Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Open Discussions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-10-2007, 09:03 PM   #76
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Whoah, there, Tarik-san: let's just tone down the rhetoric.

Sorry if you got ruffled when I accused you of being evasive...but please,

Quote:
I have invited you to read the science and refute the data on more than one occasion, but you accuse me of dodging issues? There is a specific process to "add to science" and your comments don't attempt to actually add anything.
Look, Tarik, you're not getting it. I'm NOT refuting the data...but neither is this "science." Let's be clear...this is a "discussion" about "scientific issues."

If I were arguing with you about the properties of radiation, that's one thing. We could play dueling studies, and cite results from this or that experiment.

But nuclear power involves more than just raw data. Nuclear power is also about the misuse of the contract btw private corporations and the people they serve.

We could well be talking about the history of the Hetch Hetchy plant (SF): as it is comparative. But it's a tangent, never mind...

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
What am I dodging, a discussion of the empirical data and results? You and David have made specific statements about the non-political results of nuclear science and I have refuted them with actual research data.
No...this is untrue. You have refuted our statements because of a LACK of research data. You dismissed them, because we do not offer data, ourselves.

Is this not true?

Quote:
Neil, you must have missed my earlier posts in this thread where I listed specific numbers and data concerning the incident in Japan and offered a comparative analysis.
Perhaps I did. This is not a cross-examination. And I'm wondering why you're getting so defensive...

Quote:
They are still present to be read. You keep accusing me of not addressing issues I have addressed. You are either not reading my posts completely, or you doing some 'dodging' of your own.
Or...you are not including enough of an uncertainty towards how the nuclear industry will be affected by the energy-wolves who control it now.

OK, you argue that it's apples and oranges. Fine.

Quote:
I read the article weeks ago. It's says little of substance other than that people are upset. I am not surprised to hear about more public hysteria around nuclear science, particularly in Japan. Tell me, did they deliberately choose to not mention the actual level of contamination caused, or was it just an oversight?
Sorry you missed the point of the article. Please, allow me to elaborate...the High Court, in effect, assured the residents that their fears were unfounded. Lacking substance, because their facts were in error. In essence, their "science" was off.

Get it now...? If not, then let's move on.

You see, Tarik...all I wanted was this:

Quote:
Neil wrote:
In sum, then, scientific data MAY be objective, but anyone who understands statistics knows that anyone can interpret ANYTHING from statistics--ESPECIALLY if they have motive.
Quote:
Tarik wrote:
I totally agree.
some acknowledgement, that there's more than just data, to the equation.

Thank you.

But here you go off the rails:

Quote:
Instead you attempt to refute things by stating that those who have accomplished them are liars.
Sorry, but you're confusing me with David. I didn't call nuclear scientists, "liars."

Quote:
That's a meaningless argument, particularly since you don't even know the names of the scientists you are accusing, since you refuse to read their research and to establish them as liars. Your examples of liars only mean something about those specific individuals and what they specifically lied about. I don't recall any of them being accused of lying about nuclear science.
huh?

Quote:
On numerous occasions I have offered links to peer reviewed research or hard data supporting my current opinions, but you have offered nothing that is peer reviewed except for a single study you clearly did not read before submitted it since it supported my position concerning the safety of radiation.
Um...that was my point. That there is more to nuclear power, than just arguing statistics. But you seem to want to draag me to your battlefield...

Not really interested.

Quote:
I am ready to declare this conversation pointless
Fair enough. Thank you for an interesting discussion.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 08-10-2007 at 09:15 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 02:21 AM   #77
Guilty Spark
 
Guilty Spark's Avatar
Location: Flordia
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 300
United_States
Offline
Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

I think that means you win Neil

For those of you against nuclear power, how do you feel about submarines and aircraft carriers powered by nuclear?

Also what was the final verdict with motocycle girl. Did she make up the trip?

Last edited by Guilty Spark : 08-11-2007 at 02:27 AM.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 11:19 AM   #78
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 538
United_States
Offline
Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Neil,

It has been interesting to encounter another side of you.

It seems that you attribute a lot of emotional stuff to my responses. Perhaps it's the nature of online discussion that it can be more difficult to ascertain the other persons intent than it is in person.

Anyway, thanks for the experience.

Regards,

Last edited by tarik : 08-11-2007 at 11:27 AM.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2007, 09:29 PM   #79
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Good old Market Control

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote: View Post
For those of you against nuclear power, how do you feel about submarines and aircraft carriers powered by nuclear?

Also what was the final verdict with motocycle girl. Did she make up the trip?
Grant, it looks like the girl made up the "part" of her story about riding through the nuclear wasteland "alone" on a motorcycle. She did make the trip, in a car, with other people and the wasteland really is there. Also, no one has disproven anything she said about the accident, the radiation released, the zone affected, the uninhabitability of the area, the inedibility of the food or the danger of the soil.

As to military ships powered by nuclear reactors, it still seems a very bad idea. Depending, partly, on who runs the ships. Any idea of how many nuclear reactors now reside at the bottom of the sea on wrecked or decommissioned boats? More than a couple. Any idea how many soviet ships went down due to nuclear disasters onboard? At least one. Any idea how many US nuclear weapons have been lost and never recovered (broken arrows)????

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Almanac/Brokenarrows.shtml

"Since 1950, there have been 32 nuclear weapon accidents, known as "Broken Arrows." A Broken Arrow is defined as an unexpected event involving nuclear weapons that result in the accidental launching, firing, detonating, theft or loss of the weapon. To date, six nuclear weapons have been lost and never recovered."

It has been suggested that American nuclear reactors are safer than soviet ones because of the financial risks a free-market corporation would face due to an accident, but..... This just in:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070820/...QRK30nDs6s0NUE

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Yet, what happened at Chernobyl???

It can't happen here....it can't happen here....

surely.

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
I agree. It can't. Surely. Do you know what happened at Chernobyl? What caused it? What could have prevented it? What kind of fail safes exist to prevent it (even in US plants of those days) and how they could possibly fail?
According to that article, it almost did. Looks like my "theory" that it could happen is more than imagination:

"KNOXVILLE, Tenn. - A three-year veil of secrecy in the name of national security was used to keep the public in the dark about the handling of highly enriched uranium at a nuclear fuel processing plant including a leak that could have caused a deadly, uncontrolled nuclear reaction."

So much for fail-safes, huh? And so much for the superior US handling of nuclear matters compared to the soviets, huh?

"The leak turned out to be one of nine violations or test failures since 2005 at privately owned Nuclear Fuel Services Inc., a longtime supplier of fuel to the U.S. Navy's nuclear fleet."

So this private company was not controlled by the risk of financial repercussions from a failure. And they didn't tell the public about their mishandling of nuclear material or the potential for "a deadly, uncontrolled nuclear reaction."

"In 2004, the government became so concerned about releasing nuclear secrets that the commission removed more than 1,740 documents from its public archive even some that apparently involved basic safety violations at the company, which operates a 65-acre gated complex in tiny Erwin, about 120 miles north of Knoxville."

I wonder if any of those documents involved Browns Ferry nuclear plant, which just reopened in Alabama? Wonder if they involve any plants near [i]your[/] family?

And I wonder if, just maybe, there is worse going on that they aren't telling us about????

You'd better believe there is....though there's nothing we can do about it. Except oppose any new nuclear plants.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2007, 09:09 AM   #80
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: Good old Market Control

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Grant, it looks like the girl made up the "part" of her story about riding through the nuclear wasteland "alone" on a motorcycle. She did make the trip, in a car, with other people and the wasteland really is there. Also, no one has disproven anything she said about the accident, the radiation released, the zone affected, the uninhabitability of the area, the inedibility of the food or the danger of the soil.

As to military ships powered by nuclear reactors, it still seems a very bad idea. Depending, partly, on who runs the ships. Any idea of how many nuclear reactors now reside at the bottom of the sea on wrecked or decommissioned boats? More than a couple. Any idea how many soviet ships went down due to nuclear disasters onboard? At least one. Any idea how many US nuclear weapons have been lost and never recovered (broken arrows)????

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Almanac/Brokenarrows.shtml

"Since 1950, there have been 32 nuclear weapon accidents, known as "Broken Arrows." A Broken Arrow is defined as an unexpected event involving nuclear weapons that result in the accidental launching, firing, detonating, theft or loss of the weapon. To date, six nuclear weapons have been lost and never recovered."

It has been suggested that American nuclear reactors are safer than soviet ones because of the financial risks a free-market corporation would face due to an accident, but..... This just in:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070820/...QRK30nDs6s0NUE

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Yet, what happened at Chernobyl???

It can't happen here....it can't happen here....

surely.

According to that article, it almost did. Looks like my "theory" that it could happen is more than imagination:

"KNOXVILLE, Tenn. - A three-year veil of secrecy in the name of national security was used to keep the public in the dark about the handling of highly enriched uranium at a nuclear fuel processing plant — including a leak that could have caused a deadly, uncontrolled nuclear reaction."

So much for fail-safes, huh? And so much for the superior US handling of nuclear matters compared to the soviets, huh?

"The leak turned out to be one of nine violations or test failures since 2005 at privately owned Nuclear Fuel Services Inc., a longtime supplier of fuel to the U.S. Navy's nuclear fleet."

So this private company was not controlled by the risk of financial repercussions from a failure. And they didn't tell the public about their mishandling of nuclear material or the potential for "a deadly, uncontrolled nuclear reaction."

"In 2004, the government became so concerned about releasing nuclear secrets that the commission removed more than 1,740 documents from its public archive — even some that apparently involved basic safety violations at the company, which operates a 65-acre gated complex in tiny Erwin, about 120 miles north of Knoxville."

I wonder if any of those documents involved Browns Ferry nuclear plant, which just reopened in Alabama? Wonder if they involve any plants near [i]your[/] family?

And I wonder if, just maybe, there is worse going on that they aren't telling us about????

You'd better believe there is....though there's nothing we can do about it. Except oppose any new nuclear plants.

David
Yeah, and maybe nuclear power and EARTHQUAKES don't mix, either. Call me koo-koo, but does this sound safe to you? Having lived through some flipping big earthquakes ( Loma Prieta 1989, etc... ) I can tell you of the violent, impersonal activity of the earth and the inconsequence of 'strong' buildings. This power plant www.ksby.com/Global/story.asp?S=6797790 was built before they knew that there was a huge fault underneath. When that sucker blows we'll talk about safety and whose 'fault' is it. We've all just ducked our heads and have hoped for the best. Sounds like crappy martial arts to me.

As usual,David 'The Christian' Orange get's my vote.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-24-2007 at 09:12 AM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2007, 09:24 AM   #81
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

/www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12841&page=2

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2007, 10:12 AM   #82
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Good old Market Control

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Yeah, and maybe nuclear power and EARTHQUAKES don't mix, either. Call me koo-koo, but does this sound safe to you? Having lived through some flipping big earthquakes ( Loma Prieta 1989, etc... ) I can tell you of the violent, impersonal activity of the earth and the inconsequence of 'strong' buildings.
I sat through some scary times in Japan 1990-95 and was there when the Kobe earthquake hit (not in Kobe, fortunately). In that earthquake, skyscrapers fell over like trees! Some had the bottom few floors collapse like pancakes and the buildings dropped straight down two or three floors, crushing whomever and whatmever was in there! 5,000 people died from fires while they were trapped for several days in the wreckage.

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
This power plant www.ksby.com/Global/story.asp?S=6797790 was built before they knew that there was a huge fault underneath. When that sucker blows we'll talk about safety and whose 'fault' is it. We've all just ducked our heads and have hoped for the best. Sounds like crappy martial arts to me.
I remember my teacher in college, Ed Passerini, talking about the Diablo Canyon plant back in the 70s, when it was still an evil gleam in the devil's eye. Ed, by the way, built the world's first solar-powered car, back about 1977, and has continued experimentation along that line ever since:

http://www.speedace.info/bluebird_1977.htm

As for Diablo Canyon, I wrote a song about it back in the day. The chorus goes:

"And they broke Jackson Browne's wrist when they arrested him.
They broke the wrist of Mrs. Betty Price.
They broke the wrist of an old man whose name was Leonard Green.
When it comes to gold, their hearts are cold as ice!"


And the wrist-breaking really did happen, including Jackson Browne!
Apparently, the police were using something like kotegaeshi to make people sitting down in the protest crowd get up and move. These people, never having experienced this kind of thing, didn't know how to move, so their wrists broke!

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
As usual,David 'The Christian' Orange get's my vote.
I appreciate your vote, but I do want to stress that I'm not taking any position based purely on religion and especially NOT to oppose anyone due to a perception that they might be of a different religious persuasion than myself.

I respect everyone who is sincere and do not oppose anyone's religious faith or expression as long as it doesn't involve killing anyone or denying them their human rights!


Thanks and Best Wishes to All!

David

Last edited by David Orange : 08-24-2007 at 10:16 AM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2007, 11:50 AM   #83
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: Good old Market Control

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I appreciate your vote, but I do want to stress that I'm not taking any position based purely on religion and especially NOT to oppose anyone due to a perception that they might be of a different religious persuasion than myself.

I respect everyone who is sincere and do not oppose anyone's religious faith or expression as long as it doesn't involve killing anyone or denying them their human rights!


Thanks and Best Wishes to All!

David
Hello,
I certainly don't take you that way, but it probably is a good thing to say because some people might.

My 'nickname' and vote weren't really meant to be literal, but were intended to be spirited and friendly.Kind of like a mexican wrestling team. I think you know that, though .
I was thinking last evening that i hoped you didn't mind the liberty I took with your name.
My feelings surrounding issues of faith and religion sound similar to what you have said above.

It might be significant to mention that my Uncle was a supervisor of a nuclear power plant ,San Onofre, for many years.
So many directions in one family, huh?
Kind of like this aikido family we have on line here.

It is important to note that the conditions that create Liquifaction are being researched in California because we have similar conditions to Kobe.
(http://www.es.ucsc.edu/~es10/fieldtr...Q/Damage1.html)

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-25-2007 at 11:55 AM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2007, 06:39 PM   #84
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 538
United_States
Offline
Re: Good old Market Control

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
It has been suggested that American nuclear reactors are safer than soviet ones because of the financial risks a free-market corporation would face due to an accident, but..... This just in:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070820/...QRK30nDs6s0NUE

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Yet, what happened at Chernobyl???

It can't happen here....it can't happen here....

surely.

According to that article, it almost did. Looks like my "theory" that it could happen is more than imagination:

"KNOXVILLE, Tenn. - A three-year veil of secrecy in the name of national security was used to keep the public in the dark about the handling of highly enriched uranium at a nuclear fuel processing plant including a leak that could have caused a deadly, uncontrolled nuclear reaction."
Let's quote something from later in the article also:
Quote:
Some 35 liters, or just over 9 gallons, of highly enriched uranium solution leaked from a transfer line into a protected glovebox and spilled onto the floor. The leak was discovered when a supervisor saw a yellow liquid "running into a hallway" from under a door, according to one document.

The commission said there were two areas, the glovebox and an old elevator shaft, where the solution potentially could have collected in such a way to cause an uncontrolled nuclear reaction.

"It is likely that at least one worker would have received an exposure high enough to cause acute health effects or death," the agency wrote.
Comparing this incident with something like Chernobyl is rather like comparing a car nearly hitting a pedestrian with a 50 car pileup on the interstate and using that as an argument against the technology.

Quote:
So much for fail-safes, huh? And so much for the superior US handling of nuclear matters compared to the soviets, huh?
No one was actually injured, right? Sounds like something worked to prevent the incidents from escalating.

FWIW, had Chernobyl built a containment building, a requirement in the rest of the world, the explosion would not have contaminated the environment. Finally, as horrible as the event was, I find this interesting:

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_accident
Fauna and vegetation

After the disaster, four square kilometres of pine forest in the immediate vicinity of the reactor turned ginger brown and died, earning the name of the "Red Forest", according to the BBC.[28] Some animals in the worst-hit areas also died or stopped reproducing. Most domestic animals were evacuated from the exclusion zone, but horses left on an island in the Pripyat River 6 km from the power plant died when their thyroid glands were destroyed by radiation doses of 150-200 Sv.[29] Some cattle on the same island died and those that survived were stunted because of thyroid damage. The next generation appeared to be normal.[29]

In the years since the disaster, the exclusion zone abandoned by humans has become a haven for wildlife, with nature reserves declared (Belarus) or proposed (Ukraine) for the area. Many species of wild animals and birds, which were never seen in the area prior to the disaster, are now plentiful, due to the absence of humans in the area.[28]
Quote:
And I wonder if, just maybe, there is worse going on that they aren't telling us about????

You'd better believe there is....though there's nothing we can do about it. Except oppose any new nuclear plants.
It's impossible to prove that something doesn't exist. When you have the evidence, I'll be listening with interest.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2007, 07:13 PM   #85
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Good old Market Control

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
It's impossible to prove that something doesn't exist. When you have the evidence, I'll be listening with interest.
Let's hope the "proof" leaves us around and able to talk and listen.

Regards.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 11:22 PM   #86
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 538
United_States
Offline
Re: Good old Market Control

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Let's hope the "proof" leaves us around and able to talk and listen.
Isn't that the essence of our different points of view, that I'm confident that we will be, and that you are not?

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2007, 12:52 PM   #87
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Good old Market Control

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
Isn't that the essence of our different points of view, that I'm confident that we will be, and that you are not?
Sure, but you seem to be confident in the "engineering" and the "science" of the whole enterprise without sufficient consideration that the engineering and science are then placed in the hands of corporate corner-cutters. Dilbert's boss is ultimately in charge.

So I think it's just a matter of time before we have the equivalent of Chernobyl in the US.

Sadly.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2007, 01:33 PM   #88
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 538
United_States
Offline
Re: Good old Market Control

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Sure, but you seem to be confident in the "engineering" and the "science" of the whole enterprise without sufficient consideration that the engineering and science are then placed in the hands of corporate corner-cutters. Dilbert's boss is ultimately in charge.
Given that much TMI and Chernobyl occurred largely because of human error and that much of the engineering and science since have gone into developing systems that have fail safes that reduce, or where possible, eliminate the ability of human error being able to lead to a meltdown; then yes, I do have some confidence. But I have also already acknowledged the fallibility of human beings and that, basically, "shit happens".

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
So I think it's just a matter of time before we have the equivalent of Chernobyl in the US.
However, given how few people died in Chernobyl and how the environment around Chernobyl is already recovering in remarkable ways (impossible according to some), and given that the fact that over a dozen natural reactors have been discovered in recent years that ran off and on for several hundred thousand years in less than ideal environmental conditions with respect to groundwater and environmental contamination and that the environment appears not the worse for it, I'd say that while I'm concerned that something might occur, I'm not all that freaked out about the consequences compared to what we're doing in many other areas instead, that, IMO, have a far more significant consequences.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2007, 04:36 PM   #89
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Good old Market Control

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
I do have some confidence... But I have also already acknowledged the fallibility of human beings and that, basically, "shit happens".
But "radioactive shit" we can do without. When we know it's likely to happen, why set it up?

How much of the US are we prepared to cordon of for...how many years? Is the area around Chernobyl habitable again? How long before it is?

We could afford the Kyoto Accords better than we can afford that.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 07:50 PM   #90
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Good old Market Control

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
...I'm not all that freaked out about the consequences compared to what we're doing in many other areas instead, that, IMO, have a far more significant consequences.
How do you feel about the current consequences in Fukushima, Tarik--and the outlook for the future?

Best.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 09:19 PM   #91
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
This violates my understanding of physics. ...IMO, today's global warming, if it is human caused, can be attributed to the modern environmental movement which has actively prevented the growth and use of nuclear power in favor of burning coal and natural gas, which have significant environmental cost including the atomization of more uranium into the atmosphere each year than any nuclear power plant has ever exposed the environment to.
I wonder if that's still true, considering what has been spewing out of Fukushima for the past several months....

Also, I don't think the environmental movement has really been "in favor" of burning coal and gas. Everyone knows those things aren't good, but it's sort of like, Do you prefer that your kids not play with matches or that they not play with welding torches?

As Fukushima shows, when it goes bad, it goes much worse than bad.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 09:49 PM   #92
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
* * wrote: View Post
First of all, Nuclear power plants are not as dangerous as you'd think...Nuclear bombs explode, Nuclear power plant simmer water, causing steam. Nuclear power plants create more energy for society, extremely lower amounts of waste per plant (compared to coal).
I think we'll have to recalibrate your scale, after Fukushima. I think the whole situation just reversed.

Quote:
* * wrote: View Post
In the USA right now, we currently have 101 Nuclear plants. they supply about 20% of our power. How many coal plants do we have? If we switched to nuclear power, we could spend less money on energy, have more, and, believe it or not, it would be better for the air and less maintenance.
Still think that?

Quote:
* * wrote: View Post
So far, there have only been 2 Nuclear power plants around the world that have malfunctioned (exploded). Think about 2, vs the thousands of plants that affect people and cause more pollution, extra waste and less efficiancy.
What a difference a day makes, huh? Now we have SIX (6) reactors blown off the charts and the radiation is growing at an incalculable rate.

Quote:
* * wrote: View Post
As you can see, Nuclear Plants output the least amount or so called harmful materials, while providing the most power.

(But, just in case of an explosion, these plants should probably be placed a certain mileage away from society)
Like, maybe...on the moon?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 10:14 PM   #93
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I think we'll have to recalibrate your scale, after Fukushima. I think the whole situation just reversed.
Still think that?
What a difference a day makes, huh? Now we have SIX (6) reactors blown off the charts and the radiation is growing at an incalculable rate.
Like, maybe...on the moon?
David
Make a percentage of risk that is a calculable choice then.
Now we have coal fired electrical plants spewing mercury into the water and Sulfur Dioxide into the air, poisoning the world.

Now add in all the people who want to go home at 5:00 and plug in their "green cars" as they walk in and turn on their air conditioners and think they are saving the planet... as the coal fired plants serve them electricity.
We have Windmills that are killing the raptor population (including about a hundred bald eagles a year in the US alone).
What the hell kind of plans are these? Everything is a trade off.
It may sound great on the tee vee, but it's no plan. We don't have a plan, we haven't through effective solutions yet. We have air craft carriers and Subs running on Nuclear power for 30 years. We can do it right, if we tried.
No real argument from me either way, Dave. I'm hopeful someone comes up with more effective solutions.
All the best
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-25-2011 at 10:21 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 10:26 PM   #94
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
I'm not so sure it's 'uninhabitable', personally, but let's say it is. How does the Chernobyl make a relevant example when it violated known safe designs and known safety procedures of the time, which were lower than today's standards?
Hmmmmm........looks like "today's standards" weren't very high after all, were they? A nuclear plant on an earthquake fault line, and within the known elevation of tsunami destruction....

That's some pretty pathetic standards, don't you think?

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
The relevance to me is only that if you do something stupid, you can expect disastrous results.
How about if you do several stupid things and propel them through several decades of corporate lies....

Uh, oh! Here comes the the plutonium!

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
I'll certainly agree with you that if you don't build a nuclear power plant at all, you won't even have the possibility of such a disaster, but what alternative do you offer?
My alternative? Maybe a world without plutonium exposure????

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
I like solar energy, but it isn't economically feasible on the scale required.
Two points: the Fukushima disaster dwarfs the economies you rely on; and I think you've confused "required" with "sold". Humanity has to recognize that too much of a good thing is not good anymore.

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
Geothermal is cool (hot?), but why is it ok to use nuclear energy when the planet provides it, but not when humans do? And it only works in a few locations.
Geothermal is solar--not nuclear. Of course, it's "nuclear" at the sun, but that's a whole different meaning than refinement of radioactive fuels on earth. Geothermal is, essentially, solar.

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
I would have no problem living near a plant, but there's so much uninhabited land in the US that this is hardly worth being entered into the argument one way or the other.
First, that's a luxury that Japan does not have; second, it's not a luxury that the US has, either; third, even from a plant about 10,000 miles away, we're getting radiation in the US. The meaning? There's no place big enough to put a nuke plant to make it safe.

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
I do agree, that another incident is inevitable. However, in 60+ years, the only incident of significance has occurred when people deliberately ignored known safety designs and protocols. And that incident has caused less damage and deaths than a lot of other natural and human caused disasters that I can think of that we are happy to allow and even defend in our lives.
Well, you've been proven right at least that another "incident" was inevitable. Will you also agree that yet another incident is also inevitable? It is. As long as we have nuclear plants, there will be more accidents. And when we know that, can we really call these "accidents"?

No. It's all negligent homicide.

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
This has been seriously considered, especially since 9/11. So let's assume that they get through all the background checks required to work at the controls of nuclear plant. I mean, anything is possible, right?

Let's also consider that the Three Mile Island incident was caused largely by human errors and that automatic safety equipment that they cannot disable is largely what prevented a disaster.

Let's also consider that lessons learned from that incident and other studies and incidents over time have caused numerous design changes and changes to safety procedures.
First, Terrorists don't have to get a job in a nuclear plant. The could just drive right up to most American plants and shoot their way in.

Second, the main human error is simply to build a nuclear plant to begin with. And automatic safety equipment did not help in Fukushima. Besides, now, they think that the earthquake itself fractured the reactor containment vessels--not the "hydrogen explosions". So, already, your arguments are falling down.

Third, the numerous "design changes" and "changes to safety procedures" left us with a nuclear plant on a fault line within reach of tsunamis....and Fukushima is not the only plant built this way. And all these "upgrades" for safety didn't stop them from putting spent fuel rods on the roof of the vulnerable reactor buildings....

Really, if people understood just how flimsy our nuclear safeguards are....all nuclear plants would be shut down tomorrow.

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
Go read some of the supplied references above about how a nuclear plant functions and the different kinds of accidents that can occur and what some of the safeguards there are and then you tell me, how much damage could they really do?
Why don't you tell me? Somehow I doubt that your supplied references mentioned any of the factors that destroyed four reactors at Fukushima. Did they?

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
Honestly, it sounds to me like an argument made based on fear rather than knowledge and an analysis of real risk factors, at least based the facts you offer as a counter point so far.
Still so certain about that?

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
BTW, worse quakes several years ago in India didn't even cause enough vibration to shut down some of the high tech hardened plants there, much less cause a leak. They put the buildings on rollers.
It's just a matter of Time, Tarik. Nature will produce the necessary Perfect Storm.

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
I agree that one cannot account for all possible accidents, but I'd also say all current evidence suggests that the dangers are largely predictable and manageable, particularly compared to many of the alternatives.
Sadly, it's been the anti-nuclear people who have "predicted" the disasters and the nuclear plant operators' "management" has been mostly restriction of information.

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
Sarcasm feels good, but isn't so useful in making a real factual point.
I don't know about that. Sometimes, sarcasm is the only way to tell the real truth when corporate money machines whip up their own PR reality. Of course, sarcasm can't stand up to the billions of dollars the corporations pour into standing up their lies...but once a few of those lies are knocked down, people might at least understand the truth of the sarcasm.

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
It's not a conspiracy that prevents cheap and easily renewable electricity from succeeding. If the economies of scale are there, it will radically change the energy industry, and the industry knows it and is actively researching many more sources of cheap and easily renewable energy because they know that if it can be found, they will make that huge profit that Neil mentioned and seems to find deplorable.
Are you read to deal with the truth now, Tarik?

It is corporate conspiracy that props up nuclear power and spreads BS about the alternatives.

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
The pioneers that are using bio-diesel and other sources are admirable and far sighted and may be on the cutting edge of future energy sources, but today they pay far more than the average consumer for their energy and also refuse to acknowledge the environmental impacts of their sources which are negligible today largely because the scale is minuscule.
And that's because corporate interests have lobbied the lawmakers to favor nuclear and coal. It's not one or the other. Those two industries are both trying to assassinate the alternatives. It's taken a world-spanning nuclear tragedy to blow a hole in that crap. Maybe now we can get down to real economies instead of corporate cut-out "economies".

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 10:30 PM   #95
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
* * wrote: View Post
I'm not sure about what everyone here believes about global warming, but if you'll notice, nuclear plants make the least amount of emmisons, and waste, overall.
I think Fukushima has melted your argument down and it's now burning it's way toward China....

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 10:40 PM   #96
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
David, now I know that you must be arguing from a position of ignorance about how a nuclear power plant functions.
No. I think I have the basics pretty well within my grasp.

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
Do you realize that a nuclear explosion cannot result from the materials used in a nuclear power plant?
As I've said so many times, I know that a nuclear plant won't go off like a nuclear bomb, but they can "explode". And that's quite bad enough.

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
A meltdown would be quite a disaster, but unless there was a containment breach, which is extremely unlikely, even if a plant was hit by airplanes similar to what hit the towers on 9/11, it would almost entirely mostly be an economic disaster for the company who owns the plant.
Extremely unlikely? It appears that we've had four (4) containment breaches since you wrote that. So which of us misapprehended the facts? And do you really think that TEPCO has been the worst victim of this disaster?

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
Even then, the scope of the disaster would be nothing remotely like a nuclear device set off in a populated region, which I personally think is the far more likely danger we face and need to address.
Well, sure, the people of Fukushima were not incinerated, but their homes are now gone, for all intents and purposes, and within weeks you will see a much larger "forbidden zone" in Japan...so it seems that this kind of disaster was and remains "far more likely" than a nuclear bomb incident. Don't you think?

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
Your 'fact' that the waste cannot be safely handled is based on what? The accidents that have occurred?
No, it's based on how they actually handle nuclear waste. And I said that before I knew they were storing spent fuel rods on top of reactor buildings.

But now it turns out that the exposed spent fuel danger was actually dwarfed by how they were handling the "live" stuff.

Still, I say it cannot be handled safely for the full span of centuries it will take to render the waste truly "harmless".

Best.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2011, 05:33 PM   #97
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 538
United_States
Offline
Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Hi David,

Quite a rant there. I do understand where you are coming from, why you think that your position is vindicated, and why you care so much. I care as well. However, I have to say that from my point of view, your response is clearly rooted in fear [of radiation]. For me, what is happening at Fukushima merely reinforces and validates my prior research and point of view, notwithstanding that this incident is a tragedy.

Let me explain.

To date, how many people have died as a direct consequence of the Fukushima meltdowns? None. That would, to be clear, be the number zero (0). Even if some die, this matches the risk estimates by the RSS that there will be no detectable deaths (ie: acute radiation poisoning, an incredibly rare disease) in 98 our of 100 meltdowns. (ref: http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~blc/book/chapter6.html). It's rare enough that it has not happened in 45+ years in the US.

20,000+ dead or missing due to the quake and tsunami, but not a single person killed by acute radiation sickness from Fukushima, not even the so called 'doomed' heroic workers that the media said were going to die in weeks or months, but now don't discuss at all.

Here is a report of the radiation exposure of those 'doomed' workers: "by 13 July, of the approximately 6700 personnel tested so far, 88 personnel have received between 100 and 150 mSv, 14 have received between 150 and 200 mSv, 3 have received between 200 and 250 mSv, and 6 have received above 250 mSv" (ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiati...lear_disaster).

To understand what this means actually requires some reading and research, which I will provide, but I will summarize here. The lowest dose that can be clearly linked to increased cancer risk is 100mSv. This means that, so far, 111 people currently have an increased cancer risk (not a death sentence).

What is that risk, BTW? The average risk (it does vary by region) for getting cancer is approximately 20%; the resultant increase in risk from the meltdowns in about one half a percent (0.5%). BTW, only about 1 in 140 fatal cancers are estimated to be caused by radiation, and the primary source of that radiation is generally our friend, the sun. "One blistering sunburn in childhood or adolescence more than doubles a person's chances of developing melanoma later in life. A person's risk for melanoma also doubles if he or she has had five or more sunburns at any age." (ref. http://www.skincancer.org/facts-abou...n-cancer.html).

Incidentally, this exposure level for the Fukushima workers is about the same as residents of Ramsar, Iran (and other similar places in the world) who frequent the radioactive hot springs there and are exposed to as much as 260mSv in a year. Interestingly, the cancer rates there are about 35% below average, which merely demonstrates clearly that radiation is statistically not a primary cause for cancers, in general.

Let's address the land. Land declared contaminated by nuclear incidents is based upon the following standard: "This level corresponds roughly to doubling or tripling the average lifetime dose that would be received from natural radiation and medical X-rays, or 2 to 5 times as much extra radiation as would be received by the average American from moving to Colorado. It is still 4 to 10 times less than the natural radiation received by people living in some areas of India and Brazil. Studies of these people have given no evidence of health problems from their radiation exposure." What is also not talked about is that even in the worst cases, 90% of this land can be cleaned using fire hoses and by plowing. So standards are so incredibly cautious, they are almost absurd. As disastrous as Chernobyl was, had Chernobyl had a containment chamber, people would still be living there and we may have never heard of the incident.

What it all boils down to is how does our use of technology increase risk and shorten (or lengthen) our lifespan. NRC's well researched numbers demonstrate a loss of life expectancy (average across the entire population) of 0.04 days if all of our electricity was generated by nuclear power. Even using the UCS (Union of Concerned Scientists, nuclear opposition group) different numbers, we can arrive at a loss of life expectancy of 1.5 days. This just edges out the dangers of eating a tablespoon of peanut butter (which contains a toxin that causes liver cancer) each day and is still orders of magnitude less dangerous than bycicles, automobiles, and coal power, all of which are considered worth the cost to our lives because of the ways that they improve our lives. BTW, UCS's numbers predict that we would have had 5-6 meltdowns in the US alone by now, and we haven't had one. This may be why UCS has transformed over the last 20+ years from a nuclear opposition group to an industry watchdog group.. because they too realize that the science didn't bear out their original positions.

Incidentally, living near a coal fired plant results in a significantly higher exposure to radiation than living near a nuclear plan. Radiation from coal burning, which concentrates uranium and thorium and ejects some into the atmosphere and the slurry heaps is not regulated. In addition to the air pollution, coal is vastly more dangerous. When comparing lives lost, or more accurately, life expectancy lost (in days), "for nuclear accidents to be as dangerous as coal burning, we would have to experience a meltdown every 5 days." (ref: http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~blc/book/chapter6.html).

Finally, to address a few more of your comments/questions.

1. Fukushima was NOT a modern design. It was a 40+ year old design that should have been retired a couple of years ago and replaced by the more modern designs I previously mentioned.

2. Human incompetence notwithstanding, it took the largest earthquake in Japanese history (one of the largest ever measured) to cause the meltdowns, not human errors.

3. The technology and ability to handle the waste safely exists, but there is no political will to do the right thing. Nuclear plants are forced to store fuel on the grounds because unanticipated politics have stopped the planned disposal processes and parked fuel waste on site. Politics that have created the ticking time bomb, instead of solving it.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Geothermal is solar--not nuclear. Of course, it's "nuclear" at the sun, but that's a whole different meaning than refinement of radioactive fuels on earth. Geothermal is, essentially, solar.
Sorry, David, but geothermal energy is NOT solar energy, it is largely nuclear. It results from energy stored from the formation of the planet, natural radioactive decay, and volcanic activity, not from absorbing solar radiation.

I offer the following links for you all to do your own reading and research.

http://www.amazon.com/Nuclear-Energy.../dp/0306435675
(Written by an academic, not a corporate scientist. You can read this online at: http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~blc/book/index.html - an excellent book that tries to reduce complex science into laymens terms and also examines the data from opponents to nuclear power of the day).

If you're busy, the really good chapters are the ones on How dangerous is Radiation? (chapter 5) and Understanding Risk (Chapter 8) are excellent, but the whole book is worth a good read.

Days of Lost Life Expectancy: http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~blc/book/lostlife.gif

If you like to get more technical, you can review the following stuff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_radiation

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-nuclear-waste

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/...t/colmain.html

http://skepticalswedishscientists.fi...dose-chart.png

http://lowdose.energy.gov/images/ig_...es-sievert.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Fukushima7.png

http://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/radiati...re-cancer.html

http://www.ucsusa.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiati...clear_disaster

There are tons more that are easy to find.

Best,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2011, 06:08 PM   #98
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,282
Offline
Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

This post is in no way intended to make frivolous the serious nature of the situation in Japan but directed at David Orange's rant.

It is like most of his political posts, wrought with lack of understanding and lots of exaggeration. His posts reminds me of this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AOspwNxjtE

dps
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2011, 06:48 PM   #99
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 538
United_States
Offline
Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Sorry about the grammatical and spelling errors, my post was off the cuff and it's now past the deadline for editing it. Re-reading it shows a number of such errors, but fortunately, none that render any of the data inaccurate. Mea culpa.

Best,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 01:02 AM   #100
Tenyu
Dojo: Aikibodo
Location: Arcata CA
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 150
United_States
Offline
Re: Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl Dead Zone

Introducing <<< Pluto-kun! >>>

I recommend watching the preceding expert testimonies.

For much needed comic relief - Takashi Uesugi
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dead Zone aikidoc General 7 02-23-2003 07:24 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:58 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate