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Old 09-08-2011, 10:31 PM   #101
gregstec
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
I had my first Ki Aikido class the other day while on a business trip.The teacher was much less experience in aikido than myself and only sees his aikido teacher rarely (due to geographical isolation). But I found myself impressed with the ability to show and demonstrate aspects of relaxation and extension that are key to all good aikido using the basic ki exercises he had learned. These are things I often have trouble communicating with beginners.

On the martial aspect of things. This particular instructor is a senior black belt in an independent modern jiu jitsu (their spelling) dojo and has quite a bit of experience in more aggressive fighting takes on the martial arts. Personally, I wouldn't want to pick a fight with him, or many of his students (most of which also come from the jiu jitsu group).

Honestly. I find all the politics and style comparisons detrimental to aikido. If we all trained together a bit more and used such occasions to exchange notes rather than worry about who's instructor was stronger and perpetuating splits and arguments between earlier generations, we would all benefit.

PS - Dan, for a guy that spends quite a bit of time trashing the videos of others, I'm starting to find your failure to show anything of your own practice on these boards cowardly.
Jonathan, overall a very good post, some good points in the beginning - however, your last paragraph is in extremely bad taste, and IMO, comes across as immature and very unprofessional.

There are many reasons why Dan, and others, do not do videos - some of these reasons have been expressed before, but are mostly ignored by the 'MTV' generation - sorry, but that is just not the style of some of us that came before that generation.

IMO, videos do not teach and really are only good as marketing demos, especially when dealing with the internal stuff - and contrary to some opinions, we are not marketing anything because we are not making any money off of anything. If you want to know what we are about, come see us - my door is always open and I do not charge any fees - hell, I even travel at no fee for those that have a sincere interest in getting together, just ask my new friends down in Maryland about that!

Bottom line is to respect the reasons of those that do not do videos nor pictures, and do not expect them to have the same opinion of those type of things just because you do.

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 09-08-2011 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 09-08-2011, 10:38 PM   #102
Gorgeous George
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I've taken sudafed, can't breathe, can't sleep, and my head is fuzzy. So, please allow for some sarcasm to break through.

Ellis Amdur - Anyone not know him? There's not enough room to talk about what he's done and who he's trained with.

Bill Gleason - Uh, highly respected aikido instructor. Trained in Japan with some very good people.

George Ledyard - Anyone not know him? Highly respected aikido instructor who has trained with some very good people.

Allen Beebe - Trained with Shirata. Highly respected aikido instructor but, sadly, not as well known. A diamond in hiding.

Howard Popkin & Joe Brogna - More and more people know Howard. Joe hides in the shadows, but everyone who trains with these two are enriched by the experience. Quality all around.

Chris Li - Been around awhile and I keep hearing great things about him. I hope to meet him soon. He also has some very good people around him that have also "been round the block" a time or two.

Unnamed highly ranked dan aikido instructors - You don't get that high by being stupid. I've only met a few of them and the ones I met are very good people. Highly respected aikido instructors.

My sincerest apologies to the people in the Europe. I've not met you but have heard good things about you. So, I can't say too much about you. I'm hoping to get the chance to meet everyone over there.

A very highly skilled Chen style master level teacher.

So, okay, now let's skip down to some not so highly ranked people who are still respected and skilled: Gary Welborn, Greg Steckle, Rob Liberti, Stan Baker. These are the ones who have posted here at some point. There are probably a hundred or more that haven't but could be included.

Sadly enough, the list isn't complete because I've purposefully left out a lot of people from a koryu. Sorry, I don't know enough about koryu to say anything either on the subject or the people. You wanna know, ask around. I also didn't include anyone from karate, taiji, etc. And Apologies to anyone I missed listing. Been a rough day for me.

So, what do these hundreds of people have in common? It's actually fairly easy to answer. They *never* needed a video.

Now, imagine being in a room with all these people and telling them to their face that they should have demanded a video. Who are *you* to tell aikido shihan what they should or should not have done? Let alone the other hundreds of highly ranked martial artists. I'm sick of hearing about not seeing a "video".

Maybe instead of making demands for the mountain to come to you, it might, just might be a much better choice to seek out the mountain? As your teachers, your peers, your betters, your shihan in the aikido world have done. At the very least, check out things behind the scenes like most competent budo people do before getting "foot in mouth" disease.

Sorry, tolerance is low tonight. I'm going to miss training and I'm ticked. These are my friends I'll miss seeing. Crap, I hate getting sick...
That some of those respected aikidoka train with Dan Harden, and speak highly of him, is why I will attend one of his seminars, should I get the chance; their opinions are surely at least as good a recommendation as a video...?
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Old 09-08-2011, 10:50 PM   #103
gregstec
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
That some of those respected aikidoka train with Dan Harden, and speak highly of him, is why I will attend one of his seminars, should I get the chance; their opinions are surely at least as good a recommendation as a video...?
Better than a video - those opinions have FELT what can never be shown on a video

Greg
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Old 09-09-2011, 06:16 AM   #104
JO
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Hey, he doesn't want to put up a video, that's fine. But I get tired of people who constantly criticize others while putting up nothing of themselves. He leaves nothing at all to judge his knowledge or abilities by, but constantly belittles the abilities and knowledge of others.

