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Old 07-06-2011, 08:59 PM   #76
jeremymcmillan
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

This is my favorite throw! At my dojo, it's called "kokyunage" like so many other different techniques. I recently learned some secrets of this technique. OTOH, I'm a beginner and maybe I'm suggesting very bad things. I submit to the collective wisdom of the forum .

First, this is the AWA canon: taisabaki, taisabaki, taisabaki. It's a tenkan technique. For it to work, nage must have footwork to match the reach/velocity of uke's attack entry. Second, approach this like it was shihonage, and in fact it's great to do a few shihonage first to get things working.

Like shihonage, Uke's attacking arm will be rotated in a kotegaesh direction to reduce degrees of freedom in uke's arm. Nage has to grasp Uke crosshand, from underneath, with an upturned palm to be able to manupulate Uke's arm easily. Nage wants Uke's back to begin arching. It can help with form for Nage to get under Uke's attacking arm to apply upward pressure on Uke's attacking elbow as the tenkan brings Uke alongside. This is where Uke's balance is taken. Try this: if Nage doesn't get Uke's balance here, Uke can reverse with a sayu undo movement like sokumen iriminage.

So far, this is all like shihonage, but Nage can keep the crosshand grasp, with the kote-gaesh typerotation locking up Uke's arm to upper spine, and let go with the other hand. Nage, in this situation, has lots of options. If nage wants Uke to fall backwards, it's shihonage, but if Nage wants Uke to fall forwards, Nage uses ushirotori undo movement with a sliding step to give Uke some energy in the throw.

Shouldering into Uke's elbow will hyperextend the joint and is not cool on the mat. Uke is often a LOT taller than me, so I use more torque on the arm, and I try to bring Uke's upper arm down to my shoulder, and cut obliquely down like yokomenuchi, allowing my back foot to sweep behind me with the hip rotation. With shorter Uke, the throw can be more linear.

I'm not sure, but it seems like this could be like a kotegaesh breakfall for Uke if the throw has too much power/rotation. The forward slide into the projection seems to be an Aiki attenuation of the technique.
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:27 PM   #77
Reuben
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

I had a pretty high ranking Shihan do this on me but it didn't work I felt a forward projection but could easily post. I asked him to do it twice but didn't want to push it further for fear of offending.

Now you would say, well if he had really tried, then he would have broken your arm to which I would say, then my initial suspicion that it's a elbow break technique was correct.

Now, interestingly, I tried this on some yudansha and asked them to resist and it had VERY different effects. When they tried to resist, it resulted in them almost smacking their face on their knee.

However when trying on my boxing sparring partners, I couldn't get the desired effect even when simulating ideal break of posture. One of the problems is that fighters are taught to resquare their hips to their opponent as fast as possible, making taisabaki, tenkan extremely difficult. Even some newbies who have a good innate fight sense do this.
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Old 07-07-2011, 08:27 AM   #78
Amir Krause
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
I had a pretty high ranking Shihan do this on me but it didn't work I felt a forward projection but could easily post. I asked him to do it twice but didn't want to push it further for fear of offending.

Now you would say, well if he had really tried, then he would have broken your arm to which I would say, then my initial suspicion that it's a elbow break technique was correct.
At least the way I learn Aikido, all techniques should create damage when applied with full force and speed against an attacker who is not prepared to the technique. Then once again, I practice Korindo and not Ueshiba Aikido, my way is not your way ...

As for the encounter with the Shihan and your feeling of his in-sufficient technique, the same reasons I wrote below, about you, also aply to him.
Plus if he were teaching, he may have to do the technique on you, exactly the same in repititive manner, even after he recognizes the opportunity is wrong (and variation\ technical shift is required), in order not to break the lesson.
In such circumstances, he may also expect his Uke (You) to assist in generation of the best opprtunity (so the other students will see it and log it in their memories). in some instances, he would rightfully consider you to be a "bad uke" (for demonstrations) afterwards.
Unless you have some kind of a "private session" with a feeling of pen communications", beware of making any conclusions from such encounters, you do not know his reasons/thoughts/etc.

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
Now, interestingly, I tried this on some yudansha and asked them to resist and it had VERY different effects. When they tried to resist, it resulted in them almost smacking their face on their knee.

