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Old 08-31-2011, 01:06 PM   #26
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Neutralizing.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Ok, back up this train. I am confused. So Graham is defining this new term, "active non-resistence." Fine. And in defining this term, he claims that active non-resistence is a neutral perspective. Then we get a couple more of his posts and he then says that we need to remove negative emotions:

So how can this attitude actually be neutral state of mind? Aren't we now creating a positive state of mind? That's fine if that is what you are saying, but it is not neutral.
IF we remove from our emotive state some list of subjectively identified emotions, how that create a neutral state of mind? It cannot.

What about all of the good intentions that are paving the way to hell? What about the blame that we were only trying to help? What about all of the poor decisions that result from good feelings? Your argument is decidedly one-sided and closed, contrary to the very premise of your advocation.

How can we express compassion or empathy for others if we only experience positive emotions? How can we be motivated to justice if we do not experience outrage? How can we understand joy if we have not felt sadness?

This is ying and yang. Our emotions are designed to help us act. Some emotions are not enjoyable feelings, that does not make them negative or bad. Some emotions may be foundational for poor decisions, that does not make them bad.

Advocate moderation of emotions. Advocate an open perspective. Advocate a stillness of the mind. Whatever. But I echo mary's post, you need to figure out what you are saying.
Hi Jon.
What I say may be new to you or different to how some look at things but I have figured out what I'm saying thank you. Granted, explaining it over the web in words is a challenge.

For instance I did say state of being, not state of mind, although the best state of mind will also be there with it.

Neutral I said is active not passive and therefore it is positive.

Good intentions paving the way to hell is a stupid saying probably made by someone justifying their own failures or maybe even to keep others negative, who knows. Good intentions are part of the path to heaven obviously but it takes more than just intention.

Compassion and empathy come from love my friend, a supremely positive emotion. Experience joy and you'll know how you can experience it and you don't need to compare it to anything.

I think you will find even in your own Aikido if you allow yourself to get upset or angry or raging then you lose your perspective, concentration, sense, sensibility, and generally get dumped. Watch any professional boxing etc.

Aikido or any martial art teaches you not to be led by your negative emotions, it's a major part of the martial aspect I think you'll find. It therefore could be carried into daily life.

I understand many people love holding on to their negative emotions, very unwise in my view.

So excuse me but I will carry on advocating positive emotions only along with the spirit of joy etc. Even if I feel down my responsibility is to enjoy the feeling and thus move through it.

Regards.G.
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Old 08-31-2011, 02:43 PM   #27
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Neutralizing.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Another thought: denial does not create reality. Denying your emotions, saying that they just don't exist or you won't let yourself feel them, doesn't translate into reality. Repressed anger or fear or resentment is still there, it still has power, and it still causes you to act out in ways that you may not even be aware of -- particularly if you are in denial that you have these emotions.
This is why I responded to Graham. When you ignore something, that something does not disappear, but is still very part of you as a whole. And like you said may still affect you, knowingly or not knowing.
In the meantime he has responded, but I do not think I fully understand his position/view yet.
I can relate to higher level concentration(awareness) moving emotion aside temporarily. Evidence can be found in the fact that people are overwelmed by emotions after helping victims/casualties in war/accidents. At the time of need they act, but afterwards the body/soul drains....

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:53 PM   #28
phitruong
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Re: Neutralizing.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post

Neutral I said is active not passive and therefore it is positive.

.
so positive is the new definition for neutral? so what is the new definition for the old positive? what about the old negative, would that be neutral, since everything sort of move up the scale a notch.

just curious, why would one not want to feel negative emotions? i meant, without hate, how do you know what love is? without anger, how do you know what calm? without women, can there be men? without alcohol, how do we know what is drunk? without cabbage and bean, how can we know what is ki?
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Old 08-31-2011, 04:56 PM   #29
Mark Freeman
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Re: Neutralizing.

