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Old 08-29-2011, 01:13 AM   #1
ronin67
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How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Just coureous, how Akikai Aikido practioners learn the concept of KI? How do you learn to extend KI in a technique as compared to muscling thru it? Watching many Aikido videos (Akikai Style) and it just seems to me that they are muscling thru the techniques. Yet, when I watch O'sensei's later videos before his death, he isn't using the pure physical aspect. How does a Akikai student learn how to apply KI? Can you develop this outside of just doing the waza? Thanks and may God bless!

Ed
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Old 08-29-2011, 07:22 AM   #2
Alex Megann
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Ed Duffy wrote: View Post
Just coureous, how Akikai Aikido practioners learn the concept of KI? How do you learn to extend KI in a technique as compared to muscling thru it? Watching many Aikido videos (Akikai Style) and it just seems to me that they are muscling thru the techniques. Yet, when I watch O'sensei's later videos before his death, he isn't using the pure physical aspect. How does a Akikai student learn how to apply KI? Can you develop this outside of just doing the waza? Thanks and may God bless!

Ed
Hi Ed,

I think you will find in general a huge variety of ways of practising as well as of teaching under the Aikikai "umbrella".

My personal experience is that within the Aikikai "muscling thru it" is generally regarded as bad aikido. I don't know your level of experience, but in my opinion it is not always easy at an early level to tell the difference between technically excellent aikido, aikido performed with inner power, and aikido where uke falls too easily (either to make tori look or feel better or simply through habit).

My only time watching a ki aikido class (just one sample, so it is probably not representative) was disappointing - after all the ki exercises in the first part of the class I was expecting superior aikido, but what I did see was surprisingly scrappy and looked pretty ineffective. However, I have been in a couple of classes with Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei (ex-Ki Society), and found him deeply impressive, As I said, there is a lot of variation wherever you go.

I'm not sure either what you mean by "how to apply KI". I'm not convinced that Tohei Sensei's guidelines and the exercises he taught are the same thing as what is often referred to on AikiWeb as "kokyu skills", but that's a whole different discussion.

Alex
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Old 08-29-2011, 08:51 AM   #3
Mark Freeman
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
I think you will find in general a huge variety of ways of practising as well as of teaching under the Aikikai "umbrella".
Hi Alex,

My guess is that this may be true for most, if not all styles of aikido. I hope to find out on my proposed journey next year.

Quote:
My personal experience is that within the Aikikai "muscling thru it" is generally regarded as bad aikido. I don't know your level of experience, but in my opinion it is not always easy at an early level to tell the difference between technically excellent aikido, aikido performed with inner power, and aikido where uke falls too easily (either to make tori look or feel better or simply through habit).
True, I can't imagine any style where muscling through it would be considered anything but bad. Why use effort when you don't have to.

Quote:
My only time watching a ki aikido class (just one sample, so it is probably not representative) was disappointing - after all the ki exercises in the first part of the class I was expecting superior aikido, but what I did see was surprisingly scrappy and looked pretty ineffective. However, I have been in a couple of classes with Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei (ex-Ki Society), and found him deeply impressive, As I said, there is a lot of variation wherever you go.[
What level was the teacher, at the class you visited? what were they lacking? and what was it about Maruyama, that you found so impressive?

Quote:
I'm not sure either what you mean by "how to apply KI". I'm not convinced that Tohei Sensei's guidelines and the exercises he taught are the same thing as what is often referred to on AikiWeb as "kokyu skills", but that's a whole different discussion.
I agree, "how to apply ki?" is a very broad question, which I am not sure can adequately explained anyway, using only words, it HTBF as they say.

I've been following the arguments over what constitutes kokyu skills on these boards for years, probably best to leave that can of worms with the lid on for now.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 08-29-2011, 08:54 AM   #4
ronin67
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Hi Ed,

I think you will find in general a huge variety of ways of practising as well as of teaching under the Aikikai "umbrella".

My personal experience is that within the Aikikai "muscling thru it" is generally regarded as bad aikido. I don't know your level of experience, but in my opinion it is not always easy at an early level to tell the difference between technically excellent aikido, aikido performed with inner power, and aikido where uke falls too easily (either to make tori look or feel better or simply through habit).

My only time watching a ki aikido class (just one sample, so it is probably not representative) was disappointing - after all the ki exercises in the first part of the class I was expecting superior aikido, but what I did see was surprisingly scrappy and looked pretty ineffective. However, I have been in a couple of classes with Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei (ex-Ki Society), and found him deeply impressive, As I said, there is a lot of variation wherever you go.

I'm not sure either what you mean by "how to apply KI". I'm not convinced that Tohei Sensei's guidelines and the exercises he taught are the same thing as what is often referred to on AikiWeb as "kokyu skills", but that's a whole different discussion.