However when trying on my boxing sparring partners, I couldn't get the desired effect even when simulating ideal break of posture. One of the problems is that fighters are taught to resquare their hips to their opponent as fast as possible, making taisabaki, tenkan extremely difficult. Even some newbies who have a good innate fight sense do this.
Your boxing partner, as well as many newbes, may create difficulties to you from one of the following reasons:
1) Your Kuzushi is not good enough,or the technique build-up takes too long. They regain balance ("square their hips"), at this point, no real lock should be attempted. The yudansha give you a chance, and slow their rebalancing (maybe even to stand-still).
2) Your uke knows what is coming, and makes minor shifts that negate the opportunity, and, since you do not control the technique yet, you miss the indications of this.

Good luck
Amir
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Old 07-14-2011, 04:43 PM   #79
Ba2m
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Hi Reuben and all,

Related with this ude kime nage impact issue, it might be interesting to watch and discuss this video (at 2:00) when the fighter apply something looks very similar with ude kime nage (but he did it in extreme version)..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718dOW09k

My spontaneous reaction of seeing this video was I am thinking probably this is how ude kime nage looks like in the complicated situation of real fight. Please tell me your opinion..

ps: I don't know exactly what happen with the opponent left elbow after that but i really feel so sorry for him , i hope he could fully recover from the injury.
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:13 PM   #80
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Thanks for all the replies!

Amir: True it was actually not in front of other students and it was a specific question that I posed to him but point taken especially if further 'testing' would result in me breaking my arm. Agreed on not trying a lock once uke has re-squared.

Abraham: It's a bit different in that the hand is secured and it looks like it was clamped down to break/manuever the opponent as opposed to udekimenage where it is a 'throw'. As how I understand it, udekimenage should project the opponent forward or it will break his elbow joint while in the video it looks like breaking the joint was the intention rather than a projection. It left his opponent no way to escape in a peaceful manner whereas in Aikido there's still that option.

I suppose the question is what is the sensitivity required when using udekimenage that would prompt uke to be thrown forward instead of breaking his elbow. Too fast and strong, and it'll just be an elbow break, too slow, and the effect of the throw is diminished as he recentres and there's no real incentive for him to move forward.

Perhaps the answer lies in this sensitivity. In putting enough energy forward to make a real opponent prompted to project and if he resists, then a broken elbow but not so much speed and energy to give him no opportunity to opt to roll forward.

It's like Uke has to choose either
a) broken elbow OR
b) forward projection

I suppose it's quite difficult to practice this in a dojo environment to see if it works in real life since nage has to be committed in his technique enough that if resistance is given, uke's elbow will be broken. If nage is still 'nice' about it, then there would not be sufficient impetus for a resisting opponent to fall forward.

In short, udekimenage is not a 'NICE' throw. It's you roll or you get injured. Compare this to iriminage or shihonage where the throw is inexorable and cannot be resisted once balance is broken but does not require any joint breaking for it to work. Here udekimenage has an element of 'u may be injured so you better roll'.

Thoughts on this?
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:06 PM   #81
Ba2m
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post

It's like Uke has to choose either
a) broken elbow OR
b) forward projection

In short, udekimenage is not a 'NICE' throw. It's you roll or you get injured. Compare this to iriminage or shihonage where the throw is inexorable and cannot be resisted once balance is broken but does not require any joint breaking for it to work. Here udekimenage has an element of 'u may be injured so you better roll'.

Thoughts on this?
Interesting thought.

I don't know that there is a category based on level of effectiveness of the techniques. Because my sensei told me that all the technique are very dangerous and very applicable in specific situation, where we can only learn to detect what situation for what technique by time and experience , because all the decision and the process will be happened in split second.

I also have always been told repeatedly by my sensei's that :
1. all of the technique should be done in "special way" to respect and protect our training partners who are willing to help our growth. Example : don't push on uke's elbow, aware when pulling uke's hand in shihonage, etc.
2. Everybody especially the beginners have to work hard to improve their ukemi and breakfall. Because the goal of ukemi and breakfall techniques is self protection. Especially when technique is done very fast and the projection of the throw is very hard (in advance level), uke will get severely injured when they can't response well with perfect ukemi/breakfall technique. (before this, once i thought the breakfall and ukemi technique are intended for show or demonstration )

But i will discuss this with my senpai's and my sensei's at the dojo, thank you for bringing up this discussion. It's really interesting. Ow btw, maybe i need to tell you that i am just a beginner in aikido , but really interested to learn many things especially from the discussions in this forum, so.. i am really sorry if i have something wrong on what i am saying here. Thanks.

Last edited by Ba2m : 07-14-2011 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:11 PM   #82
Reuben
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Abraham Jonathan wrote: View Post
Interesting thought.

I don't know that there is a category based on level of effectiveness of the techniques. Because my sensei told me that all the technique are very dangerous and very applicable in specific situation, where we can only learn to detect what situation for what technique by time and experience , because all the decision and the process will be happened in split second.

I also have always been told repeatedly by my sensei's that :
1. all of the technique should be done in "special way" to respect and protect our training partners who are willing to help our growth. Example : don't push on uke's elbow, aware when pulling uke's hand in shihonage, etc.
2. Everybody especially the beginners have to work hard to improve their ukemi and breakfall. Because the goal of ukemi and breakfall techniques is self protection. Especially when technique is done very fast and the projection of the throw is very hard, uke will get severely injured when they can't response well with perfect ukemi/breakfall technique. (before this, once i thought the breakfall and ukemi technique are intended for show or demonstration )

But i will discuss this with my senpai's and my sensei's at the dojo, thank you for bringing up this discussion. It's really interesting. Ow btw, maybe i need to tell you that i am just a beginner in aikido , but really interested to learn many things especially from the discussions in this forum, so.. i am really sorry if i have something wrong on what i am saying here. Thanks.
If there is indeed a special way in doing this technique, I'll be very interested on your findings with your Senseis and Sempai.

I humbly suggest that you try resisting the technique WITHOUT rolling in that if you feel the forward projection, just post your leg forward instead of going into a roll. Make sure you trust your partner lest he break your arm for your 'resistance' which is not what we're looking for . I'll post a video on this later today when I go to the dojo.
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:22 PM   #83
Ba2m
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
If there is indeed a special way in doing this technique, I'll be very interested on your findings with your Senseis and Sempai.
Actually, what i mean with the "special way" is doing the technique by being aware of uke's safety. Which is different with the way of applying it to real attackers.

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
I humbly suggest that you try resisting the technique WITHOUT rolling in that if you feel the forward projection, just post your leg forward instead of going into a roll. Make sure you trust your partner lest he break your arm for your 'resistance' which is not what we're looking for . I'll post a video on this later today when I go to the dojo.
Okay i will try it. Actually i had an experience resisting when i trained this technique, but my sensei was aware and he told me that i have to roll and follow the direction, otherwise i will break my arm if i resist this technique and the nage put strong pressure by his center in applying this technique.
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:01 AM   #84
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Hi Reuben, just from a theoretical point of view: one thing has to happen to make it require a roll as opposed to just a walking/jogging/hopping forward projection. That one thing is that the top of the body has to get accelerated forward, while the legs/bottom of body gets a lot less forward acceleration (or even gets acceleration in the opposite direction).
You pointed out one way to make this happen-- stop the uke's legs with your hip or your leg. Extreme version of this is judo-like throws or turning this into koshi nage.
In terms of basic mechanics of making it a throw instead of a forward shove or an "elbow attack," that will do it.

Another way to do this same top/bottom trick would be to manipulate the sensation of weight so that he can't step forward easily-- so there is some difficulty stepping, all the while his upper body is getting a lot of acceleration. I think the way to practice that is the common exercises of lifting (kokyu dosa or aiki age) as well as doing tai-no-henko with a sinking feeling. Still working on that. But neither of these threaten the elbow, it is just lifting and sinking, in ways that affect where and when he can easily step. So now when you go back to udekimenage, then you have something that is independent of the elbow.

Another way to get the legs moving kind of backward while you take the upper body forward would be a wave motion, maybe something to combine with the above method. In other words go back-then-forward, timed with the wave action in his body (this may be best with soft, flexible ukes), so that the legs are still experiencing "backward," while you have begun driving the "forward" upstairs.

