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Old 09-09-2011, 04:13 PM   #126
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
The other tricks are just that, tricks,... either that or they are the complete opposite: important learning tools and demonstrations of learnt body skill.
Hi Keith -

They are indeed important learning tools. The exercises involving pushing, pulling, lifting and compressing when practiced with progressively increased applied force allow the student to directly experience the principles and strengthen mind/body coordination. All the partnered exercises can be performed both statically and in motion.

The problem, I think, is that most people only experience the demonstration mode of the exercises, which makes sense since the're generally not taught outside of Ki Aikido (and Ki Aikido offshoot styles). The exercises are therefore seen as tricks to wow the audience while their applicability as development tools goes unnoticed.

Best,

Ron

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Old 09-09-2011, 04:35 PM   #127
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
They are indeed important learning tools. The exercises involving pushing, pulling, lifting and compressing when practiced with progressively increased applied force allow the student to directly experience the principles and strengthen mind/body coordination. All the partnered exercises can be performed both statically and in motion.
Hi Ron,

good points, recently my teacher was saying that there is no difference between 'ki development exercises' and aikido, they are the same thing. Aikido is myriad of dynamic ki development exercises. And this from someone who spent the early years of his practice doing very martially effective aikido.

Quote:
The problem, I think, is that most people only experience the demonstration mode of the exercises, which makes sense since the're generally not taught outside of Ki Aikido (and Ki Aikido offshoot styles). The exercises are therefore seen as tricks to wow the audience while their applicability as development tools goes unnoticed.
good point, also.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 09-09-2011, 07:44 PM   #128
JO
Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
Location: Sainte-Catherine-de-la-J.-C., Québec
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 292
Canada
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well perhaps we should consider Jonathan's thoughtful and carefully considered reply. Perhaps I am a coward.
Let's see
After 21 years of teaching MMA and weapons, after 316 students, after walking into rooms full of strangers -.786 Seminar attendees- some of whom were hostile and with no ukes of my own, (something which almost none of your teachers do, including Ueshiba, who traveled with his entourage) with 11 Shihan, Menkyo's, and so many 4 and 5th dans. and going head to head with ICMA master class teachers, and guys with established fight records...I think you need to make a more substantial and reasoned argument to be considered credible.
Maybe, just maybe, though it may seem incredible, there are other reasons I don't produce video.
My comment has been blown out of proportion. I doubt you are a coward in general. But I have trouble with some of your behavior on this board. You don't hold back from putting others down, but you react rather strongly to any comment aimed at you. It might help me understand you better if you simply explained why you approach this online community the way you do. For example, not putting up videos. In this particular case, you brought up videos of those you have no respect for, and I couldn't help thinking "OK, show me better". I actually tend to agree that the videos you criticized are good examples of training that has minimal interest, at least to me.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
My turn
So Jonathan, please continue to turn your discerning eye this way, if you please.
In your thoughtful and considered opinion;
1. After my strong opinions being voiced on the aiki arts for almost two decades, the same critiques that raised your ire, why do you suppose that I enjoy the support in those views by such a broad range of expert opinion who have met and trained with me? How does that happen Jonathan?
I never said I disagreed with your opinions, by the way. It just seemed to me that you were taking shots at people while hiding behind thick cover. Maybe I overeacted, especially with the "C" word. But I don't think I overreacted nearly as strongly as you and some of your supporters have.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
2. Since you also questioned my limiting my access?
Why do these teacherse; from Europe to Hawaii, from Seattle to Florida and their own students, now train with me?
Presumably because they feel you have something to teach them. I have already stated on other threads that I would very much like to meet you in person and see/feel what all the talk is about.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
3. Why am I doing this and limiting the small amount of money I make by keeping the numbers small (and getting yelled at for that to boot). Why Jonathan, am I keeping the numbers down to 20- 25per session?
Presumably because you feel what you teach is best transmitted in that way. However, plenty of people do small seminars that are more or less public. I've been to at least one seminar with an Aikikai shihan with less than 20 people present. I agree that this is a great way to learn, with so much direct attention by the teacher possible.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Last
4. Who do you know who learned budo correctly from video______________?

Since you cared to offer them so freely-care to enlighten us with more thoughtful views on these questions?
Dan
I don't think you can really learn any body art from video. I don't want to see video of you to learn your method. Just to get a better idea of who I'm interacting with. The best thing Jun ever did on this board is make everybody use their real names. Everyone always understands eachother better after meating in person (just see the thread on the California meet-up). That is not always possible. Video interactions can help. This is my opinion. Obviously you disagree. Though you do seem to believe you can judge others based on video.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 09-09-2011, 08:20 PM   #129
Chris Li
 
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Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,087
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
Presumably because you feel what you teach is best transmitted in that way. However, plenty of people do small seminars that are more or less public. I've been to at least one seminar with an Aikikai shihan with less than 20 people present. I agree that this is a great way to learn, with so much direct attention by the teacher possible.
Taking applications for Honolulu in November right now...

http://aikidosangenkai.org/news.html

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-09-2011, 08:29 PM   #130
JO
Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
Location: Sainte-Catherine-de-la-J.-C., Québec
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Taking applications for Honolulu in November right now...

http://aikidosangenkai.org/news.html

Best,

Chris
Your invite appeals to me on so many levels. But this middle class father of three young children, with a mortgage and a full time job is unlikely to make it to Honolulu in the next decade, never mind the next three months. To be clear, these are priorities, not excuses, that I'm mentioning.

I haven't made it to a seminar further than Ottawa from the province of Quebec (Ottawa's just one bridge from my province, and I have family there to feed and house me).

Jonathan Olson
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Old 09-09-2011, 08:37 PM   #131
Chris Li
 
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Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
Your invite appeals to me on so many levels. But this middle class father of three young children, with a mortgage and a full time job is unlikely to make it to Honolulu in the next decade, never mind the next three months. To be clear, these are priorities, not excuses, that I'm mentioning.

I haven't made it to a seminar further than Ottawa from the province of Quebec (Ottawa's just one bridge from my province, and I have family there to feed and house me).
Of course, I feel your pain - but then you can't complain about not having acess right?

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-09-2011, 08:58 PM   #132
JO
Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
Location: Sainte-Catherine-de-la-J.-C., Québec
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 292
Canada
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Of course, I feel your pain - but then you can't complain about not having acess right?

Best,

Chris
Complaining, like not putting up videos, is something everyone has the right to do, as no one can stop you.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 03-06-2014, 09:18 AM   #133
CindyGoldman
Join Date: Mar 2014
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

I just want to express my views after reading the various comments below.

1) Firstly Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido refers to the teaching of Aikido developed by Sensei Tohei and commonly referred to in the West as Ki Aikido. However there are numerous schools out there that teach "Ki Aikido" with different emphasis and priorities. Thus I have met students out there that are literally practicing a different form of aikido albeit they refer to it as "Ki Aikido".

2) The Ki principles from Sensei Tohei are extremely effective in a martial sense. However it is one of those things that has to be mastered - it's a case of all or nothing. Therefore beginners in the art sometimes struggle to extend Ki correctly and thus their martial technique may seem ineffective. Furthermore Ki principles can be separated from the martial Ki techniques taught. You can apply Ki principles to various martial techniques, Krav Maga, Jujitsu, etc. (See Shin Shin Toitsu & Golf).

3) In a real street fight your state of mind is generally more important than the perfection of a martial technique. Ki principles place a lot of emphasis upon meditation and oneness with the universe, similar to the idea of “no mind” and totally present. This state of mind is very important when faced with a life or death or high stake situation, e.g. fighting, financial trading, rock climbing, etc. I have seen a lot of so-called martial arts experts on the streets forgetting the rule that generally the first attack normally comes from an unseen opponent from behind.

4) I believe most aikido techniques practiced in the dojo are merely ideal forms and have to be adapted in a real street fight. For example consider the classic nage knife thrust attack, nage always lunges forward with the knife hand first. From my own experience on the streets I typically find that an attacker with just a little experience but real intent of stabbing you will try to attack you first with the empty hand to grab hold of you. However unless your speed and technique is perfect which is very difficult in real life, whilst you are focused on their empty hand, in less than half a second they could be thrusting the knife in to your kidney with the other hand.

Last edited by CindyGoldman : 03-06-2014 at 09:21 AM.
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