Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Spiritual

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-03-2011, 10:31 PM   #51
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 991
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

I've encountered bad aikido in many places, including some rather well-known instructors. I've encountered good aikido in many places, including some very obscure instructors.

These days, I mostly pay attention to a dojo's students and recommendations from people I trust, not the name on the door.

I will say, however, that I've seen just as many dismissive statements about Aikikai from Tohei-derived styles as vice versa, but have seen no evidence that either side of the divide produces better students.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2011, 11:38 PM   #52
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Patrick,

this comment shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the test being performed.

Mind body co-ordination (which is the goal) tests were devised by Tohei Sensei, to promote this aspect of aikido, they are 'not' just about physical pushing. In fact if you push just using the body, you are performing the test completely wrong. The test is made to establish that nage has his mind and body connected and that the mind is in the right direction. They are as much a test of the mind as the body.

The tester themselves must be using co-ordination to perform the test, it looks light and it is light, the idea being to be sensitive enough to feel for any tension in the system or wavering of the mind.

Dissing something that you don't understand seems to be common practice, which is a shame.

It is wiser to ask questions, or to seek out and try for oneself, than to dismiss offhand.

regards,

Mark
p.s. I'm not sure about the ribbon though either.
How about a healthy dose of intellectual honesty?
Own your practice and either defend it, and explain its worth, or stop asking us for our opinions and then telling us we don't get it.

Here we go again being asked to judge videos and practices, and people tell us we do not understand. I think these discussions are too often disingenuous. Why put up video, ask why we dismiss the practice, talk to people who have met and trained with Ki society people and tested them and then, like a certain person here, go on to routinely tell us - we- don't understand. I mean it's getting to be like clockwork. When I first saw this I said to myself..really...seriously...again?
Tohei set an example of testing himself against judo players and other detractors who were trying to stop him. Apparently he put his ideas and his ass on the line. It seems that being a follower of that type of boldness, is just too much for many people.

Tohei had some power, but overall the styles teachers and members have certainly received quite a bit of bad reviews over the years haven't they?
How come Tohei didn't?
I'd bet it's because he could actually deliver and many in the art cannot. Is there something to be learned there?
The question is, where are the ki society people going out to judo and MMA dojo to test with people who want to see them undone? Since there is so much criticism that comes your way maybe it has some justification? I see no consideration, care or concern that it is perhaps the ki people who are truly the ones who do not understand what ki is capable of after all.

Maybe there is nothing wrong with Tohei's model...just the modern players lack of real understanding. Perhaps you should consider that it is you who are being presumptuous, and really don't understand what ki and aiki is truly capable of. While I remain a great fan of ki and aiki. I have seen too many videos of ki society people showing a profound lack of skill and understanding. Sadly, since I am on any other day a fan of the topic, I remain as unimpressed as everyone else who doesn't even believe in ki or aiki at all. From what I have seen, it is apparently because they do not really understand ki or aiki. And I know they would be delighted to move forward in their practice if they did. I have asked any number or ki people if I could test them...except for Greg Steckel, all have refused. That certainly doesn't say much.

Mark
Patrick trains with me. You are certainly welcome to come and train with us. Then we can have a discussion about who shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the test being performed and what ki can or cannot do. I think you will find we share a mutual interest in the subject itself, just not how one goes about achieving soft power in a more profound way that actually does work against full resistance.
This, is simply not it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VGH--Z6RVc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCk_g5-FhuM

I have no comment on the ribbons other than to say stop blaming your critics when you put this stuff out here. Good grief, at least own your practice and either stop asking questions or at least deal with the criticism in a more professional manner than to say your critics don't understand.
At the very least, if many of you are not as you continually say, doing a martial practice, then remove the keikogis and the fake attacks and make it a Yoga type movement. Most of the stuff that keeps being offered for us to view, certainly has no business being called a martial art.
just say'n
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2011, 11:51 PM   #53
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Ed Duffy wrote: View Post
Been noticing quite a bit of dissension towards KI Aikido on this forum.
Is it because many preceive it as ineffective
Can't KI Aikido be street effective?
May God bless!
Ed
It isn't rocket science Ed.
Go invite some average people in (who are not trained fighters) to attack your teacher.
Then invite in some decent fighters and ask them them to tune your teacher.
Then answer your own question and stay or leave.

In case you don't already know this, most martial artists suck. They can neither fight well, or handle physical stresses well. Many of the "famous" teachers we follow were nothing more than budo wallpaper...also rans in their day. So, it is no surprise that those who followed them are nothing more than highly ranked wallpaper themselves. I suspect it's always been that way.

Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 12:13 AM   #54
ryback
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 198
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Everyone looks at aikido differently. But as far as I know, Morihei Ueshiba thought Tomiki was doing aikido. It was Kisshomaru Ueshiba who did not think highly of what Tomiki was doing. Kisshomaru was the one who did not think Tomiki was doing aikido.

Mark
I see what you mean...I don't want my posts to sound harsh or exagerated but the only thing i cannot accept is the so-called competition in aikido. It makes people just graple with each other instead of doing actual technique, it has a different purpose than the true purpose of budo and it is not in any way in the spirit of aikido regardless of what o'sensei (and i am fully aware of what i'm saying here) or anybody else believed. It's the only thing that i won't say "in my opinion", it is an objective truth. The way of the sportsman and the way of competition is not the way of the warrior...
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 03:12 AM   #55
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 832
Germany
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

When I think of Ki-aikido I have the image of Yoshigasaki doshu, who can be seen in the first video Dan posted.
This is what Ki-aikido looks like here in Germany and I attended one class of this form of aikido.

My impression is that it is fundamentally different from what I know as aikido.
No reason to hate it or have negative emotions about it at all. Just stating it's different.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 03:55 AM   #56
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 395
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have no comment on the ribbons other than to say stop blaming your critics when you put this stuff out here. Good grief, at least own your practice and either stop asking questions or at least deal with the criticism in a more professional manner than to say your critics don't understand.
At the very least, if many of you are not as you continually say, doing a martial practice, then remove the keikogis and the fake attacks and make it a Yoga type movement. Most of the stuff that keeps being offered for us to view, certainly has no business being called a martial art.
+1 Could not agree more.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 04:13 AM   #57
gates
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 193
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
I see what you mean...I don't want my posts to sound harsh or exagerated but the only thing i cannot accept is the so-called competition in aikido. It makes people just graple with each other instead of doing actual technique, it has a different purpose than the true purpose of budo and it is not in any way in the spirit of aikido regardless of what o'sensei (and i am fully aware of what i'm saying here) or anybody else believed. It's the only thing that i won't say "in my opinion", it is an objective truth. The way of the sportsman and the way of competition is not the way of the warrior...
The purpose of driving a car is to get from a to b. Motor racing is a pointless exercise that only serves to pander the ego's of participants. Except that advances in technology, fue economy, aerodynamics, safety are generated from it, helping us get from a to b.

In principle I agree wholeheartedly with what you say, however things are never as black and white as you suggest. For a truth to really hold firm it has to reflect both sides of the coin.
Respectfully
Keith

Last edited by gates : 09-06-2011 at 04:15 AM.

Enjoy the journey
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 04:46 AM   #58
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
How about a healthy dose of intellectual honesty?
Own your practice and either defend it, and explain its worth, or stop asking us for our opinions and then telling us we don't get it.
Hi Dan,

I do own my practice with all it's qualities and faults. There is nothing to defend. I was not asking for opinions. I was responding to Patrick's offhand comment about his kids being able to push harder than what was being seen in the video. Which to me sounded a bit like those who see a Jackson Pollock painting and say "my kids could do better than that".

Quote:
Here we go again being asked to judge videos and practices, and people tell us we do not understand. I think these discussions are too often disingenuous. Why put up video, ask why we dismiss the practice, talk to people who have met and trained with Ki society people and tested them and then, like a certain person here, go on to routinely tell us - we- don't understand. I mean it's getting to be like clockwork. When I first saw this I said to myself..really...seriously...again?
Many videos are posted here, to either provoke discussion or to defend a position, or sometimes for sheer comedy value. I'm not sure the originators of the videos posted them on youtube (if they themselves even did) to ask for everyones judgement. Maybe they are just an expression of what they do. Then we pounce on them and rip them to bits or try to defend them.

If you know you understand something, and from having met you, I know that you do, why worry about those who think you don't? just sayin

Quote:
Tohei set an example of testing himself against judo players and other detractors who were trying to stop him. Apparently he put his ideas and his ass on the line. It seems that being a follower of that type of boldness, is just too much for many people.
As you know, next year I plan to get out into the world and put my own backside on the line. I am prepared to be shown how little or much I know or don't know as the case may be. I am not really interested in proving anything. If I have holes, I want to fix them, if I have the ability to perform well against those who test me, I want to improve that ability.