Well, it's a forum so take this with a grain of salt! If I make a video or something then my "theories" can have more credence.
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:12 AM   #85
Amir Krause
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post

As how I understand it, udekimenage should project the opponent forward or it will break his elbow joint while in the video it looks like breaking the joint was the intention rather than a projection. It left his opponent no way to escape in a peaceful manner whereas in Aikido there's still that option.

I suppose the question is what is the sensitivity required when using udekimenage that would prompt uke to be thrown forward instead of breaking his elbow. Too fast and strong, and it'll just be an elbow break, too slow, and the effect of the throw is diminished as he recentres and there's no real incentive for him to move forward.
Warning, the text below may be entirely wrong for non-Korindo Aikido

You keep writing about forward momentum, but, if all the pressure you create is directed this way, your Uke will step forward to evade teh technique, without falling or rolling.
In order for Uke to fall / roll, the direction to escape from your break must be downwards. The way I learned creates a pressure that rotates in a circular manner along a small arc, first upwards and then downwards, thus creating Kuzushi and throwing Uke (or breaking his arm).

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Hi Reuben, just from a theoretical point of view: one thing has to happen to make it require a roll as opposed to just a walking/jogging/hopping forward projection. That one thing is that the top of the body has to get accelerated forward, while the legs/bottom of body gets a lot less forward acceleration (or even gets acceleration in the opposite direction).
You pointed out one way to make this happen-- stop the uke's legs with your hip or your leg. Extreme version of this is judo-like throws or turning this into koshi nage.
In terms of basic mechanics of making it a throw instead of a forward shove or an "elbow attack," that will do it.

Another way to do this same top/bottom trick would be to manipulate the sensation of weight so that he can't step forward easily-- so there is some difficulty stepping, all the while his upper body is getting a lot of acceleration. I think the way to practice that is the common exercises of lifting (kokyu dosa or aiki age) as well as doing tai-no-henko with a sinking feeling. Still working on that. But neither of these threaten the elbow, it is just lifting and sinking, in ways that affect where and when he can easily step. So now when you go back to udekimenage, then you have something that is independent of the elbow.
Another way to get the legs moving kind of backward while you take the upper body forward would be a wave motion, maybe something to combine with the above method. In other words go back-then-forward, timed with the wave action in his body (this may be best with soft, flexible ukes), so that the legs are still experiencing "backward," while you have begun driving the "forward" upstairs.
Well, it's a forum so take this with a grain of salt! If I make a video or something then my "theories" can have more credence.
We might be writing about the same concept, hard to explain movement in words.

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
Perhaps the answer lies in this sensitivity. In putting enough energy forward to make a real opponent prompted to project and if he resists, then a broken elbow but not so much speed and energy to give him no opportunity to opt to roll forward.

It's like Uke has to choose either
a) broken elbow OR
b) forward projection

I suppose it's quite difficult to practice this in a dojo environment to see if it works in real life since nage has to be committed in his technique enough that if resistance is given, uke's elbow will be broken. If nage is still 'nice' about it, then there would not be sufficient impetus for a resisting opponent to fall forward.

In short, udekimenage is not a 'NICE' throw. It's you roll or you get injured. Compare this to iriminage or shihonage where the throw is inexorable and cannot be resisted once balance is broken but does not require any joint breaking for it to work. Here udekimenage has an element of 'u may be injured so you better roll'.

Thoughts on this?
same warning
Both iriminage and shihonage have variations which are "not nice", and we (beginners excepted) normally practice those, and not the nice ones. shihonage is a break and a backwards imbalance, and if Tori insists, Uke can not even fall to avoid the break (obviously we let go before that in our practice). In riminage, one has a powerful lock on the neck while throwing.

Aikido techniques are not unique, the same techniques exist in multiple styles of Jujutsu (often with lethal variations).

Amir
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Old 09-01-2011, 03:50 PM   #86
Ken McGrew
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Rueben, if possible it would be much easier to make suggestions if we could see a video of you applying the technique.

Because the technique is not working for you in a given situation does not mean that the technique cannot work. There are mutliple ways of approaching Udekimenage, with some working better in a given situation than others. Even the videos you posted as evidence that the technique doesn't work are not conclusive evidence. We would need to feel the way those instructors applied the technique. There is often more than meets the eye in Aikido. Hiroshi Ikeda Shihan is a good example of this. He often says "looks fake" but I assure you it is not fake. It is internal connection breaking Uke's balance.

Udekimenage works when it fits the situation. If it stops "working" at some point then Nage can simply adjust and change. This is the meaning of Takemuso Aiki. Thinking of Aikido in mostly technical terms is the real problem, it seems, and the problem I have with this entire thread. Aikido is not about forcing a given technique. Aikido, as O'Sensei said, is the art of "absolute non-resistance."

When something isn't working in a given situation the response advocated is often that we should go back to the roots of aikijutsu Etc. Several responders in this thread, for example, have advocated threatening the elbow more to get the technique to work. I generally don't attack the elbow at all as it elicits resistance. Rather I try to capture Uke's momentum, move my arm under the arm pit, and shape Uke's trajectory off his or her original line. Udekimenage is in the breath throw family of techniques after all.

Threatening the elbow is one response and it might work. Or it might not in a particular context with a particular attacker. Changing to a different technique when something stops working might be a better approach. It is also possible to change the way you are approaching udekimenage on the fly in the middle of the technique (dropping your weight, moving through Uke with your body, Etc.).

Whether changing between techniques or changing within the same technique it will be necessary to feel what is happening between Uke and Nage in order to respond appropriately. This is why there can be no accurate description of how to do a given technique that "will work." When O'Sensei or senior instructors in Aikido seem to always be able to do a given technique and it always seems to work, even if it looks the same on the surface, it is always different on the inside. You can't step in the same stream twice. This is very important to understand. Aikido is not a collection of techniques.
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Old 09-01-2011, 07:08 PM   #87
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet. I didn't get a chance to read the whole thread. Something you might like to try is to think of it as an atemi. Rather than having your arm at an angle across their elbow, you can draw out their arm so that it is straight and have your arm parallel to theirs. Then hit them with a fingertip strike to the throat while stepping in. As they are responding to this, you can drop your arm and hit them in the nuts. It's not a nice way to do the technique, but it is something to have a play with. If you want to be really cruel, you could grab the jaw bone after the neck strike, but I wouldn't do that with anyone you want to train with again.
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Old 09-01-2011, 09:10 PM   #88
dapidmini
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
and realized that in both these videos there was a slight leg sweep/trip or at least the legs were positioned in a way that prevented the leg from posting. I haven't tried this yet (going to do so asap).
in my experience from getting thrown by Sensei is that the most effective variation of udekimenage is by moving your whole body (or mainly the hip) toward uke with your upper arm somewhere between uke's upper arm and elbow. also make sure that uke's hand is straight, not bent. and when you throw him, use your hip. I had it done to me a few times and the result is quite satisfying. the forward projection I got was a big one.. I don't know if it was just my instinct to ukemi but I did.
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Old 09-01-2011, 10:57 PM   #89
Ken McGrew
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
David Santana wrote: View Post
in my experience from getting thrown by Sensei is that the most effective variation of udekimenage is by moving your whole body (or mainly the hip) toward uke with your upper arm somewhere between uke's upper arm and elbow. also make sure that uke's hand is straight, not bent. and when you throw him, use your hip. I had it done to me a few times and the result is quite satisfying. the forward projection I got was a big one.. I don't know if it was just my instinct to ukemi but I did.
There is no such thing as the one most effective way to do any particular technique. Uke may change so the technique Nage started with is no longer appropriate. Even if it is possible to do a given technique it will always be necessary to feel what is happening and make subtle changes within the technique in order for it "to work" in the dynamic relationship with a given Uke at a particular moment. There are many good ways to perform Udekimenage and Uke must move between these variations in a fluid manner in order for the technique, or any technique, to "work."

Having said this the approach described here does not sound like a particularly good one. It seems to reveal an approach to Aikido in which Nage does Aikido to Uke. Ai Ki Do is "the art of absolute non resistance." Please read up on the concept of takemuso aiki. Please watch videos of O'Sensei. He wasn't forcing techniques. Thus the name and everything he said cut against the idea of an overly mechanical approach to Aikido.
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:38 AM   #90
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Having made my somewhat violent suggestions earlier, it might also be worth considering the following.