Alex
Alex thanks for your input. I would have to agree to a certain extent. Coming from the Ki Aikido side, it does seem that some just go thru the motion and just fall. However, I have seen some Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido practioners really ensure the extension of Ki is very effective (with painful results on the receiving end). I just can't believe how different the approach is sometimes. When I studied with the Honolulu Ki society, We had some Aikikai Students attend from Japan. It was cool to get a different perspective, but the whole principle of KI seemed almost alien to them, as compared to the level Tohei Sensei instilled in his KI Aikido. Ki Aikido is so soft in nature, many Aikido practitioners dismiss this style all together. I personally have never practiced Aikikai Aikido, so to speculate would not be accurate or fair. It looks real cool, and more harder in nature. The question is, can the extreame soft style of KI Aikido be just as effective in the street as Aikikai Aikido?

May God Bless!

Ed
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Old 08-29-2011, 09:18 AM   #5
Alex Megann
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Alex,

What level was the teacher, at the class you visited? what were they lacking? and what was it about Maruyama, that you found so impressive?
This was quite a few years ago - I guess the teacher was shodan or nidan, which of course isn't an advanced grade in any sense, but he was senior to me at the time, and I was expecting more, given my preconceptions of the Tohei line.

I really liked Maruyama's teaching manner and humble presence in the class, and his aikido seemed to me to be on an unusually high level. As an example, one time he asked me out as uke to hold him ushiro munedakishime (bear-hug from behind), and I felt there was absolutely nothing there to hold. Then I fell over. Mind you, I have felt similar things from teachers within the Aikikai: for instance from Kanetsuka, Yamaguchi and Yamashima Senseis.
Quote:

I've been following the arguments over what constitutes kokyu skills on these boards for years, probably best to leave that can of worms with the lid on for now.
Yup, hence my brevity...

Alex

Last edited by Alex Megann : 08-29-2011 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 08-29-2011, 09:24 AM   #6
Alex Megann
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Ed Duffy wrote: View Post
Ki Aikido is so soft in nature, many Aikido practitioners dismiss this style all together. I personally have never practiced Aikikai Aikido, so to speculate would not be accurate or fair. It looks real cool, and more harder in nature. The question is, can the extreame soft style of KI Aikido be just as effective in the street as Aikikai Aikido?
Shin Shin Toitsu / the Ki Society definitely don't have the monopoly on softness! My experience of the Yamaguchi line (Yamaguchi himself, and also Endo and Yamashima) has shown me what can happen if you let go of muscular effort and replace it with something else. I gather some Aikikai practitioners are sceptical about these teachers, but I for one have no doubts at all...

Alex

Last edited by Alex Megann : 08-29-2011 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:10 AM   #7
Gorgeous George
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Ed Duffy wrote: View Post
Just coureous, how Akikai Aikido practioners learn the concept of KI? How do you learn to extend KI in a technique as compared to muscling thru it? Watching many Aikido videos (Akikai Style) and it just seems to me that they are muscling thru the techniques. Yet, when I watch O'sensei's later videos before his death, he isn't using the pure physical aspect. How does a Akikai student learn how to apply KI? Can you develop this outside of just doing the waza? Thanks and may God bless!

Ed
Muscling the techniques...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbxWbehlB98
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:38 AM   #8
Alex Megann
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

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Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Muscling the techniques...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbxWbehlB98
Nice. Very nice.

Alex
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Old 08-29-2011, 11:00 AM   #9
Gerardo Torres
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Ed Duffy wrote: View Post
Just coureous, how Akikai Aikido practioners learn the concept of KI? How do you learn to extend KI in a technique as compared to muscling thru it? Watching many Aikido videos (Akikai Style) and it just seems to me that they are muscling thru the techniques. Yet, when I watch O'sensei's later videos before his death, he isn't using the pure physical aspect. How does a Akikai student learn how to apply KI? Can you develop this outside of just doing the waza? Thanks and may God bless!

Ed
Aikikai is an organization, not a "style".
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Old 08-29-2011, 11:27 AM   #10
Gorgeous George
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

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Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Nice. Very nice.

Alex
Isn't it?
I love the guy.
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Old 08-29-2011, 11:28 AM   #11
graham christian
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Muscling the techniques...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbxWbehlB98
Enshiro Sensei? Very good, I loved it.

Regards.G.
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Old 08-29-2011, 09:01 PM   #12
ronin67
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
Aikikai is an organization, not a "style".
Fair enough. What specific style, does this organization adhere to? Thanks!

Ed
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Old 08-29-2011, 09:07 PM   #13
robin_jet_alt
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

It doesn't. That is the point. It is an umbrella organisation encompassing the many diverse styles of many different shihans including Yamaguchi-sensei, Saito-sensei, Nishio-sensei, Kisshomaru-doshu etc. Each of these senseis can be as different from each other as as 2 sensei's from different organisations.

