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Old 09-02-2011, 02:04 PM   #26
Mark Freeman
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Off the top off my head: what stood out most was the shiho-nage. When Mr Kalesnikov had folded his arm back, the uke was stood there, in perfect kamae; I never see any kuzushi - his balance is never taken - in the other techniques, either.
Hi Graham,

thanks for your observations.

Ting asks some good questions in his response to you, regarding visible and invisble factors. Physical balance breaking is plain to see. It is the kuzushi that most are familiar with. I have no problem with the basic nature of this. However, if the mind/ki is led correctly, the body has little option but to follow. This is closer to what is being seen, than in the alternative clip you provide below.

Quote:
I might not have been training for long, but surely that means i'm more familiar with the basics of effective technique (as i'm always reminded of them when being corrected)?
Good question, but I doubt it. I spend more time now exploring the truth in the basic movements, than I did when I was at a similar level to yourself.

Quote:
Compare that shiho-nage, with this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAVP7F89cpU

Uke is stretched (has his balance broken), hence the throw is easily accomplished.
Interesting clip, it is obvious to see the uke being stretched, but my question would be, why does the uke give himself away so easily? He stands quite static allowing his arm to be drawn away from his body, thereby losing connection with his centre and the ground. This is common for most ukemi I watch being done. It is easy to throw someone, who gives themselves away like this.

Quote:
I was at a class the other day, where two people taught, then the head instructor closed the class: he said that it was good that they emphasised the importance of staying 'alive' as uke - that's what aiki is, isn't it...? That way, you can feel the technique, and you can counter if an opening presents itself.
I agree with this,

Quote:
I understand that people train a certain way for decades - and they like what they're doing; but I also train under a man of immense power, who frequently asks that uke is strong; tries to push him over; stop him moving etc. - someone who teaches people whose aikido I have no doubt about: people who don't spend their time intellectualising aikido, but just doing it; he remarks that he trained a certain way for decades - then finally understood, and now he actually has very powerful aikido.
I too train under a man of undoubted great power, who never spends time intellectualising aikido, a true man of budo. He no longer asks for uke to be strong, to push him, stop him moving etc. he went through all, that along time ago in the early years. He now insists that uke is relaxed, sincere in their attack, that they stay connected throughout the attack, and they don't give themselves away. He has mastered the non resistance that is at the heart of aikido. It is a phenomenal experience to be thrown with such effortless power.

Quote:
I might not be very good at aikido - but then, i'm not very good at cricket: but I still know a good shot when I see one.

All the best.
As you practice and improve your own aikido, I'm sure you will see things in others that you cannot see at the moment, such is the nature of all of this.

Personally, I enjoy watching different types/styles of aikido, I learn more from trying to understand them, than by watching demos of ki aikido, which I think I understand to a decent level already.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 09-02-2011, 02:07 PM   #27
Patrick Hutchinson
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Hello Mark,

you don't know me, so I'll ignore the chiding and the condescension.
I'm quite familiar with push tests, and unless you're saying that the way Ki aikido does them is utterly different, then please explain:

a. You can only be "sensitive enough to feel for any tension" if you're pushing lightly. Really?

b. In both "tests" in the video, nage exhibits slack and appears to adjust when uke lets go. If he is maintaining the correct "mind and body connection" (to use your terms), should he not be stable within himself and not reacting to uke?

c. How can you test the martial efficacy of your stability if uke only ever uses a light push? Where I train, I have to maintain that stability within myself against a 200-lb guy who can push very very hard while being perfectly sensitive.

Patrick
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Old 09-02-2011, 02:36 PM   #28
Abasan
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Graham,

I think you raised valid questions. In fact it was a humorous point raised by the ki dojo when an aikikai lady dropped by to train. They were horrified at her iriminage which approached a clothesline instead of the point the fingers through the eye line that they were used to.

Having gone through both schools and many different teaching styles, I think I can safely say that I get it, either way. Both have their own reasons and they are perfectly valid if taken in each context.