What is the difference between udekime-nage and kokyu-nage? I would suggest there is very little difference apart from the pressure on the elbow. Please watch the video below to see what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUCY6eFNJZM

So, if you are having trouble with the technique, it might be because a) you are focusing too much on the elbow, and b) you aren't getting all the other aspects that make this essentially a kokyu-nage. Are you able to do the technique shown in the video?
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:05 AM   #91
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
IThen hit them with a fingertip strike to the throat while stepping in. As they are responding to this, you can drop your arm and hit them in the nuts.
Not sure whether I get you right.
But I think you describe what we teach as the most basic form of ude kime nage:
atemi to throat or face with the arm which delivers the kime to ukes arm. Stretching uke. Then atemi to the genitalia with the same hand. Dropping uke.
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:33 AM   #92
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

I was taught that taking ukemi is using the escape provided in the technique.
When doing this technique one should not wait to be thrown: you would not in fact be thrown, your arm would break, that is why you use the escape. Without being a divebunny!

We also set off trying for shihonage, but aite stretches/extends his arm so bending it for shihonage is (near) impossible and then do udekimenage.
So I think the Shihan protected you when you did not move (take ukemi).

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:47 AM   #93
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Not sure whether I get you right.
But I think you describe what we teach as the most basic form of ude kime nage:
atemi to throat or face with the arm which delivers the kime to ukes arm. Stretching uke. Then atemi to the genitalia with the same hand. Dropping uke.
Yes, that is what I was referring to. I think you gave a more articulate and concise description than I did.

Whether you are going for the harder 'atemi version' or the softer 'kokyu version', I think the trick is not to worry about the elbow so much. If you move correctly, the elbow will take care of itself.
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Old 09-02-2011, 06:20 PM   #94
Ken McGrew
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

B: How many techniques are there in Aikido?

O Sensei: There are about 3,000 basic techniques, and each one of them has 16 variations . . . so there are many thousands. Depending on the situation, you create new ones.

1957 interview
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Old 09-02-2011, 06:59 PM   #95
Ken McGrew
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

"Ultimately, you must forget about technique. The further you progress, the fewer teachings there are. The Great Path is really No Path."
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Old 09-02-2011, 07:08 PM   #96
Ken McGrew
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

"The techniques of Aikido change constantly; every encounter is unique, and the appropriate response should emerge naturally. Today's techniques will be different tomorrow. Do not get caught up with the form and appearance of a challenge. Aikido has no form - it is the study of the spirit."
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Old 09-03-2011, 10:41 PM   #97
kewms
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Any technique can be stopped if uke knows what is coming and nage isn't allowed to hit him. I would suggest that resisting in a position where your elbow can be broken is bad ukemi, and that insisting on continuing with a particular technique when the situation has changed is simplistic aikido.

Katherine
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:17 AM   #98
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Any technique can be stopped if uke knows what is coming and nage isn't allowed to hit him.
I don't think that this is true. Maybe it doesn't make sense in a martial way to persue a technique which is blocked by uke.

But I think technically it is possible and is a very good method to learn the essence of a technique, to understand how it works.
And it teaches how ones own body, center, movement, posture has to be used and to be adapted.

For example: In the case of ude kime nage, uke can block a forward movement. If you don't try to throw uke to the front, but lead the contact you have to his blockin elbow straight down, vertically, in most cases uke will collapse.
Another way is moving him by rotating ones arm under his blocking elbow.
Or twisting his wrist a little bit mor like in shiho nage.
...
There are so many many ways to adapt ones technique to ukes behavior. So I myself think, it is much to be learned through those blocking manouvers of uke.

@ Ken:
What do you want to say citing Ueshiba?
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Old 09-06-2011, 05:55 AM   #99
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Maybe it doesn't make sense in a martial way to persue a technique which is blocked by uke
One would start to use force to go somewhere aite does not want to go (any longer).

Quote:
There are so many many ways to adapt ones technique to ukes behavior. So I myself think, it is much to be learned through those blocking manouvers of uke.
This is only different practise/intend. To understand why you cannot (yet) do the technique you initially intended is equally important. Aite should not be able to block. This indicates somewhere along the line aite regained balance.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:17 PM   #100
graham christian
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

This is only different practise/intend. To understand why you cannot (yet) do the technique you initially intended is equally important. Aite should not be able to block. This indicates somewhere along the line aite regained balance[quote]

I like it. Respect.

Regards.G.
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