Quote:
Tohei had some power, but overall the styles teachers and members have certainly received quite a bit of bad reviews over the years haven't they?
How come Tohei didn't?
I'd bet it's because he could actually deliver and many in the art cannot. Is there something to be learned there?
The question is, where are the ki society people going out to judo and MMA dojo to test with people who want to see them undone? Since there is so much criticism that comes your way maybe it has some justification? I see no consideration, care or concern that it is perhaps the ki people who are truly the ones who do not understand what ki is capable of after all.
You may well be right, and not just for ki society people. I am not a member of the ki society and have never practiced in one of their dojos, but I will make a point of doing so on my travels.

Quote:
Maybe there is nothing wrong with Tohei's model...just the modern players lack of real understanding. Perhaps you should consider that it is you who are being presumptuous, and really don't understand what ki and aiki is truly capable of. While I remain a great fan of ki and aiki. I have seen too many videos of ki society people showing a profound lack of skill and understanding. Sadly, since I am on any other day a fan of the topic, I remain as unimpressed as everyone else who doesn't even believe in ki or aiki at all. From what I have seen, it is apparently because they do not really understand ki or aiki. And I know they would be delighted to move forward in their practice if they did. I have asked any number or ki people if I could test them...except for Greg Steckel, all have refused. That certainly doesn't say much.
You may well be correct here, I am humble enough to accept that I do not have all the answers, and the more I find out, the more I find there is more to find out. I am however, enjoying the journey. I will also, like Greg, be happy to be tested by you.

Quote:
Mark
Patrick trains with me. You are certainly welcome to come and train with us. Then we can have a discussion about who shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the test being performed and what ki can or cannot do. I think you will find we share a mutual interest in the subject itself, just not how one goes about achieving soft power in a more profound way that actually does work against full resistance.
This, is simply not it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VGH--Z6RVc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCk_g5-FhuM
Thanks for that invite Dan, I look forward to both the training and the discussion. I am interested in learning whatever I can to improve my own current abilities.

Quote:
I have no comment on the ribbons other than to say stop blaming your critics when you put this stuff out here. Good grief, at least own your practice and either stop asking questions or at least deal with the criticism in a more professional manner than to say your critics don't understand.
I guess you are commenting generally, rather than to me. I am not posting videos and asking for approval or criticism. However, sometimes criticism comes from those who know, and sometimes the critic does not fully comprehend. If all critics were equally knowing, all reviews would read the same.

Quote:
At the very least, if many of you are not as you continually say, doing a martial practice, then remove the keikogis and the fake attacks and make it a Yoga type movement. Most of the stuff that keeps being offered for us to view, certainly has no business being called a martial art.
just say'n
Dan
Just a question, is there any 'branch' of aikido that you feel is being practiced in a full 'martial' way? I do accept that ki-aikido is open to all sorts of criticism, from the martial end of the scale. It can't just be written off though can it?

My own teacher had the full on martial training, on offer in the 50's and 60's, that seems to have been relegated to history now. After training with Tohei for about 10/11 years, he uses all the exercises and terminology he learned from him, as he felt that this was a better method than the 'demonstrate and let them get on with it' approach, that was a more cultural norm.

Why can't we wear the kit when we practice? what does it matter to others, if we do?

Personally, I like the fact that aikido can be practiced by kids and adults, young and old. I like the fact that Ueshiba said that aikido is for everyone. I like the fact that it can be used as a tool for personal development and I like the fact that it can be effective as a means of self defence. I also like the fact that that there are guys like you out there, challenging us to keep it real

See you soon hopefully

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 07:17 AM   #59
oisin bourke
 
oisin bourke's Avatar
Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 313
Ireland
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It isn't rocket science Ed.
Go invite some average people in (who are not trained fighters) to attack your teacher.
Then invite in some decent fighters and ask them them to tune your teacher.
Then answer your own question and stay or leave.

In case you don't already know this, most martial artists suck. They can neither fight well, or handle physical stresses well. Many of the "famous" teachers we follow were nothing more than budo wallpaper...also rans in their day. So, it is no surprise that those who followed them are nothing more than highly ranked wallpaper themselves. I suspect it's always been that way.

Dan
That's just an ignorant post.

"Can't fight well." Since when was budo training about producing "fighters"? Anyone with a brain can see that there are better methods if you want to kick other people's asses. The Japanese and Chinese worked out that training just for ass kicking is juvenile years ago. "budo" doesn't even mean "martial art"!