The shihonage and other techniques appear to be martially ineffective. I agree with it. But that it is not the purpose of their training nor would that technique be applied in a real situation either.

To put it simply, Sensei K once asked us how many times have we been mugged or needed to use aikido for 'real'. In his 4 or 5 decades of practice, he hasn't need to once. Thus his aikido practice is really useful if it brings him health and joy, i wouldn't discount his skills should he ever need it though, but there you go...different objectives. A bodybuilder and a power lifter may lift weights but they do it with different objectives and thus accomplish different levels of profficiency.

About the shihonage and the kotegaishe and the other stuff... It's pretty much in keeping with the way tohei does it. You don't return the circle to the lower back by way of extending uke's arm over the shoulder,but they use some imagination in creating the circle. Also it's never a pull but a soft touch. You can try and check it out if you ever meet a guy who does this aikido anyway. Just stand firm and try not to fall down. Even though there isn't kuzushi in the beginning, you'd probably fall regardless.

By the way, Is BAF similar to BAB? Sensei K is with the BAB and if I remember correctly, used t be invited to teach in their cross affiliation seminars way back when.

There's a test that he does he didn't show in the vid. I've always been impressed with it. He'll stand on his rear leg and have someone push his outstretched leading hand. You can't push him over. It's a basic ki test, one that tohei has a picture of. I'm pretty sure I pushed him quite hard before and cpuldn't budge him. Yet, that isn't the point of the exercise either. It's more of a way to build up nage's centering ability,

As for the ukemi I can't say it's bad or good. But the point was to walk straight at the end of the round. This is make sure you move from the center not the eyes,

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 09-02-2011, 02:37 PM   #29
Mark Freeman
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Patrick Hutchinson wrote: View Post
Hello Mark,

you don't know me, so I'll ignore the chiding and the condescension.
I'm quite familiar with push tests, and unless you're saying that the way Ki aikido does them is utterly different, then please explain:

a. You can only be "sensitive enough to feel for any tension" if you're pushing lightly. Really?

b. In both "tests" in the video, nage exhibits slack and appears to adjust when uke lets go. If he is maintaining the correct "mind and body connection" (to use your terms), should he not be stable within himself and not reacting to uke?

c. How can you test the martial efficacy of your stability if uke only ever uses a light push? Where I train, I have to maintain that stability within myself against a 200-lb guy who can push very very hard while being perfectly sensitive.

Patrick
Hi Patrick,

it's true, I don't know you, I was only responding to the dismissive nature of the comment. I apologise if I came across as condescending to you personally.

There are plenty of comments made on these boards, by people who do not fully comprehend what they are dismissing. So I was only trying to shed some light on this particular test. which I understand, is testing mind not just body. It is only an exercise, not proof of martial effectiveness.

I too am familiar with the full on physical pushes to test stability, of course one has to be stable under pressure. I didn't say that the only way to test was to test lightly. In my own experience, I am aware that I am more sensitive to the tension in the other, the more relaxed I am myself'.

I wasn't commenting on how well I thought the demo was being done either.

I'm sure ki aikido does some things differently from other styles, some maybe utterly, however, I see much more similarity to others than difference.

As you may have seen from another thread, I am planning to travel extensively next year, practicing in as many different aikido dojos as possible. I will be out to learn as much as I can and make as many good connections as I can on the way.

Hopefully you will be close to my route, so maybe we could compare tests, and afterwards I will by you a beverage of your choice

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 09-02-2011, 04:32 PM   #30
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Interesting replies

Over the past years I have trained in styles of Tamura Sensei and Suganuma Sensei, but foremost Tamura and one of his students Alain Peyrache is now my teacher The difference between Tamura and Suganuma is quite big, it appears (on seminars and their approach of teaching).
One might observe Suganuma has bigger movements and mainly much more displacements than Tamura. (Same goes for Kanetsuka Sensei and Fujitsa Sensei.) Both work equally well, on the surface. But martially spoken Suganuma Sensei moves around too much. Everything can be done with less displacement, less movement (i.e. more effectively).
Thing is: Suganuma Sensei has less interest in that direction, so his style/teaching is different. Better? Depends on you, what you look for.