I dont see the others on your list doing that Mark.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 09-09-2011, 06:20 AM   #105
JO
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

PS - From the accounts of others, I'm sure he could have much more to add to these exchanges. But he chooses to limit access to himself. I think it's a shame.

Again, I wouldn't have brought up the video in this thread if he hadn't spent much of this thread putting links to other's videos, implying they were examples of bad martial arts.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 09-09-2011, 06:45 AM   #106
stan baker
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

When your at Dan's level and willing to teach anybody you can do what ever. Go see for yourself then you will understand.

stan
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Old 09-09-2011, 06:58 AM   #107
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Stan Baker wrote: View Post
When your at Dan's level and willing to teach anybody you can do what ever. Go see for yourself then you will understand.

stan
I'm sure Dan doesn't want or need you to build him up with nonsense like this...
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Old 09-09-2011, 07:04 AM   #108
gates
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

The thread is dead. Long live the thread !

Enjoy the journey
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Old 09-09-2011, 07:17 AM   #109
stan baker
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Hi Jason
It is not just about Dan it is about people removing the blinders so they stop making stupid comments. I could use my taiji teacher Wang Hai Jun to make the same point. Go feel the best people.
Do that and the conversations will have some meaning.

stan
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Old 09-09-2011, 07:33 AM   #110
chillzATL
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Jason
It is not just about Dan it is about people removing the blinders so they stop making stupid comments. I could use my taiji teacher Wang Hai Jun to make the same point. Go feel the best people.
Do that and the conversations will have some meaning.

stan
When you say things like you did or like you've said in the past, YOU make it about Dan and not in a positive way.
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Old 09-09-2011, 07:36 AM   #111
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Think for yourself, learn to judge properly...

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-09-2011, 07:41 AM   #112
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
PS - From the accounts of others, I'm sure he could have much more to add to these exchanges. But he chooses to limit access to himself. I think it's a shame.

Again, I wouldn't have brought up the video in this thread if he hadn't spent much of this thread putting links to other's videos, implying they were examples of bad martial arts.
I seriously dont get this line of thinking. If someone criticizes someone on video, that person automically has the burden to post a video of his own? Huh?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 09-09-2011, 07:45 AM   #113
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
I seriously dont get this line of thinking. If someone criticizes someone on video, that person automically has the burden to post a video of his own? Huh?
Agreed. Makes no sense.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-09-2011, 08:50 AM   #114
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
I seriously dont get this line of thinking. If someone criticizes someone on video, that person automically has the burden to post a video of his own? Huh?
Hello Lorel,

Why is this automatic?

I remember having severe arguments with my very first aikido teacher, who was a Japanese ultranationalist and believed in a very conservative way of teaching. He argued that you were not able to criticize your teacher unless you were able to improve on what he was teaching. This argument (wrongly) assumes that knowing something and teaching it are identical. Of, course it might well be that teaching is a good method of gaining knowledge, but the two are not the same. I think in most universities students are called upon to evaluate their teachers, but this in no way implies that they themselves can do better.

Now transfer the argument to writing books or articles, or posting videos. If these are published, they are in the public domain and thereby subject to the opinions of those who happen to read or see them. However, the next step, that those who criticize have some kind of obligation to support their criticism with the same kind of offering, be it a book, article, or video, is not at all automatic. You might think they should do this, but there is no automatic obligation here.

The reverse of this, that unless you are prepared to put up your own video, or publish a book or article, you have no right to criticize an existing one, is clearly invalid. If it were a valid argument, it would inhibit a vast amount of valuable research.

I think part of the problem here is the nature of the medium itself. Videos of aikido show only so much and there is a vast argument about what they actually show. As a medium, books and articles are less likely to deceive. But even here, there were comments about Budo Renshuu, when it appeared in 1933. It made sense only if you could do the waza already.

This being said, I am very glad that Akuzawa Sensei made videos of his exercises. They form the basis of my own private training. However, since I live so far from Tokyo, I cannot check whether my own understanding of what he teaches in the videos is correct.

Best wishes,

P Goldsbury

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Old 09-09-2011, 09:58 AM   #115
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
If someone criticizes someone on video, that person automically has the burden to post a video of his own?
Of course not. Unless this someone affirms he/she can do better.

Then this someone could be asked to provide proof about his/her statements, be it video, witnessess, personal interaction, etc., you know... the usual means for proving claims.

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Old 09-09-2011, 10:19 AM   #116
sorokod
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Of course not. Unless this someone affirms he/she can do better.

Then this someone could be asked to provide proof about his/her statements, be it video, witnessess, personal interaction, etc., you know... the usual means for proving claims.
Not necessarily. Consider for example people who are eager, for reasons know best only to themselves, to expose their lives on Jerry Springer and similar TV shows. According to this logic one should not criticize them without providing a supporting video evidence proving that one could do better.

-- david
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Old 09-09-2011, 10:29 AM   #117
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
Not necessarily.