"Can't handle physical stresses well?" There was a huge earthquake and tsunami in Japan a few moths ago. Thousands died. Hundreds of thousands have been left destitute in unimaginably harsh conditions. I'd say that would cause some physical stress. Exactly the sort of "budo" training that you dismiss as producing "sucky martial artists" have helped many of them to cope with difficulty most of us will never experience, (please God).

One thing that Budo training should inculculate is some tact and respect for other people.

Really.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 10:14 AM   #60
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
That's just an ignorant post.
"Can't fight well." Since when was budo training about producing "fighters"?
Since the beginning
Quote:
Anyone with a brain can see that there are better methods if you want to kick other people's asses. The Japanese and Chinese worked out that training just for ass kicking is juvenile years ago. "budo" doesn't even mean "martial art"!
That much is evident in the way many practice.

Ed asked:
Quote:
Been noticing quite a bit of dissension towards KI Aikido on this forum. Why is that?
1. Is it because many preceive it as ineffective or is it just
2. Can't KI Aikido be street effective?
3..Should I go to another style?

Dan Harden wrote:

Quote:
It isn't rocket science Ed.
Go invite some average people in (who are not trained fighters) to attack your teacher. Then invite in some decent fighters and ask them them to tune your teacher. Then answer your own question and stay or leave.
In case you don't already know this, most martial artists suck. They can neither fight well, or handle physical stresses well.
Dan
What measure is there for effective? He asked about street effective. I suggested he test both; trained and untrained.
If asked directly there was a simple way to find out.
What does measuring the effectiveness of a martial artist have to do with disrespecting them? They either are, or they are not.
If they do not do their martial arts as martial arts, but rather for fun, than fine.
Why ask a question about effectiveness then?

I think too many people want credit for it all, and they have not put in the time or the testing and suffering to get it...but they want to claim equal footing for something clearly not earned. That is the king of disrespect.
I have many friends in budo who could care less about fighting or fighting ability (maybe even the majority). There is nothing wrong with that. I continually argue that we should not judge people in budo who are having fun...until and unless they claim ( or worse, teach) something they simply cannot do or know.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-06-2011 at 10:23 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 10:40 AM   #61
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
That's just an ignorant post.

"Can't fight well." Since when was budo training about producing "fighters"? Anyone with a brain can see that there are better methods if you want to kick other people's asses. The Japanese and Chinese worked out that training just for ass kicking is juvenile years ago. "budo" doesn't even mean "martial art"!

"Can't handle physical stresses well?" There was a huge earthquake and tsunami in Japan a few moths ago. Thousands died. Hundreds of thousands have been left destitute in unimaginably harsh conditions. I'd say that would cause some physical stress. Exactly the sort of "budo" training that you dismiss as producing "sucky martial artists" have helped many of them to cope with difficulty most of us will never experience, (please God).

One thing that Budo training should inculculate is some tact and respect for other people.

Really.
Thought I would point out that I was answering a question about effectiveness. To which, I got a response calling me essentially; ignorant, lack of a brain, juvenile, and lacking tact and respect for other people.
I don't mind, but while I was on point, you and your tone, pretty much defeats your own position.
I would also point out that contrary to many detractors; I publicly and privately support the founding of the ki aikido movement and the very real skills of Tohei, if not the mess we have made out of it and most other Asian arts. The lack of real skill in Ki and aiki in so many modern adepts is the cause and reason for the questions in thread in the first place, is it not? If on the other hand you want me to applaud all efforts as equal and give everyone an "A," than yes, you are talking to the wrong guy.
Hopefully that will change
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-06-2011 at 10:54 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 11:01 AM   #62
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
...Morihei Ueshiba, once the most favored student of Sokaku Takeda, was only following his teacher in his own personal way. Morihei Ueshiba added his own personal spiritual ideology to create his aikido, but do not get confused -- he was a Daito ryu aiki man through and through. Nearly everything he did can be traced back to Sokaku Takeda...
This has been bugging me since I read it before the weekend, so since I thought I'd cycle back and pick up on it.