He who has trained well can certainly judge the level of understanding of Aikido by looking at a technique. Off course he judges with his developed frame of reference and may approve or disapprove accordingly.

For me when aite(attacker) is stationary and tori(defender) moves around this indicates bad understanding of taking the center. Tori only adapts to meet the speed of aite and remains the center of movement and aite moves around like a satellite.
Like my teacher says: when I am in the center you can run around like Carl Lewis, but I will be faster, always.

babbled enough...sorry....

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
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Old 09-03-2011, 02:39 AM   #31
ryback
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Morihei Ueshiba was born in 1883. The days of the "samurai" were long gone. Daito ryu was not a koryu then or now. And Morihei Ueshiba taught Daito ryu. He did not create a system. Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Koichi Tohei created a system.

Let me quote Sokaku Takeda about his definition of Daito ryu:
"The purpose of this art is not to be killed, not to be struck, not to be kicked, and we will not strike, will not kick, and will not kill. It is completely for self-defense. We can handle opponents expediently, utilizing their own power, through their own aggression. So even women and children can use it."

Morihei Ueshiba, once the most favored student of Sokaku Takeda, was only following his teacher in his own personal way. Morihei Ueshiba added his own personal spiritual ideology to create his aikido, but do not get confused -- he was a Daito ryu aiki man through and through. Nearly everything he did can be traced back to Sokaku Takeda.

It's been written that even Sokaku Takeda dabbled into some spiritual ideology and also did some mystical magical things.

Research reveals that a lot of "common knowledge" about aikido is really not all that accurate. More myth than truth.

Mark
I agree Mark and i always like your research, that's why i said that technicaly daito ryu and aikido are the same. My knowledge isn't inaccurate at all, but i believe that Sokaku Takeda, being a "dojo buster" himself was inconsistant with his own words about the purpose of daito ryu. But for the rest i agree, technicaly they are the same.
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Old 09-03-2011, 02:46 AM   #32
ryback
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Who is to say how much deviation is allowed within a 'style' before it is no longer Aikido?
The art's basic principles and martial effectiveness. If one does his own variations within the art's basic principles, then it is aikido. No need to call it "this or that" style aikido, is just aikido. I don't hate anything either, i just disagree with putting different names on it. It's my opinion anyway...
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Old 09-03-2011, 02:58 AM   #33
ryback
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
It isn't really about how individual practitioners execute techniques. It is about how the training differs, how the art is transmitted. I am not sure if you intend for your post to be as hyperbolic as it sounds but the fact that ki society, yoshinkan. iwama, and mainline Aikido have differences in training methodology is patently obvious. That's what is meant by "different style."
I didn't want to sound hyperbolic in any way, and by the way i agree with you about these differences, they are obvious. Even inside Aikikai there are a lot of differences. For example if you see the current Doshu, Steven Seagal sensei, Christian Tissier sensei and others it's quite obvious that each one has his personal style in executing and in teaching techniques. But none of them is claiming his own style. So what i said is that i disagree with claiming other traditions and putting names and labels on them. But this reflects my own personal view. In fact, i respect some teachers that are claiming their own traditions for their technique (such as real aikido's Nenad Ikras). Although i still disagree with the choise of labeling his style that way, his technique is great and very effective.
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Old 09-03-2011, 04:55 AM   #34
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
The art's basic principles and martial effectiveness. If one does his own variations within the art's basic principles, then it is aikido. No need to call it "this or that" style aikido, is just aikido. I don't hate anything either, i just disagree with putting different names on it. It's my opinion anyway...
Is this not exacty where all the discussions get fueled?
There is no agreement on the basic principles it seems. And there is little agreement on what exactly is martial effective. The latter is quite easy to answer: In Aikido there is always an escape, so it is not martially effective. Aikido was not intended to be. Aiki jujutsu is.
The basic principles for me are those that occur to some degree in every technique. (we emphasize shi sei, ma-ai and kino nagare).

But sure I agree with you there is often no need to distinguish between Aikido practise. One might argue that the only distinction would be Aikido and Tomiki Aikido because on the outset practise and intend is different.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-03-2011, 04:57 AM   #35
andy crowe
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Interesting thread.

I came to Aikido with a background of studying a 'hard' style of Gendai Ju-Jitsu and opted for Ki Aikido within Sensei Kolesnikov's association as I'd previously tried some Tai Chi which, whilst enjoyable, wreaked havoc on my knees.

I stayed with Sensei Kolesnikov's association until 3rd kyu and came to the realization that whilst the practise was enjoyable I was not getting what I wanted out of it (i.e. some element of martial application).

Kolesnikov Sensei was clear when he came to do seminars in my local area that he considered his practise of Aikido to be primarily health-related and consequently did not focus specifically on combat orientations to any great depth (the Tai Chi and Rythmic Gynastic-like Ribbon demonstrations are relatively recent developments of Kolesnikov Sensei. There were not practised nor talked about when I trained with his association 11 years ago).

I, therefore, chose to look elsewhere and joined another local Ki-based Aikido association which I remain a part of currently. The difference is like chalk and cheese in terms of practise. Combat focus is central within this association and is taught throughout the whole syllabus, whilst the Ki Aikido principles developed by Tohei Sensei are retained.

The nub of this is that I have found an expression of Aikido that works for me and enables me to combine elements of Ki, softness and effectiveness. I have had to both adapt my body and mindset to this particular style and also make some changes to my practise to accommodate my ageing and arthritic body (for example, I can only do Iaido and Kokyu Dosa whilst standing as sitting in Seiza is not possible due to the acute pain caused by Arthritis in the top of my Left foot).

To my mind, the debate should not be one of whether one particular style of Aikido is better than another in terms of effectiveness etc. I believe that it should be one of establishing what style works for each individuals body structure, mindset and temperament etc. and why that is the case.

I no longer need to rely on strength and actively use Ki, softness and weight underside to make techniques work. This does not mean that my Aikido is any better or worse than people who may use strength and/or other principles in technique in order to make their Aikido work for them. It's just a different way and means of coming to the same conclusion.

Last edited by andy crowe : 09-03-2011 at 05:03 AM.
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Old 09-03-2011, 05:46 AM   #36
ryback
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Is this not exacty where all the discussions get fueled?
There is no agreement on the basic principles it seems. And there is little agreement on what exactly is martial effective. The latter is quite easy to answer: In Aikido there is always an escape, so it is not martially effective. Aikido was not intended to be. Aiki jujutsu is.
The basic principles for me are those that occur to some degree in every technique. (we emphasize shi sei, ma-ai and kino nagare).

But sure I agree with you there is often no need to distinguish between Aikido practise. One might argue that the only distinction would be Aikido and Tomiki Aikido because on the outset practise and intend is different.
Correct of course. Tomiki is where it seems that they strayed to much. The basic principles are to be centralised, extend ki, lead the opponent without using force and move using more than one orbits (not always though), principles that you can apply into non-resisting techniques. Putting aikido in competition is against both the spirit and the principles. If you watch how they do it, you'll know what i mean. I just see people resisting and grappling...And the goal and intend (as you also mentioned) of practicing changes also.
Aikido was meant to be martially effective and it is. In a real application you can immobilize, or project (through) the attacker according to the situation. You can also disarm him, technicaly is almost the same as daito-ryu.
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Old 09-03-2011, 05:51 AM   #37
danj
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

The last Ki Society seminar I attended in full was by Kataoka Sensei about 8yrs ago, he stated that Aikido isn't a martial art, however grabbing his wrist off an on over the years tells a different story.

I think aikido attracts an interesting subset of the martial art community and Ki Aikido a subset of that. Its not too hard to imagine that a feedback loop of what attracts and keeps students could drive the focus of a dojo/school/style and so the Ki aspect, which is what makes Ki Aikido unique can shift the focus away from 'mainstream' aikido.

Having started in Ki Society and trained around quite a bit in most many other schools of aikido I don't see any style having a monopoly on doing O'Sensei's aikido and those that tend do be doing the best seem to have broken from the mould/constraints of their style somewhat.

As a generalisation its pretty clear that for the rank and file student that the path to martial effectiveness in the short term tends not to be a strength of the Ki Aikido style schools

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Old 09-03-2011, 07:25 AM   #38
sorokod
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
...
Having started in Ki Society and trained around quite a bit in most many other schools of aikido I don't see any style having a monopoly on doing O'Sensei's aikido and those that tend do be doing the best seem to have broken from the mould/constraints of their style somewhat.
Note that not everyone is claiming to do the founder's Aikido, Tohei in particular was quite clear on this point:

"The one essential thing I learned from Ueshiba Sensei was how to relax. He was always relaxed in the face of conflict, which is why his Aikido was so strong. He would do this himself, but he encouraged his young students to hold with as much strength as possible. In Aikido if you are not relaxed you cannot throw a person. It seemed a mystery to us that Ueshiba Sensei could always throw, could always get out of a hold. He would lead your Ki, and could always throw his opponent in the direction he was already going. I began to make rapid progress after I started copying what he did, and paid less attention to what he said. I ended up only keeping about 30% of the techniques I learned from Ueshiba Sensei, changing or dropping the rest. What I really learned from him was not technique, but the true secret of Aikido, non-dissension; not to resist your opponent's strength but to use it."

the complete interview is here:
http://www.toitsu.de/texte/tohei_en.htm

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Old 09-03-2011, 07:42 AM   #39
sorokod
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
Correct of course. Tomiki is where it seems that they strayed to much. The basic principles are to be centralised, extend ki, lead the opponent without using force and move using more than one orbits (not always though), principles that you can apply into non-resisting techniques.
I wonder who was doing the straying here, take a look what Tohei had to say about the origin of his four principles (for the impatient; it's not the founder) :

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NtQDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA44&ots=u-OI5-Ihzp&dq=tohei%20have%20not%20learned%20nothing%20%20from%20ueshiba&pg=PA41#v=one page&q=tohei%20have%20not%20learned%20nothing%20%20from%20ueshiba&f=false

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Old 09-03-2011, 08:05 AM   #40
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

I have not trained with a Ki Aikido dojo/student before but my thought is if it is trained from the standpoint of being a self-defense then I would imagine it to be as effective as anything else out there.

I think that Ki Aikido gets a bad wrap because people come across clowns that tout great ki and perform with mystic like abilities with their own students but cannot do the same with others.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 09-03-2011, 09:06 AM   #41
ronin67
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
I have not trained with a Ki Aikido dojo/student before but my thought is if it is trained from the standpoint of being a self-defense then I would imagine it to be as effective as anything else out there.

I think that Ki Aikido gets a bad wrap because people come across clowns that tout great ki and perform with mystic like abilities with their own students but cannot do the same with others.
I would agree in some cases. I have seen this and don't play along with the magic fencing of KI energy (making people move without touching them). It is either effective thru waza or not. The dojos I practiced in were not in this realm of KI make believe. Hearing some of the Ki Aikido stories, I'm glad I haven't run across this type of Ki Aikido. What I was taught is that KI breathing and extending KI help the waza to be more effective. This was something I was always taught was the biggest reason for the extra stress of KI in KI Aikido. It all ends up improving the waza. Plus to be quite honest, the KI Breathing does relieve allot of stress also and it also helps you always remember your one point easier (if the KI/misogi breathing is done correctly). Thanks for the input Lyle!

May God bless!

Ed

"Aikido can never truly bring peace without the full understanding and application of KI ".
-Me
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Old 09-03-2011, 09:38 AM   #42
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

I think a lot of the issues that arise when it comes to various 'styles' boil down to the fact that they each want to differentiate themselves from the other styles. Ki Society aikido wants to differentiate itself because by all of it's ki exercises and self development etc. and hence that is the focus of its teaching. Why focus on all the other stuff when you get that at any old dojo right? well, the trouble is that new students start training and they see this huge focus on self development and they miss all the other stuff that goes on at other dojos. Sensei probably does all the other stuff, but he doesn't necessarily teach it. Why teach it when that's what everyone teaches? But the his students achieve dan ranks and start their own dojos and they haven't been exposed to it. As far as they're concerned it isn't worthwhile because they haven't been taught it. That's when the problems start arising...

This isn't an attack on Ki aikido by the way, this is an observation about all styles of aikido that try to differentiate themselves from others. Tomiki aikido includes competition and after a few generations it becomes all about the competition. Nishio aikido focuses on atemi and safe positioning, and after a while that is all that is left to some instructors. Their teachers did all the other stuff, but they didn't necessarily teach it, and so their students never learned it. I'm not saying this happens all time. There are obviously a lot of very good Ki Society/Tomiki/Nishio style instructors out there. It is just something that happens occasionally.

I hope all of this makes sense. It is just my theory on where things start to unravel. It's late and I need to get to bed. Maybe I'll be more coherent in the morning.
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Old 09-03-2011, 09:39 AM   #43
ryback
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I wonder who was doing the straying here, take a look what Tohei had to say about the origin of his four principles
Thank you very much for the link, it's realy valuable! By his sayings i understand that Kissomaru had misunderstood the teachings of o'sensei. O'sensei never said that ki is not important, it is aikido's middle syllable for crying out loud! In that case, it seems that Tohei sensei did the right thing by separating himself. My only objection is that he had to use another name and claim his own tradition. As he said, ki is in the universe, aikido is in the universe and no ki, no aikido, so he was teaching aikido. There is only one universe, only one aikido. Don't get me wrong, i don't belong to the Aikikai. Aikikai is an organisation, aikido is not. It's universal.
As for Tomiki, i don't know your opinion, but in my mind his is not aikido at all...
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Old 09-03-2011, 10:48 AM   #44
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
As for Tomiki, i don't know your opinion, but in my mind his is not aikido at all...
Everyone looks at aikido differently. But as far as I know, Morihei Ueshiba thought Tomiki was doing aikido. It was Kisshomaru Ueshiba who did not think highly of what Tomiki was doing. Kisshomaru was the one who did not think Tomiki was doing aikido.

Mark
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:07 AM   #45
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
This isn't an attack on Ki aikido by the way, this is an observation about all styles of aikido that try to differentiate themselves from others. Tomiki aikido includes competition and after a few generations it becomes all about the competition. Nishio aikido focuses on atemi and safe positioning, and after a while that is all that is left to some instructors. Their teachers did all the other stuff, but they didn't necessarily teach it, and so their students never learned it. I'm not saying this happens all time. There are obviously a lot of very good Ki Society/Tomiki/Nishio style instructors.
I believe this is evidence as to why students should expose themselves to a variety of different instructors. My aikido is continuing to change. I do not like suwari waza but I do not leave it out as it does serve a purpose, just as ki exercises, atemi, big flowing movements, and more direct movements and so on.

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Old 09-03-2011, 11:57 AM   #46
gates
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Everyone looks at aikido differently. But as far as I know, Morihei Ueshiba thought Tomiki was doing aikido. It was Kisshomaru Ueshiba who did not think highly of what Tomiki was doing. Kisshomaru was the one who did not think Tomiki was doing aikido.

Mark
Hi Mark

Mr. Tomiki told me the following: "What I studied at that time was Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu, not Aikido. So I don't understand present-day Aikido".
(http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=445)

Seems that it was Tomiki himself was quite clear and open about the fact that what he was doing was more akin to Daito Ryu than the new Aikido.

Nowhere have I read K. Ueshiba explicitly or otherwise state that he thought badly of what Tomiki was doing, more that it was different and suggested a name change to avoid confusion.

In another interview with Kisshomaru it is suggested that in fact Tomiki did consider carefully changing the name but he had many students and was also afraid of being expelled by M Ueshiba. (Aikido Masters, Stan P) He was promoted to 8th Dan in 1940 so M. Ueshiba obviously thought quite highly of him too.

"Together with O'Sensei, I will forever remember Kenji Tomita as an unforgettable benefactor who is deep in our hearts. Perhaps as long as Aikido continues, the practioners of Aikido should offer him heartfelt prayers of appreciation" K. Ueshiba in reference to Tomiki in relation to the second omoto incident.
(A life in Aikido, page 218)

Regards
Keith

Enjoy the journey
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Old 09-03-2011, 12:04 PM   #47
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
I wonder who was doing the straying here, take a look what Tohei had to say about the origin of his four principles (for the impatient; it's not the founder)
He does state that he informed O'Sensei of what he had discovered (formulated may be a better way of putting it), to me this has an implied acceptance and approval.

Obviously things kept evolving (as they tend to do) and your guess is as good as mine as to what O'Sensei would have thought at the time of the split.

Keith

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Old 09-03-2011, 01:44 PM   #48
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Hi Mark

Mr. Tomiki told me the following: "What I studied at that time was Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu, not Aikido. So I don't understand present-day Aikido".
(http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=445)

Seems that it was Tomiki himself was quite clear and open about the fact that what he was doing was more akin to Daito Ryu than the new Aikido.
I would agree. But, we have to look at Morihei Ueshiba, too. Ueshiba was doing Daito ryu techniques until he died. He was embodying Daito ryu aiki until he died. The difference being that his spiritual ideology was far different than anyone else. So, if Ueshiba was considered to be doing "aikido" after the war, we must then state that Tomiki was doing "aikido" after the war.

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Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Nowhere have I read K. Ueshiba explicitly or otherwise state that he thought badly of what Tomiki was doing, more that it was different and suggested a name change to avoid confusion.
Um, you won't find it written down in any printed books. I've read and done enough research from what people have stated and written online that I've just taken it as true that Kisshomaru was not at all pleased with Tomiki. While ever being the true gentleman, Kisshomaru, wouldn't have necessarily outright stated such things, but from the people around him and his actions, it's pretty much a given that Kisshomaru strongly disliked what Tomiki was doing.

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Keith Gates wrote: View Post
"Together with O'Sensei, I will forever remember Kenji Tomita as an unforgettable benefactor who is deep in our hearts. Perhaps as long as Aikido continues, the practioners of Aikido should offer him heartfelt prayers of appreciation" K. Ueshiba in reference to Tomiki in relation to the second omoto incident.
(A life in Aikido, page 218)

Regards
Keith
Up to this point, things are good. But, you've confused two people here. Kenji Tomita was the head of the Osaka-Fu Police who saved Ueshiba during the second Oomoto kyo incident. Kisshomaru was referring to him and not to Tomiki.

Mark
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Old 09-03-2011, 01:56 PM   #49
andy crowe
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

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Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post

I think that Ki Aikido gets a bad wrap because people come across clowns that tout great ki and perform with mystic like abilities with their own students but cannot do the same with others.
I agree completely with this; I can recall being instructed to fall at a certain stage of a technique when I first started Ki Aikido and it certainly led to me believing that my technique was better than it was.

This doesn't happen in the association I moved to. I needed to drop down from 3rd kyu back to 6th kyu and re-learn the syllabus from scratch when I changed association as I just couldn't perform techniques whenever any resistance was applied.

Thankfully not all Ki Aikido is the same in terms of how it is practised.
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Old 09-03-2011, 09:54 PM   #50
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Mark, thanks for clearing up my confusion.

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