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Old 09-09-2011, 11:03 AM   #118
Chris Li
 
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Of course not. Unless this someone affirms he/she can do better.

Then this someone could be asked to provide proof about his/her statements, be it video, witnessess, personal interaction, etc., you know... the usual means for proving claims.
For the "someone" in question there have been numerous witnesses and ample opportunities for personal interaction.

There are plenty of people with video out who get questioned regularly - it doesn't seem to provide any real level of "proof".

And if you could actually learn much from the videos then we wouldn't need all these discussions, right? There's plenty of video available on people with good stuff.

OTOH, another "someone" (but not the "someone" in question) once advised me - what ever you do, don't put up any video of yourself, it just stirs up the peanut gallery.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-09-2011, 11:09 AM   #119
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
For the "someone" in question there have been numerous witnesses and ample opportunities for personal interaction.
Problem solved then. Isn't it.

Like I said before:

Quote:
...the usual means for proving claims

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Old 09-09-2011, 11:14 AM   #120
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
And Apologies to anyone I missed listing. Been a rough day for me.
In my delusional state, I forgot to list Marc Abrams. One of the people I was going to train with this weekend. I'll use lack of oxygen as my excuse. Marc started training with Imaizumi in 1988. And he's currently training with Ushiro. Marc's a great guy and an excellent teacher.

And for those Monty Python fans, "I'm getting better" "I feel happy".
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Old 09-09-2011, 12:41 PM   #121
gates
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Hate is a strong emotion which I generally reserve for really bad people - generally they are not Ki Aikido people.

Tohei's principles are really very sound and quite succinctly cover a lot of turf. All Aikidoka should be aware of what he said, it is useful stuff. Whether the teaching model lends itself well to teaching those skills is another question entirely. (Tohei didn't learn via Tohei .... Or did He!?!?!?!?)

Acting naturally and calmly with a good base in a relaxed stable body and mind really is the key. The other tricks are just that, tricks,... either that or they are the complete opposite: important learning tools and demonstrations of learnt body skill.

As a little kid I used to play think "think heavy - think light !!" with my big brother (Tohei inspired game) and we would try to pick each other up. Great fun.

Enjoy the journey
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Old 09-09-2011, 01:09 PM   #122
DH
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Well perhaps we should consider Jonathan's thoughtful and carefully considered reply. Perhaps I am a coward.
Let's see
After 21 years of teaching MMA and weapons, after 316 students, after walking into rooms full of strangers -.786 Seminar attendees- some of whom were hostile and with no ukes of my own, (something which almost none of your teachers do, including Ueshiba, who traveled with his entourage) with 11 Shihan, Menkyo's, and so many 4 and 5th dans. and going head to head with ICMA master class teachers, and guys with established fight records...I think you need to make a more substantial and reasoned argument to be considered credible.
Maybe, just maybe, though it may seem incredible, there are other reasons I don't produce video.

My turn
So Jonathan, please continue to turn your discerning eye this way, if you please.
In your thoughtful and considered opinion;
1. After my strong opinions being voiced on the aiki arts for almost two decades, the same critiques that raised your ire, why do you suppose that I enjoy the support in those views by such a broad range of expert opinion who have met and trained with me? How does that happen Jonathan?
2. Since you also questioned my limiting my access?
Why do these teacherse; from Europe to Hawaii, from Seattle to Florida and their own students, now train with me?
3. Why am I doing this and limiting the small amount of money I make by keeping the numbers small (and getting yelled at for that to boot). Why Jonathan, am I keeping the numbers down to 20- 25per session?

Last
4. Who do you know who learned budo correctly from video______________?

Since you cared to offer them so freely-care to enlighten us with more thoughtful views on these questions?
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-09-2011 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 09-09-2011, 01:11 PM   #123
DH
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Hate is a strong emotion which I generally reserve for really bad people - generally they are not Ki Aikido people.

Tohei's principles are really very sound and quite succinctly cover a lot of turf. All Aikidoka should be aware of what he said, it is useful stuff. Whether the teaching model lends itself well to teaching those skills is another question entirely. (Tohei didn't learn via Tohei .... Or did He!?!?!?!?)

Acting naturally and calmly with a good base in a relaxed stable body and mind really is the key. The other tricks are just that, tricks,... either that or they are the complete opposite: important learning tools and demonstrations of learnt body skill.

As a little kid I used to play think "think heavy - think light !!" with my big brother (Tohei inspired game) and we would try to pick each other up. Great fun.
Wait a minute
Just like Ueshiba, we need to carefully separate Toheis very real skill, from the reasons that people do not like the effort of so many of his students.
He knew what he was doing.
Dan
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Old 09-09-2011, 01:17 PM   #124
gates
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Wait a minute
Just like Ueshiba, we need to carefully separate Toheis very real skill, from the reasons that people do not like the effort of so many of his students.
He knew what he was doing.
Dan
Isn't that EXACTLY what I just said?

Last edited by gates : 09-09-2011 at 01:28 PM.

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Old 09-09-2011, 01:26 PM   #125
DH
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Isn't that EXACTLY what I just said?
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