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
This is why I responded to Graham. When you ignore something, that something does not disappear, but is still very part of you as a whole. And like you said may still affect you, knowingly or not knowing.
In the meantime he has responded, but I do not think I fully understand his position/view yet.
I can relate to higher level concentration(awareness) moving emotion aside temporarily. Evidence can be found in the fact that people are overwelmed by emotions after helping victims/casualties in war/accidents. At the time of need they act, but afterwards the body/soul drains....
Hi Tim,

IMHO higher level awareness, does not move emotion aside, it is above the emotion, not in it. It sees the emotion for what it is, a temporary state which is passing though our being. This level of awareness allows action to be taken, that is not driven by the emotion itself. It is relatively easy to attain and maintain this level of awareness, when the emotions are mild to middling. For most of us, mastering this, is just like becoming fairly competent aikidoka. We can do it, as long as the pressure doesn't get too great.

Mastery (which I am a long way off of, by the way), is when powerful emotions as you describe, are experienced. And higher level awareness is still maintained and 'right' actions are taken, despite the emotion.

Most of us get sucked from the higher level, down into the raging fire of the emotion itself.We then experience it from the inside out. This is where we act from, and the results are what they are. They can be seen as good or bad, if you wish to engage in dualistic thinking.

Powerful emotions drive people to do unspeakably horrific things to each other. Great drivers being fear and greed (and greed is driven by fear anyway). The only way for us as humans to create less mayhem in the world, is for each and every one of us, to engage in whatever practice we can find that works for us, that raises our level of awareness. Then we may see our emoyions for what they are, and we can then maybe we can act with neutrality/equanimity/compassion/love.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 08-31-2011, 05:02 PM   #30
Mark Freeman
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Re: Neutralizing.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
so positive is the new definition for neutral? so what is the new definition for the old positive? what about the old negative, would that be neutral, since everything sort of move up the scale a notch.

just curious, why would one not want to feel negative emotions? i meant, without hate, how do you know what love is? without anger, how do you know what calm? without women, can there be men? without alcohol, how do we know what is drunk? without cabbage and bean, how can we know what is ki?
Hi Phi,

without women, men would be drunk most of the time, we'd be beating the crap out of each other, for much of it, in between eating plenty of beans and cabbage, producing and expelling loads of ki, because there would be no women around to remind us how disgusting we were.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 08-31-2011, 07:59 PM   #31
graham christian
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Re: Neutralizing.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Graham

Have you actually faced a live blade ?
My son Rik has - when a guy burst in on a party he was at. there was wall to wall poop until Rik disarmed the nutter without injury to himself or anyone else.

Henry Ellis
Toe Breathing in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
Ah Henry.
I remeber reading that story of your son somewhere. Firstly I would say I can only admire such an act. For me it's an example of true warrior spirit and is humbling to see. If I was to carry that with me at all times in all situations that would surely be a dream come true.

As to have I ever faced a live blade? Well yes.
In training now and in the past intensive training with my old teacher we of course used the bokken. However, at one time in that past where I seemed to be stuck, I was continuing to try to do a particular technique from a fast attack, he brought out his real Katana.

He unwrapped it and faced me. I was not scared and I was ready. In my mind I trusted him and knew he would cut through and that his sole purpose was to teach me something I wasn't getting. Low and behold he acknowledged me with a bow and handed me the sword. He then asked me to cut, to do shomenuchi on him.

I nearly feinted. I trembled and turned turned to jelly. On regaining my composure, seeing all kinds of thoughts pouring through my mind about what if...... I finally managed a solution which was to cut with intention and yet stop before I hit him. I did. He didn't move. He merely looked at me smiling and told me'Now if your ready and would care to stop f'ing about would you kindly do what you're meant to do. I did, I ended up flying through the air and there he was holding the sword. Thus I found my real barrier right there.

Funny thing was he then called for multiple attacks on me and they were now no problem. Thought you might enjoy that as your question took me back there.

So live blades in life I have faced yes, all in the forms of knives though. Oh, plus one pair of scissors ha ha.

So I'm not saying if someone was threatening me with a samurai sword I would look at it as nothing, far from it, but if god forbid it happened I know through my training what I should do. As always you never know how you will react in the real situation. I find generally I go calm and focussed in real danger though and that's about as much as I can say.

Regards.G.
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Old 08-31-2011, 08:19 PM   #32
graham christian
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Re: Neutralizing.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
so positive is the new definition for neutral? so what is the new definition for the old positive? what about the old negative, would that be neutral, since everything sort of move up the scale a notch.

just curious, why would one not want to feel negative emotions? i meant, without hate, how do you know what love is? without anger, how do you know what calm? without women, can there be men? without alcohol, how do we know what is drunk? without cabbage and bean, how can we know what is ki?
Hi Phi.
Positive isn't the definition of it, just the action of it. One thing I do smile at sometimes is indeed the use of the word positive. Positive action, affirmative action. Commonly used to do something harmful.

So yes I do smile at these things for I see determined negative actions, determined or even enthusiastic negative actions so to me they are not positive.

Why would one not want to feel negative emotions? Because they negate. Come on now you don't like feeling uncomfortable do you?
This doesn't mean run away from them it means face them with non-resistance but the funny thing is if you actually do that they dissipate. Here's another funny thing, if you face good emotions with non-resistance they grow.

From my view you do not need one thing to recognise another. That's a fallacy which unfortunately many believe. When you experience the taste of cabbage you then know the taste of cabbage. No comparisons needed although you can do so as a mental exercise if you wish. If all you had ever met were men then you would know what a man is. No comparisons available in that example.

There will be no doubt some people on this planet who have never experience hate yet they may be well aware of love. (lucky so and so) On the other hand unfortunately there will be some who have experienced hate and are well aware of it yet have never experienced love. More in that last category I would suspect.

Regards.G.
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Old 08-31-2011, 08:23 PM   #33
graham christian
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Re: Neutralizing.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Phi,

without women, men would be drunk most of the time, we'd be beating the crap out of each other, for much of it, in between eating plenty of beans and cabbage, producing and expelling loads of ki, because there would be no women around to remind us how disgusting we were.

regards,

Mark
Hi Mark. Without women there probably wouldn't be much left to fight over. Or am I being naive? Ha,ha.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-01-2011, 12:44 AM   #34
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Neutralizing.

Mark,

This is my perception too

I was/am trying to understand Graham's line of thinking, but yet fail to do so.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-01-2011, 07:10 AM   #35
DH
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Re: Neutralizing.

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Mark,
This is my perception too
I was/am trying to understand Graham's line of thinking, but yet fail to do so.
It apears that no none understands him. That should tell you something about the worth of the effort expended in trying to do so. Shouldn't the first step be his..in an honest effort in communicating in order to be understood?
I've extended some serious effort to open up and be softer in my own approach here. Particularly with some of the difficult issues we address with each other. At a certain point, the responsibility is on each of us to care enough to discuss things and at least answer specifically and pointedly with a degree of clarity and transparency that conveys respect. Otherwise there is no reason to engage.
Just say'n
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-01-2011 at 07:19 AM.
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Old 09-01-2011, 07:22 AM   #36
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Neutralizing.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Tim,

IMHO higher level awareness, does not move emotion aside, it is above the emotion, not in it. It sees the emotion for what it is, a temporary state which is passing though our being. This level of awareness allows action to be taken, that is not driven by the emotion itself. It is relatively easy to attain and maintain this level of awareness, when the emotions are mild to middling. For most of us, mastering this, is just like becoming fairly competent aikidoka. We can do it, as long as the pressure doesn't get too great.

Mastery (which I am a long way off of, by the way), is when powerful emotions as you describe, are experienced. And higher level awareness is still maintained and 'right' actions are taken, despite the emotion.

Most of us get sucked from the higher level, down into the raging fire of the emotion itself.We then experience it from the inside out. This is where we act from, and the results are what they are. They can be seen as good or bad, if you wish to engage in dualistic thinking.

Powerful emotions drive people to do unspeakably horrific things to each other. Great drivers being fear and greed (and greed is driven by fear anyway). The only way for us as humans to create less mayhem in the world, is for each and every one of us, to engage in whatever practice we can find that works for us, that raises our level of awareness. Then we may see our emoyions for what they are, and we can then maybe we can act with neutrality/equanimity/compassion/love.

regards,

Mark
Mark, that's a great post. IMO, What you allude to actually works as a guide to finding good training and to a good place in life!

Regards,
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Old 09-01-2011, 07:54 AM   #37
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Neutralizing.

Dan,

point taken

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-01-2011, 09:49 AM   #38
gates
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Re: Neutralizing.

Graham,
Purely in an attempt to satisfy my own desire to understand what it is exactly you are saying, could I paraphrase your idea of neutrality being active as the well known concept of water finding it's way down a mountain stream?
Keith

Enjoy the journey
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Old 09-01-2011, 04:31 PM   #39
graham christian
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Re: Neutralizing.

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Graham,
Purely in an attempt to satisfy my own desire to understand what it is exactly you are saying, could I paraphrase your idea of neutrality being active as the well known concept of water finding it's way down a mountain stream?
Keith
Hi Keith.
Yes you could if you so wish for the water through neutrality, through little resistance, thus follows and flows according to the natural laws of nature.

Physically that is an analogy. Looking at a physical thing, water on a physical thing, a mountain.

Spiritually the rules are different. That is why trying to translate spirit or Ki in a physical manner leads to lots of people coming up with physical, logical sounding explanations, way off the mark.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-01-2011, 07:22 PM   #40
gates
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Re: Neutralizing.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Keith.
Spiritually the rules are different. That is why trying to translate spirit or Ki in a physical manner leads to lots of people coming up with physical, logical sounding explanations, way off the mark.

Regards.G.
This is my outlook in a nutshell:

Philosophy and spirituality were at the core in the founding of Aikido. Ueshiba took a spiritually rich based personal philosophy from a lifetime of study and practice and imbued it into the physical waza.

Some participants chose to extract these philosophical and spiritual lessons from the words and teaching from the founder and make them there own (nothing wrong with that). More importantly (to me) is that they can also be learned and extracted from the physical movements of the waza. Moreover I think this was the intention.

This for me is the key. The techniques can in this way transcend mere physical forms and teach greater lessons of a non physical nature.

Regurgitating an extracted Aikido philosophy is missing the point, for me at least. IMHO Aikido makes Buddhists better Buddhists, Christians better Christians because it reinforces the teachings inherent in those (and other) belief systems in a physical way.

Keith

Enjoy the journey
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Old 09-02-2011, 06:36 PM   #41
graham christian
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Re: Neutralizing.

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
This is my outlook in a nutshell:

Philosophy and spirituality were at the core in the founding of Aikido. Ueshiba took a spiritually rich based personal philosophy from a lifetime of study and practice and imbued it into the physical waza.

Some participants chose to extract these philosophical and spiritual lessons from the words and teaching from the founder and make them there own (nothing wrong with that). More importantly (to me) is that they can also be learned and extracted from the physical movements of the waza. Moreover I think this was the intention.

This for me is the key. The techniques can in this way transcend mere physical forms and teach greater lessons of a non physical nature.

Regurgitating an extracted Aikido philosophy is missing the point, for me at least. IMHO Aikido makes Buddhists better Buddhists, Christians better Christians because it reinforces the teachings inherent in those (and other) belief systems in a physical way.

Keith
I agree with what you say here. With regards to religions, well wouldn't that be a sight to see.

I think that when some people on here think they 'know' me then they can only give themselves a problem. Through my understandings gained from Aikido my purposes for it are multi. I use it for many reasons and therefore the martial or non martial arguments are a bit superfluous to me. They are minor details.

There's so many things to apply the resultant understandings and abilities to. Funny thing is it's all Aikido.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:57 AM   #42
genin
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Re: Neutralizing.

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
This is my outlook in a nutshell:

Philosophy and spirituality were at the core in the founding of Aikido. Ueshiba took a spiritually rich based personal philosophy from a lifetime of study and practice and imbued it into the physical waza.

Some participants chose to extract these philosophical and spiritual lessons from the words and teaching from the founder and make them there own (nothing wrong with that). More importantly (to me) is that they can also be learned and extracted from the physical movements of the waza. Moreover I think this was the intention.

This for me is the key. The techniques can in this way transcend mere physical forms and teach greater lessons of a non physical nature.
Keith
I agree. I've come to realize that O'Sensei was in tune with cosmic source energy, which has since been identified by many others, even outside the martial arts community. He understood the concepts of Deep Ecology, before that was even a well-known concept. He taught us that there is inherent energy within the body, within the waza, which can be transcended into the spiritual realm. And there is a connection of energy between all that is which ties the creation together.

I honestly don't think Aikido was intended to be a physical means of defeating an opponent. Even the physical side of the art is really just a means to refine one's mental prowess.
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