I agree with Alex about Maruyama sensei by the way. I found him to be very impressive.
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Old 08-29-2011, 09:37 PM   #14
Chicko Xerri
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

You feel it for yourself when you practice Aikido, regardless of what particular group you train with. Get away from the notion of others, them and styles, there is no aiki in that thinking place. Practice and visualize the feeling that emanates from the basic techniques and you will find the Way to KI feeling for your self through the practice itself.
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Old 08-30-2011, 07:52 PM   #15
ronin67
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Chicko Xerri wrote: View Post
You feel it for yourself when you practice Aikido, regardless of what particular group you train with. Get away from the notion of others, them and styles, there is no aiki in that thinking place. Practice and visualize the feeling that emanates from the basic techniques and you will find the Way to KI feeling for your self through the practice itself.
Ki development only goes so far when performing the different waza. Ki is not a mere feeling (anger, sadness, happiness, etc.), it is the application and human projection of energy from the spirit, generated from the hara (one point). The whole issue of perfecting Ki extension through just waza, is limited. Which was recognized by Tohei Sensei. This was the reason why he developed methods outside of waza to develop Ki and to test its applications. It is a energy many people often relate to a feeling, yet regardless in its mechanics it works outside of mere human feelings. Which explains why extending Ki can still be applied regardless of what feelings or emotions you have at the time. Many people in the Aikido realm would like to attach it to a feeling, yet it isn't. Now if you wish to say, "Through extending KI, I have obtained a great feeling of tranquility", that is the feeling resulting from the projection of Ki. A difficult concept to understand sometimes.

May God bless!

Ed

May God bless!

"Aikido can never truly bring peace without the full understanding and application of KI ".
-Me
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Old 08-30-2011, 09:35 PM   #16
Chicko Xerri
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Sorry Ed I cant explain. why. I feel that way. Blessings to you also.
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Old 08-30-2011, 10:38 PM   #17
ronin67
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Chicko Xerri wrote: View Post
Sorry Ed I cant explain. why. I feel that way. Blessings to you also.
I visited your webpage and watched some of your videos. Some very nice videos and a nice dojo. When was the last time you came to Kamakura, Japan? I apologize for coming across a little self-serving. The whole concept of KI is something that is pondered very deeply in Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido and to be honest it sometimes amazes me how much KI is not taught in other forms of Aikido. I'm still very much a beginner in the extension/application of Ki, but I know from practicing with the Ki Society for a few years, KI comes across to many as a feeling, when it relates more to a projection of energy. We as humans tend to rationalize this energy release as a feeling in many instances. When or if you practice Ki breathing (misogi) you can feel the release of energy leaving your body when you breath-out and you can feel the intake of this energy when breathing in through your nose, to your one point (hara). Becoming one with the universe. Now that is exciting. May God bless you sensei!!!

Ed

"Aikido can never truly bring peace without the full understanding and application of KI ".
-Me
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Old 08-30-2011, 11:53 PM   #18
Chicko Xerri
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Thank you Ed I appreciate your Honest manner. Its wonderful that you have a healthy enthusiasm for the Art and the conviction to expressing your understanding, we learn from one an other in this world. I will visit Kamakura in May 2012 before going to Europe. I love it in Kamakura and I feel so at home while visiting. All the best to you and Kind Regards.

Last edited by Chicko Xerri : 08-30-2011 at 11:55 PM. Reason: used an incorrect date
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Old 08-31-2011, 11:57 AM   #19
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Ed Duffy wrote: View Post
Just coureous, how Akikai Aikido practioners learn the concept of KI? How do you learn to extend KI in a technique as compared to muscling thru it? Watching many Aikido videos (Akikai Style) and it just seems to me that they are muscling thru the techniques. Yet, when I watch O'sensei's later videos before his death, he isn't using the pure physical aspect. How does a Akikai student learn how to apply KI? Can you develop this outside of just doing the waza? Thanks and may God bless!

Ed
Hi Ed,
We in Aikikai learn KI by illumination (other names are : satori or direct experience of Highest Reality). When extending our KI, we can throw aggressive and violent attacker on the street without actually touching him. This is actual default test requirement for shodan (1 degree black belt)

Can you do it? If not you, can anybody in Ki Aikido style do it? If you can do that, could you present it on video please? So we can see if you are not muscling the technique.

You can also present on video your normal dojo practice, I want to make sure you are not muscling the technique on daily basis.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 08-31-2011, 02:40 PM   #20
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
When extending our KI, we can throw aggressive and violent attacker on the street without actually touching him. This is actual default test requirement for shodan (1 degree black belt)
Hi Szczepan -

Ok, so let me get this straight. One of your test requirements for shodan is to have the person testing go out, somehow get violently attacked on the street and throw the attacker without touching him. Is that about right?