I think you're overstating your case, Mark. Yes, O-Sensei trained Daito-Ryu, taught Daito-Ryu, and handed out rank in Daito-Ryu before the war. But I think the history is clear that he did more than add a spiritual ideology to DR. He personally came to a split with his teacher that seems to have been more than just personal; he came to a point where he started to look for another name than "Daito-Ryu" to describe what he did; and those who saw what he did saw something other than Daito-Ryu in it. He may not have come up with the name "Aikido" himself, but he seems to have been clear that a new name was needed--he was calling what he did "Takemusu Aiki" before others suggested "Aikido" to him. And he clearly made choices in what he presented and how he presented it, as much in what he left out as in how he refined what he kept.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 12:18 PM   #63
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
....and those who saw what he did saw something other than Daito-Ryu in it. He may not have come up with the name "Aikido" himself, but he seems to have been clear that a new name was needed--he was calling what he did "Takemusu Aiki" before others suggested "Aikido" to him. And he clearly made choices in what he presented and how he presented it, as much in what he left out as in how he refined what he kept.
What do you suggest the choices were in;
a) what he chose to present
b) what he left out?
And the unstated....
c) what remained?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 12:59 PM   #64
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Dan, I can think of few surer ways of making a fool of myself than by trying to explain the differences between Aikido and Daito-Ryu to you.

I should stop there, but since my momma apparently did raise at least one fool...

Just based on the video record and trying to eliminate my preconceptions, I'd say that O-Sensei clearly had little interest in techniques that locked uke up, pinned him, or put him in a complicated submission. Where he does use joint locks he immediately turns it into a projection. Where he uses pins, they're simple. He seems to care most about dealing with the initial attack in a way that doesn't interfere with uke's momentum, either of one limb or of the whole body, and then getting uke out of his space so he stays free to operate. Even when he's bouncing uke off himself he gets uke away rather than going for a submission.

Flip side, I believe all those elements are part of Daito-Ryu.

So, I infer that O-Sensei didn't want them. And from that, I infer that he thought they weren't useful to what he was trying to teach.

Partly, I'm sure that has to do with adapting sword forms and to the martial situation of multiple attackers. But I don't think that's the whole story.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 01:54 PM   #65
oisin bourke
 
oisin bourke's Avatar
Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 313
Ireland
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Thought I would point out that I was answering a question about effectiveness. To which, I got a response calling me essentially; ignorant, lack of a brain, juvenile, and lacking tact and respect for other people.
I don't mind, but while I was on point, you and your tone, pretty much defeats your own position.
I would also point out that contrary to many detractors; I publicly and privately support the founding of the ki aikido movement and the very real skills of Tohei, if not the mess we have made out of it and most other Asian arts. The lack of real skill in Ki and aiki in so many modern adepts is the cause and reason for the questions in thread in the first place, is it not? If on the other hand you want me to applaud all efforts as equal and give everyone an "A," than yes, you are talking to the wrong guy.
Hopefully that will change
Dan
You made blanket statements about budo and pretty much every anyone teaching or practising one. People from Donn Draeger, Pascal Krieger and the de Prosperos have spent a lot of time and effort explaining the deeper apects of the art to westerners. Are they all just part of the "Budo wallpaper" too ? Posts on a public forum don't have to applaud everyone. They don't have to include blanket dismissals or denigrations either.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 01:57 PM   #66
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
This has been bugging me since I read it before the weekend, so since I thought I'd cycle back and pick up on it.

I think you're overstating your case, Mark. Yes, O-Sensei trained Daito-Ryu, taught Daito-Ryu, and handed out rank in Daito-Ryu before the war. But I think the history is clear that he did more than add a spiritual ideology to DR. He personally came to a split with his teacher that seems to have been more than just personal; he came to a point where he started to look for another name than "Daito-Ryu" to describe what he did; and those who saw what he did saw something other than Daito-Ryu in it. He may not have come up with the name "Aikido" himself, but he seems to have been clear that a new name was needed--he was calling what he did "Takemusu Aiki" before others suggested "Aikido" to him. And he clearly made choices in what he presented and how he presented it, as much in what he left out as in how he refined what he kept.
Hi Hugh,
Don't take it personal, but I'm going to ask you to support some things.

First, you said, "He personally came to a split with his teacher that seems to have been more than just personal". So, is there anything out there that supports that? His split was more than just personal, I mean.

John Driscoll does an excellent job of correlating Daito ryu and aikido techniques here on Aikiweb. The end result is a very high percentage. Mochizuki laments the fact that Ueshiba pared down the Daito ryu syllabus ... not that he changed it. Then we have interviews that state Kisshomaru and Tohei changed the syllabus. So, we have to look at what Morihei Ueshiba was actually doing and *not* what Modern Aikido is doing.

