary and Johnny an "A" and tell them they are all equal so we don't hurt their feelings because they cannot perform or compete as equals to those who put in more time and did better work.
The martial arts have always had master class people who stood out against the budo wall paper. Never have I seen the wallpaper crying out to be equal of their betters...usually they just asked how to get better themselves.
Dan
I gave a specific example from kobudo and it's bull? But I thought you didn't do aikido. Difficult to tell really because you don't post a profile or a video as someone else pointed out. A couple of people have told me positive things about meeting you in person which is why I didn't just hit the ignore button immediately. Well I doubt if jazz musicians pay much attention to the opinions of folk musicians about jazz either.

Who is giving A's here or anywhere? If you treat people with respect you can be constructive without being derogatory. When this was first posted I sent Graham a list of technical points to think about. It's up to him whether he wants to. But aikido is big enough and wide enough and deep enough to embrace many philosophies and approaches, not just the ones you or I think are best.

In fact maybe this discussion is just a difference in philosophy. You seem to think that there are a lot of bad aikidoka out there. Well I don't. Just aikidoka who don't understand very well yet. If they keep training sincerely they will one day. If they are not training sincerely now maybe they will one day.

I don't agree with the point about videos of softer styles ruining the reputation of aikido. Serious budoka know that there are some great aikidoka. Who cares what other people think.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


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Old 09-11-2011, 03:44 AM   #117
graham christian
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Well said Niall.
Indeed you did on first posting send me some technical points to consider, I remember them well. All I am given I receive in the spirit from which it is given and yours were given in good spirit.

Different philosophies and different approaches indeed.

I can still smile at the fact that these videos still bring about discussion. Mainly by those who think they know what's happening in them. Thus I can learn much.

As I am the only one who knows what is being done at each moment then they serve to show me who is assuming, who doesn't understand them, who is curious, who can give pertinent communication.

Putting up a video can lead to much learning by the the poster.

In fact the whole question of how can 'softness' be martial is one that those asking the question need to learn the answer to in my opinion. But I digress.

As Aikido as I see it should lead to a more stable, active (yet unreactive) considerate individual then you portray the spirit of Aikido.

Oh, and not to forget a good sense of humour. So when you have reached your highest belt ranking then you can move onto hats.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-11-2011, 05:03 AM   #118
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Tim.
Nicely put. I looked up Maruyama Sensei. Very good. I loved his kokyunage especially. I'm tempted to say 'that's what I'm talking about' but that's just me.
The teacher I mentioned was Nobuyoshi Tamura. So I am a bit confused how Maruyama came up.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-11-2011, 05:50 AM   #119
graham christian
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
The teacher I mentioned was Nobuyoshi Tamura. So I am a bit confused how Maruyama came up.
Apologies Tim.
You tell me Nikkyo and I do Sankyo. Ha, ha.

So I just watched some of Nobuyoshi Tamura and they looked great. I liked his calmness and the change from calmness to action. I felt his movement was very relaxed and fluid yet definite. Technically superb. What more can I say? Except by watching the effect he seemed to have on the Audiences let alone the uke's and his general demeaner he seems like he was also a great man.May he rest in peace.

http://youtu.be/Uk9YCofJHkg

Regards.G.
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Old 09-11-2011, 05:54 AM   #120
Hellis
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Well said Niall.

As I am the only one who knows what is being done at each moment then they serve to show me who is assuming, who doesn't understand them, who is curious, who can give pertinent communication.
Putting up a video can lead to much learning by the the poster.
Regards.G.
Graham

You really do undermine the knowledge and experience that many posters on this forum have, to suggest that `` only you understand what is being done `` ..It is obvious to me what is being done - not much.

Henry Ellis
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Old 09-11-2011, 06:16 AM   #121
graham christian
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Graham

You really do undermine the knowledge and experience that many posters on this forum have, to suggest that `` only you understand what is being done `` ..It is obvious to me what is being done - not much.

Henry Ellis
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Really? How so?
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Old 09-11-2011, 06:57 AM   #122
Marc Abrams
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
I gave a specific example from kobudo and it's bull? But I thought you didn't do aikido. Difficult to tell really because you don't post a profile or a video as someone else pointed out. A couple of people have told me positive things about meeting you in person which is why I didn't just hit the ignore button immediately. Well I doubt if jazz musicians pay much attention to the opinions of folk musicians about jazz either.

Who is giving A's here or anywhere? If you treat people with respect you can be constructive without being derogatory. When this was first posted I sent Graham a list of technical points to think about. It's up to him whether he wants to. But aikido is big enough and wide enough and deep enough to embrace many philosophies and approaches, not just the ones you or I think are best.

In fact maybe this discussion is just a difference in philosophy. You seem to think that there are a lot of bad aikidoka out there. Well I don't. Just aikidoka who don't understand very well yet. If they keep training sincerely they will one day. If they are not training sincerely now maybe they will one day.

I don't agree with the point about videos of softer styles ruining the reputation of aikido. Serious budoka know that there are some great aikidoka. Who cares what other people think.
Niall:

You have met several people who have had "hands on" with Dan. Have you met anybody who has had "hands on" with the original poster? Opinions of people you know should indicate something.

Uncle Darwin is handing out grades. The world history of conflicts is filled with the graves of many who could not adequately do and less so of those who could do. Those that could do passed on skill sets, knowledge, etc... Regardless of how big or small the "Aikido umbrella" is, there is still the underlying reality that cannot be escaped. Does it genuinely work? Is it budo? Dan and others are not talking about philosophy, but about the work product.

Toby Threadgill's teacher talked about practicing something wrong 1 million times does not make you any better. Training sincerely in the wrong direction usually never helps.

As far as soft goes, I would venture to say that Dan is far softer in what he does that most people you will meet in the martial arts world. The genuine effectiveness of what he does more than speaks for itself. That is why so many well-informed people in the martial arts world train with him.

Henry Ellis neatly described one of the many perceive "problems" with the original poster: You really do undermine the knowledge and experience that many posters on this forum have, to suggest that `` only you understand what is being done `` ..It is obvious to me what is being done - not much.

Pretty much sums it up in my book. Oh well, off to change for a day of working with Dan....

Marc Abrams
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:20 AM   #123
MM
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Graham

You really do undermine the knowledge and experience that many posters on this forum have, to suggest that `` only you understand what is being done `` ..It is obvious to me what is being done - not much.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
Mr. Ellis,
Hello. Your post made me laugh. Thank you for that. Your direct manner is refreshing and, IMO, spot on.

Best to you,
Mark
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:27 AM   #124
graham christian
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Mr. Ellis,
Hello. Your post made me laugh. Thank you for that. Your direct manner is refreshing and, IMO, spot on.

Best to you,
Mark
Spot on indeed.
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Old 09-11-2011, 03:14 PM   #125
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Niall:

You have met several people who have had "hands on" with Dan. Have you met anybody who has had "hands on" with the original poster? Opinions of people you know should indicate something.

Uncle Darwin is handing out grades. The world history of conflicts is filled with the graves of many who could not adequately do and less so of those who could do. Those that could do passed on skill sets, knowledge, etc... Regardless of how big or small the "Aikido umbrella" is, there is still the underlying reality that cannot be escaped. Does it genuinely work? Is it budo? Dan and others are not talking about philosophy, but about the work product.

Toby Threadgill's teacher talked about practicing something wrong 1 million times does not make you any better. Training sincerely in the wrong direction usually never helps.

As far as soft goes, I would venture to say that Dan is far softer in what he does that most people you will meet in the martial arts world. The genuine effectiveness of what he does more than speaks for itself. That is why so many well-informed people in the martial arts world train with him.

Henry Ellis neatly described one of the many perceive "problems" with the original poster: You really do undermine the knowledge and experience that many posters on this forum have, to suggest that `` only you understand what is being done `` ..It is obvious to me what is being done - not much.

Pretty much sums it up in my book. Oh well, off to change for a day of working with Dan....

Marc Abrams
Interesting. So video of someone does equal you know then?

Mmmm. Saying you know as the doer undermines those who have never met you. Mmmmm.

Methinks there's a different definition of knowing being used. I'm quite happy knowing I can watch a video and know I don't actually know.

I can also say for instance your view I don't understand. Nothing wrong with saying you don't understand unless ego gets in the way.

Have fun.G.
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