That would make a helluva YouTube clip.

Best,

Ron

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Old 08-31-2011, 02:58 PM   #21
Mark Freeman
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Hi Szczepan -

Ok, so let me get this straight. One of your test requirements for shodan is to have the person testing go out, somehow get violently attacked on the street and throw the attacker without touching him. Is that about right?

That would make a helluva YouTube clip.

Best,

Ron
Hi Ron,

I think he is writing with his tongue firmly in his cheek and not adding the appropriate smiley. I agree, though, it would make a good youtube clip, can't wait.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:06 PM   #22
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Ron,

I think he is writing with his tongue firmly in his cheek and not adding the appropriate smiley. I agree, though, it would make a good youtube clip, can't wait.

regards,

Mark
Hi Mark -

I kind of figured that, but with Szczepan you never can be too sure.

Best,

Ron

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Old 08-31-2011, 07:52 PM   #23
ronin67
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hi Ed,
We in Aikikai learn KI by illumination (other names are : satori or direct experience of Highest Reality). When extending our KI, we can throw aggressive and violent attacker on the street without actually touching him. This is actual default test requirement for shodan (1 degree black belt)

Can you do it? If not you, can anybody in Ki Aikido style do it? If you can do that, could you present it on video please? So we can see if you are not muscling the technique.

You can also present on video your normal dojo practice, I want to make sure you are not muscling the technique on daily basis.
Now that is truly amazing. I have to see that. Please post a video. So Aikido practitioners under the organization of the Aikikai learn KI through satori (how do you get to this state if KI isn't stressed) and the direct experinece thru the highest reality (which higher reality/thru religious enlightenment or the most realistic street reality)? That is deep. However, I've not seen that in any of the Aikido practices I observed here in Japan, under the Aikikai organization. However, that doesn't mean that it isn't done. So how do you develop a deeper understanding of KI through just waza? That is all I'm asking. I'm just interested in knowing anything that would further enhance my understanding of KI, outside of what I already practice with the KI Society? Thanks for the entertaining answer sir.

May God bless (or that highest reality) !

Ed

Last edited by ronin67 : 08-31-2011 at 07:56 PM.

"Aikido can never truly bring peace without the full understanding and application of KI ".
-Me
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Old 09-02-2011, 07:50 AM   #24
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Hi Szczepan -

Ok, so let me get this straight. One of your test requirements for shodan is to have the person testing go out, somehow get violently attacked on the street and throw the attacker without touching him. Is that about right?

That would make a helluva YouTube clip.

Best,

Ron
Hi Ron,
First of all, discussing about KI in Spiritual part of forum must be some kind of cruel joke. It clearly means that Ed has no idea what spirituality means, even if he sign his post with a lot of God blessing.

Also, Ed, from what he is writing here is deeply convinced, that Ki Aikido is not muscling techniques, while all aikido world happily do it. It is a variation of old pattern "my style is better than your style". And what are the bases for his statement? Watching YT videos and practice in 1 or 2 aikido dojo. How ridicule it is? It is as ridicule as my post to him.

Of course he understood nothing at all. That's life. One day 10 years old girl will kick his ass, may be such terrific and scary event will destroy his fantasy about KI Aikido as an effective way to learn self defense.

Or maybe not -- and for the rest of his life he will remain convinced that it was only possible because she muscled her technique hahahahahaha

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 09-02-2011, 08:20 AM   #25
ronin67
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Re: How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hi Ron,
First of all, discussing about KI in Spiritual part of forum must be some kind of cruel joke. It clearly means that Ed has no idea what spirituality means, even if he sign his post with a lot of God blessing.

Also, Ed, from what he is writing here is deeply convinced, that Ki Aikido is not muscling techniques, while all aikido world happily do it. It is a variation of old pattern "my style is better than your style". And what are the bases for his statement? Watching YT videos and practice in 1 or 2 aikido dojo. How ridicule it is? It is as ridicule as my post to him.

Of course he understood nothing at all. That's life. One day 10 years old girl will kick his ass, may be such terrific and scary event will destroy his fantasy about KI Aikido as an effective way to learn self defense.

Or maybe not -- and for the rest of his life he will remain convinced that it was only possible because she muscled her technique hahahahahaha
Still waiting for an answer for the PM I sent you. Why the hate towards KI Aikido? I get it, you like making a show in front of everyone. Please respond to my personal message frenchy. Thanks.

May God Bless (yes even you).

Ed

"Aikido can never truly bring peace without the full understanding and application of KI ".
-Me
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