An older Ueshiba on video still does stock Daito ryu techniques. He still uses atemi to incapacitate an attacker (just watch some of his videos where he uses an atemi motion to simulate a strike to a downed uke's elbow). Kodo and Sagawa did very similar demonstrations as Ueshiba. Kodo is on tape doing the push test from a seated position. Ueshiba carried a fan just like Takeda. Where in Modern Aikido does this happen? Then there's the issue with the money.

IMO, what Ueshiba changed in Daito ryu techniques was that he opted for another choice. One in which he opted to spiral the attacker outward into safety rather than the Daito ryu conviction of maim/kill. And even that change is suspect because an older Takeda is quoted as stating that his vision of Daito ryu was self defense. Was Ueshiba just taking a natural progression that Takeda had already found? Or did Takeda take a different path because he had seen what Ueshiba had done?

You said, "he came to a point where he started to look for another name than "Daito-Ryu" to describe what he did". Yes. When? After his split with Takeda. Until then, even up to the opening of the Kobukan dojo, he was still a Daito ryu man. As Sagawa stated, there is a time when the student branches out to do different things than the teacher. Ueshiba followed that progression from a spiritual perspective. Sagawa kept the name, Daito ryu. Yet, both said what they were doing was different than what Takeda had done. But both were Daito ryu aiki men. So was Kodo. So, what other reason was there to look for a different name and what research out there supports that?

You said, "And he clearly made choices in what he presented and how he presented it, as much in what he left out as in how he refined what he kept". Yes, Ueshiba did. However, aiki was the foundation for his spirituality. Take a look at Seiseki Abe as an example. Around 1952, Seiseki Abe says this about his initial meeting with Ueshiba:

"How did you ever learn such a wonderful budo", and he answered, "Through misogi." Now I had been doing misogi since 1941 and when I heard that Aikido came from misogi, suddenly "snap", the two came together.

Seiseki Abe had been doing misogi for at least 10 years before ever starting aikido and wasn't at all near Ueshiba's skills or abilities, nor did he even see misogi and aikido as being similar. However, under Ueshiba's tutelage, Seiseki Abe continued to grow as a martial artist. We can see from this that something that Ueshiba knew and had trained was the underlying basis for powering his misogi exercises. Other people who did not have that certain something did not grow to replicate Ueshiba's abilities. Are there other Oomoto kyo, other misogi-type people, other zen adepts that have done what Ueshiba, Sagawa, or Kodo have done? Where are they? Why did those three consider themselves peers even though they were doing different techniques?

Daito ryu aiki men through and through. Ueshiba just took the road less traveled compared to his peers.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 02:22 PM   #67
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
You made blanket statements about budo and pretty much every anyone teaching or practising one. People from Donn Draeger, Pascal Krieger and the de Prosperos have spent a lot of time and effort explaining the deeper apects of the art to westerners. Are they all just part of the "Budo wallpaper" too ? Posts on a public forum don't have to applaud everyone. They don't have to include blanket dismissals or denigrations either.
There are many more to add to that list as well. dozens off the top of my head.
You are making one hell of a presumptive leap to assume you know my thoughts on the scope of budo-to include the entire history of budo- based on some discussion of the well known sad state of affairs with ki and aiki these modern arts. Perhaps I should donate my library from classics of strategy to rare Chinese translations to personal writings of Don Draeger to some interesing twists on Japanese warfare with newer forensic studies to some needy soul.
Are you denying the idea of a lower mean, a lower denominator, my budo wallpaper? The fact that Master level people stood out from the masses defines your own obvious resentment at their being "also rans."
I will assume the lack of care and serious thought in your statement is intentionally flippant so I'll leave it at that.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-06-2011 at 02:35 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 04:25 PM   #68
Tim Fong
 
Tim Fong's Avatar
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: California
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 175
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote:
The Japanese and Chinese worked out that training just for ass kicking is juvenile years ago. "budo" doesn't even mean "martial art"!
I can't let this pass.

1. Plenty of Chinese martial arts teachers are strictly interested in teaching skills that work in a combative context (street or ring sport) and are not trying to make better people, teach spirituality, religion or anything like that.
2. Budo is not a Chinese concept, I've never heard any Chinese martial arts teacher discuss what he did in terms of budo. On at least one occasion I have heard someone dismiss the concept of budo entirely with the comment "that's a Japanese thing, we don't do that." The Chinese community is enormous, however, so there probably are some guys out there doing it, but it certainly isn't mainstream.

Last edited by Tim Fong : 09-06-2011 at 04:28 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 06:24 PM   #69
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 991
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
"Can't fight well." Since when was budo training about producing "fighters"? Anyone with a brain can see that there are better methods if you want to kick other people's asses. The Japanese and Chinese worked out that training just for ass kicking is juvenile years ago. "budo" doesn't even mean "martial art"!
I'm not fluent in Japanese, but my references for the language certainly translate it that way.

武 -- BU -- of or pertaining to military matters
道 -- DO -- way, art, way of life

武道 -- budo -- martial way, martial art

What translation for budo would you prefer?

Whether a martial art/budo is only, or even primarily, about "kicking asses" is a valid question, of course. But it seems to me that if a field of study claims to be a budo, then asking about the martial effectiveness of either the art or an individual practitioner is completely legit.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 06:43 PM   #70
Gorgeous George
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 464
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I'm not fluent in Japanese, but my references for the language certainly translate it that way.

武 -- BU -- of or pertaining to military matters
道 -- DO -- way, art, way of life

武道 -- budo -- martial way, martial art

What translation for budo would you prefer?

Whether a martial art/budo is only, or even primarily, about "kicking asses" is a valid question, of course. But it seems to me that if a field of study claims to be a budo, then asking about the martial effectiveness of either the art or an individual practitioner is completely legit.

Katherine
I'm of the same opinion.

I recall reading a speech by O'sensei, where (to paraphrase) he says that the reason the world is in the state is in, is because those with the wisdom/correct spirit to guide society, have been lacking this martial ability: might trumps right - but if right can negate might (as aikido is said to be able to) then society can progress.

Or you can flounce about with ribbons, and talk about peace, and not wanting to be martially effective...while the world burns.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 06:55 PM   #71
Gorgeous George
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 464
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Graham,

thanks for your observations.

Ting asks some good questions in his response to you, regarding visible and invisble factors. Physical balance breaking is plain to see. It is the kuzushi that most are familiar with. I have no problem with the basic nature of this. However, if the mind/ki is led correctly, the body has little option but to follow. This is closer to what is being seen, than in the alternative clip you provide below.

Good question, but I doubt it. I spend more time now exploring the truth in the basic movements, than I did when I was at a similar level to yourself.

Interesting clip, it is obvious to see the uke being stretched, but my question would be, why does the uke give himself away so easily? He stands quite static allowing his arm to be drawn away from his body, thereby losing connection with his centre and the ground. This is common for most ukemi I watch being done. It is easy to throw someone, who gives themselves away like this.

I agree with this,

I too train under a man of undoubted great power, who never spends time intellectualising aikido, a true man of budo. He no longer asks for uke to be strong, to push him, stop him moving etc. he went through all, that along time ago in the early years. He now insists that uke is relaxed, sincere in their attack, that they stay connected throughout the attack, and they don't give themselves away. He has mastered the non resistance that is at the heart of aikido. It is a phenomenal experience to be thrown with such effortless power.

As you practice and improve your own aikido, I'm sure you will see things in others that you cannot see at the moment, such is the nature of all of this.

Personally, I enjoy watching different types/styles of aikido, I learn more from trying to understand them, than by watching demos of ki aikido, which I think I understand to a decent level already.

regards,

Mark
the point I was making, is that neither his mind nor body appears to be led; if someone wants to resist, it appears that they can. Also: with regards the ikkyo at the beginning - i've always been taught that that's bad from both uke's, and nage's perspective: 'aiki' denotes connection; yet, uke got away from nage, and nage had to catch up to him; not only is that a lack of aiki, but a lack of martial awareness - and without the martial element, the techniques of aikido make no sense whatsoever.

You want to know why Gozo Shioda's uke for an instructional tape of Yoshinkan aikido's techniques, gives himself away easily?

If somebody's centred, they cannot be thrown; in aikido, you take somebody's balance, and can therefore throw them with ease.

The point of the instructor asking that his students test him, is to validate the effectiveness of his technique - i.e., so nobody looks at it and says "That's fake: he's taking a dive for him."; if I saw something similar in the Ki Aikido I have seen, I might actually regard it as effective.

I know there are things I cannot see at the moment; however, I can tell when somebody is sincerely reacting to a technique - and when they are feigning it: it's happened to me often enough.

Sincerely

- Graham
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 07:02 PM   #72
Gorgeous George
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 464
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
By the way, Is BAF similar to BAB? Sensei K is with the BAB and if I remember correctly, used t be invited to teach in their cross affiliation seminars way back when.

There's a test that he does he didn't show in the vid. I've always been impressed with it. He'll stand on his rear leg and have someone push his outstretched leading hand. You can't push him over. It's a basic ki test, one that tohei has a picture of. I'm pretty sure I pushed him quite hard before and cpuldn't budge him. Yet, that isn't the point of the exercise either. It's more of a way to build up nage's centering ability,

As for the ukemi I can't say it's bad or good. But the point was to walk straight at the end of the round. This is make sure you move from the center not the eyes,
Hi, Ahmad.

The BAB is the body all aikido organisations in the UK belong to, I believe: it provides insurance, regardless of style.
The BAF is the main aikikai affiliate, I believe.

I believe I have seen his ki test videos.

Regards

- Graham
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 07:21 PM   #73
SteveTrinkle
Dojo: Aikido Kenkyukai International
Location: Ambler, Pennsylvania
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 232
United_States
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
What does measuring the effectiveness of a martial artist have to do with disrespecting them?
Dan
I think this question is key. I think that many folks have a hard time separating their identity and self worth from a critique of their action. And it's certainly not only in martial arts. Training to be a therapist, I had to go through hours of my teachers and colleagues observing via closed circuit TV my therapy sessions and tearing my technique apart and telling me where I sucked. Horrible! I first felt attacked on a personal level. At first I felt like they were tearing me apart, and I had to get over it if I wanted to take advantage of, and learn from the experience. I grew to welcome this kind of training.

My thoughts.....

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 07:41 PM   #74
SteveTrinkle
Dojo: Aikido Kenkyukai International
Location: Ambler, Pennsylvania
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 232
United_States
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

I should add - I continue on a regular basis, in my work, to go throughout this process of intensive examination and critique of my theory and techniques, approaches and outcomes with colleagues and senior therapists. This is called clinical supervision. To not do this is highly unethical. So, I do the same thing with my aikido.

Well, I hope this analogy fits somewhat.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2011, 09:19 PM   #75
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hi Hugh,
Don't take it personal, but I'm going to ask you to support some things.
<clutches pearls> Oh, the horror!

I'm not competent to claim that this or that Aikido technique isn't in Daito-Ryu, and I'm not going to try. Instead, I focus on what O-Sensei chose to demonstrate vs. what Daito-Ryu masters choose to demonstrate. Public demonstrations may not be a perfect representation of the art, but they do at least show what the master in question thought people should see of their art.

So have a look at the 1935 Asahi news file video. That's fairly early on in the Daito-Ryu/Aikido transition, but there's nothing there technically that would look out of place in a Modern Aikido (tm) dojo. Well, except the general excellence. (And the weird habit of ending with one hand high, palm up, the other low, palm down. What's that about? )

Conversely, there's not much there that looks like what Daito-Ryu people choose to show when asked to demonstrate their art. Perhaps there's little there that they couldn't show if they chose to, but they don't generally choose to--it's apparently not what they consider most important.

So it seems to me that at this point O-Sensei is already demonstrably moving in a new direction. Couple that with the story of him escaping Takeda Sokaku by sneaking away at night, abandoning his (Daito-Ryu) dojo to his former teacher, and the story writes itself.

Sagawa and Kodo, as you point out, continued to call what they did Daito-Ryu. Why, when O-Sensei did not? Could it be that though they saw themselves as modifying the teaching they received, they saw their own arts as extensions of Sokaku's art? Whereas Ueshiba saw what he was doing as something essentially different?

And again, the reaction of the other martial artists of his time. Did they go to Sagawa or Kodo, asking them what they called their art and refusing to take "Daito-Ryu" as an answer? Yet it seemed to be accepted that this Ueshiba thing needed a new name.

I don't want to downplay your point that O-Sensei infused his art with his spiritual insight, by the way. I think that was certainly a key influence on what he decided to keep and what he threw away. In my view, he kept the movement that reinforced the spiritual attitude he wanted to engender: centered in the six directions, neither aggressive nor defensive, overcoming conflict by negating conflict. That became the core of his art, and he threw away extraneous techniques like a sculptor throws away all the material that doesn't contribute to the image he wants to present.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 14 Peter Goldsbury Columns 38 07-31-2009 11:19 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 6 Peter Goldsbury Columns 35 03-13-2009 06:16 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 10 Peter Goldsbury Columns 200 02-04-2009 06:45 AM
The continued Evolution of Aikido salim General 716 12-27-2008 10:00 PM
Two things. Veers General 8 04-04-2003 01:54 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:56 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate