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Old 08-23-2011, 11:34 PM   #1
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
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inside the spiral vs. outside the spiral

My dojo uses the terms omote to describe nage moving in front of uke, ura to describe nage moving behind uke, and ura tenkan to describe nage moving behind uke in an arc; also uchi and soto to describe nage going inside or outside.

Recently a guest came to the dojo and had some other useful terms, describing uke either in the center of motion with nage moving around him, or uke moving around nage. I was unfamiliar with the terms used, and don't remember them; anyone here recognize the description well enough to give me the terms?

Last edited by Lorien Lowe : 08-23-2011 at 11:48 PM.
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Old 08-24-2011, 02:09 AM   #2
ryback
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Re: inside the spiral vs. outside the spiral

I'm not sure i got the discription right, but i can tell you that another word for omote is irimi (entering motion). Tenkan, as far as i know means a turning movement, where the turning of hips is followed by moving the front leg, back. Tenkan-ho is turning your hips without moving the legs...
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Old 08-24-2011, 02:53 AM   #3
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: inside the spiral vs. outside the spiral

Sounds like complete tai sabaki to me.

Regards G.
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Old 08-24-2011, 04:10 AM   #4
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
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Re: inside the spiral vs. outside the spiral

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Sounds like complete tai sabaki to me.

Regards G.
I would agree with that .

Henry Ellis
Aikido Ellis Video Channel
http://aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net/
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Old 08-25-2011, 02:44 AM   #5
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: inside the spiral vs. outside the spiral

Just make you're own terms up (everyone else does) if you can't remember but make sure to remember the principle. Then, collect yourself a few more principles.

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Old 08-28-2011, 09:48 PM   #6
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
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Re: inside the spiral vs. outside the spiral

Well, I speak no Japanese so can't make up any authentic-sounding terms. 'Inside the spiral' and 'outside the spiral' work well enough en InglÚs.
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:19 AM   #7
nekobaka
Dojo: Washinkai (Kizu)
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Re: inside the spiral vs. outside the spiral

We use the term uchi (inside) tenkan and soto (outside) tenkan. For example the tenkan we do at the beginning of practice is soto tenkan. The movement we do when we do (standard) yokomen techniques is uchi tenkan. Our dojo does soto tenkan yokomen too. You can see my sensei doing it in this youtube video
2:52
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1jkj...feature=relmfu

I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about
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Old 09-08-2011, 04:27 AM   #8
David Yap
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Re: inside the spiral vs. outside the spiral

Quote:
Ani Forbes wrote: View Post
We use the term uchi (inside) tenkan and soto (outside) tenkan. For example the tenkan we do at the beginning of practice is soto tenkan. The movement we do when we do (standard) yokomen techniques is uchi tenkan. Our dojo does soto tenkan yokomen too. You can see my sensei doing it in this youtube video
2:52
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1jkj...feature=relmfu

I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about
Graphically..
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Old 09-08-2011, 10:30 PM   #9
nekobaka
Dojo: Washinkai (Kizu)
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Re: inside the spiral vs. outside the spiral

cool, it's what we do. I don't know many dojos that practice that. Do you know who teaches that? My sensei, Kazuo Nomura, was a student of Tanaka Bansen sensei.
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Old 09-09-2011, 11:16 PM   #10
David Yap
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Re: inside the spiral vs. outside the spiral

Quote:
Ani Forbes wrote: View Post
cool, it's what we do. I don't know many dojos that practice that. Do you know who teaches that? My sensei, Kazuo Nomura, was a student of Tanaka Bansen sensei.
Ani,

Every aikikai style practises that, most just call the taisabaki "tenkan". I guess your teacher differentiates the turns/pivots as "Uchi tenkan" or "Soto Tenkan".

Incidentally, one of your dojo mates, Tadauchi-san, is training with us in Malaysia.

Regards

David Y
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Old 09-10-2011, 05:33 PM   #11
nekobaka
Dojo: Washinkai (Kizu)
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Re: inside the spiral vs. outside the spiral

So I'm referring to doing soto tenkan in yokomen and shomen attacks. I have never done that in any of the other dojos I've been to. Is that what you mean, or do you mean soto tenkan in katate dori techniques? Yokomen soto tenkan is really difficult to do well. When people from other dojos come to Nomura Shihan's seminars they get really confused.

I don't know Tadauchi san personally. Nomura sensei has 5 or 6 dojos he teaches at. Please let him know Nomura sensei has a 3rd DVD out.
take care,
Ani

Last edited by nekobaka : 09-10-2011 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:12 PM   #12
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: inside the spiral vs. outside the spiral

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
My dojo uses the terms omote to describe nage moving in front of uke, ura to describe nage moving behind uke, and ura tenkan to describe nage moving behind uke in an arc; also uchi and soto to describe nage going inside or outside.

Recently a guest came to the dojo and had some other useful terms, describing uke either in the center of motion with nage moving around him, or uke moving around nage. I was unfamiliar with the terms used, and don't remember them; anyone here recognize the description well enough to give me the terms?
Hi Lorien,
This may just be a descriptive issue... But as I understand it, there's is almost no time when uke is at the center and nage moves around him (unless connection was broken and nage needs to reposition).

We use the terms irimi and tenkan generally. A basic principle is that there is no tenkan without irimi. So, for me, there is almost never a time when uke is at the center and I am not. There are times when I appear to be very still, with minimal visible movement and uke is moving around me. There are times when I am moving a lot and uke is moving around me. I try to avoid any technique in which the uke is standing still and I am doing most of the moving since, in a real encounter, they won't really sit there waiting for me to get around to doing my technique. You will often see techniques done this way in Aikido because the partners have been taught not to counter. But I won't do them.

To my way of thinking, omote and ura often refer to something which equates to irimi and tenkan but they are not identical. Omote and ura are really positional descriptors and irimi and tenkan are descriptors of movement.

That's just my take on it.
- George

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 09-25-2011, 07:17 PM   #13
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: inside the spiral vs. outside the spiral

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Hi Lorien,
This may just be a descriptive issue... But as I understand it, there's is almost no time when uke is at the center and nage moves around him (unless connection was broken and nage needs to reposition).

We use the terms irimi and tenkan generally. A basic principle is that there is no tenkan without irimi. So, for me, there is almost never a time when uke is at the center and I am not. There are times when I appear to be very still, with minimal visible movement and uke is moving around me. There are times when I am moving a lot and uke is moving around me. I try to avoid any technique in which the uke is standing still and I am doing most of the moving since, in a real encounter, they won't really sit there waiting for me to get around to doing my technique. You will often see techniques done this way in Aikido because the partners have been taught not to counter. But I won't do them.

To my way of thinking, omote and ura often refer to something which equates to irimi and tenkan but they are not identical. Omote and ura are really positional descriptors and irimi and tenkan are descriptors of movement.

That's just my take on it.
- George
Hi George. Long time no see.

I was interested in your view there. I agree that there is no tenkan without irimi. However earlier in the thread I stated it sounded like tai-sabake to me. Allow me to explain.

Firstly, an attack, let's say a tsuki straight through done with the right hand. If the nage has left foot foreward then it is natural to irimi/tenkan off of that left foot.

If on the other hand nage has right foot foreward then it is more natural to tai sabake in order to enter.

O.K. So far so good.

Now if you view the uke as someone with a circular space around them, think geometry, then as they attack they are merely moving that circle foreward into your circle.

O.K. hope your still with me. Now note they they are the centre of that moving circle. The fact that they are thrusting straight through may represent the triangle but that is still within that circle.

Now irimi would be you entering in on the line of that same triangle yes?

Now back to tai-sabake which as I describe it is also entering but in an arc. Why? is the question.

I got my answer to that question through the application of one of Toheis principles of Aikido which is take your partners place. So please bear with me.

Let's return to the circle moving foreward and the uke being centre of that circle. If you tai sabake into that centre whilst remaining connected and take the ukes place then you have now joined and taken over his circle and are now leading his ki or energy back around his own circle of which you are now the centre.

Now all you have to do is replace the same concept of the circle with the spiral.

So I think the guy who visited Loriens dojo was talking from this perspective ie: The attacker being centre of their circle or spiral and then through tai-sabake find themselves flying around nage now the perimeter of their circle or spiral.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-25-2011, 10:59 PM   #14
hughrbeyer
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Re: inside the spiral vs. outside the spiral

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Omote and ura are really positional descriptors and irimi and tenkan are descriptors of movement.
Sensei, you just took a very mysterious and esoteric distinction and made it thunderingly plain and obvious.

Is that allowed?
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Old 09-25-2011, 11:14 PM   #15
kewms
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Re: inside the spiral vs. outside the spiral

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Sensei, you just took a very mysterious and esoteric distinction and made it thunderingly plain and obvious.

Is that allowed?
We (his students) hope so. He does it all the time, and we'd be very sad if someone made him stop.

Katherine
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:46 AM   #16
worrier
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Re: inside the spiral vs. outside the spiral

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Sensei, you just took a very mysterious and esoteric distinction and made it thunderingly plain and obvious.

Is that allowed?
Best way to learn, in my opinion.
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