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Old 08-17-2011, 11:54 AM   #26
Chris Li
 
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

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Chris Covington wrote: View Post
It looks like he has a few cute girls in his dojo. Why are there always cute girls in dojos like this or ninja dojos and the only people that want to train with me are cops, military and security? I must be doing something wrong!
You see, he does have the secret! Who knows, it might be worth it...

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-18-2011, 03:59 AM   #27
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Isn't it interesting how you -only- see this in arts that start with cooperation. Then the gradual grooming process begins, leading students into a belief and eventual "sensitivity" to what they are feeling that always.......always...leads to overreacting.
Dan,
Over all, I am in agreement. But I do not think that sensitivity and reactivity necessarily go together. If training is done properly, it should develop extreme sensitivity with no reactivity.

Most of the styles of martial arts in which sensitivity plays little or no part are sports. Physical conditioning and ability to handle punishment are often crucial components. But in combat, especially when we are talking about weapons, one small mistake is the end. It isn't about how much punishment one can take or how tough you are. You take a blade in the eye or the heart and the fight is over. You get a major artery cut, your opponent simply steps back and watches you die.

Arts in which one strike or one cut can easily be the end of the fight tend to have a lot of emphasis on sensitivity. The ability to read what the opponent's movement will be before he does it is something every style tries to develop.

I would agree that in Aikido in particular, folks have not done a good job with this. Many if not most Aikido folks associate sensitivity and reactivity. They have been taught, as you say, to be reactive. But I do not think that is desirable or necessary. I think the Systema folks are a great example of training that develops a very high degree of sensitivity but takes the element of reactivity close to zero. I think that's what we should be shooting for in our Aikido training.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 08-18-2011, 07:30 AM   #28
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

I am always skeptical. If it is "true" then do it to me, then I am a believer.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 08-19-2011, 10:03 AM   #29
DH
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Dan,
Over all, I am in agreement. But I do not think that sensitivity and reactivity necessarily go together. If training is done properly, it should develop extreme sensitivity with no reactivity.

Most of the styles of martial arts in which sensitivity plays little or no part are sports. Physical conditioning and ability to handle punishment are often crucial components. But in combat, especially when we are talking about weapons, one small mistake is the end. It isn't about how much punishment one can take or how tough you are. You take a blade in the eye or the heart and the fight is over. You get a major artery cut, your opponent simply steps back and watches you die.

Arts in which one strike or one cut can easily be the end of the fight tend to have a lot of emphasis on sensitivity. The ability to read what the opponent's movement will be before he does it is something every style tries to develop.

I would agree that in Aikido in particular, folks have not done a good job with this. Many if not most Aikido folks associate sensitivity and reactivity. They have been taught, as you say, to be reactive. But I do not think that is desirable or necessary. I think the Systema folks are a great example of training that develops a very high degree of sensitivity but takes the element of reactivity close to zero. I think that's what we should be shooting for in our Aikido training.
I would agree with all of the above except for the notion that the two (sport, taking punishment, and reading movement with weapons or without) are mutually exclusive.
You can be sensitive and get played, by your reactions to movement as simple as a feint as complex as a set up
You can be sensitive with no real real power delivery
You can train sensitivity and power and connection and take people who train sensitivity for an eye opening ride.

I think that overall we agree, I just don't think the ways to train power and ghosty soft sensitivity at the same time are all the equal in producing their stated goals. In fact, I think there are short comings in a lot methods that make certain claims they cannot deliver on. Example: some military methods are great for the military, but are really not very good for one-on-one with a good fighter. and vice versa. Interestingly enough the good methods seem to leave adepts with very healthy bodies and outlooks on life.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 08-19-2011, 11:40 AM   #30
DH
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

Had to rush out and finish later from a different location.

In regards to different methods and sensitivity:
As previously stated you have different methods that do not all lead to the same types of sensitivity or even the same levels within similar types. Situational awareness and sensitivity and/ or tactile awareness, sensitivity, or body skills that produce a sensitivity in movement are not the same nor should they be.
A very good situational awareness or sensitivity can yield many different response levels to the same stimulus. One does not equal the other. That's where goals are outlined and paradigms established. There needs to be a calculated, educated and informed evaluation between different modalities to both appreciate and assess value and worth, in any crossover from one to the other. I do not believe that I have seen a successful "one training fits all" model yet. Certainly not in Systema (which has many positive training methods) nor in any police or MMA fight setting or in traditional arts (internal or otherwise).either. Cooperation is key to initiating almost any training. Even with fighting you have to drill responses to make them automatic. What is telling for me in any endeavor is how they participants end up moving. When you see the attacks getting narrowed to the point that any given systems attackers start to look like the systems method of attacking... it's all down hill from there. in examples like the OP, seeing an attacker's body dynamic shift from attacking to instantly receiving and being receptive gains nothing. I'ts like standing there and receiving a punch versus moving and having an attacking mind/ body dynamic. The body quality is dramatically different even in an untrained person. It is even more profound in a trained body.

Murphy's law prevails, and what ever we think we know, it must be tested in strange venues where the opponent has a vest interest in seing our efforts undone, and the skills and fortitude to follow through. Anyway, Cops, Military, fighters and TMA; while they mare share common modalities, do not have the same goals for awareness and sensitivity, nor methods to achieve them.

All the best
Dan
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Old 08-19-2011, 12:49 PM   #31
ryback
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

Well, i think that the videos speak for themselves.Obviously a community of dellusional followers, trying to make their... "messiah" look good and magical on camera.Nothing to do with any martial art in my opinion, let alone with aiki!
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Old 08-19-2011, 01:16 PM   #32
Allen Beebe
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

Hi Dan,

I'm guessing George will be a little late in response since today, Saturday and Sunday he is hosting three guest teachers for a seminar at his place so he'll be busy.

Cheers!,
Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 08-22-2011, 08:03 AM   #33
DH
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

Some thoughts from a recent discussion. I have avoided some VERY popular aikido teachers who, if you removed them from the video, you would see the uke flopping all over from throwing himself. While those are obvious, these are more interesting in that they express an educated and mutual response.

More of the same ideas I have been discussing in arts outside of Japan;
Conditioned response from real skill to imagined skill
A good example of taking the ridiculous to the sublime in conditioned response. How to convince the attacker to move his own body.
1. Their mind and body learn to map a response from taking ukemi to real force.
2. Learn how it feels to bounce away.
3. Then they expect to bounce away
4. Then they create the conditions... to... bounce away on their own from mere expectation or suggestion of force.
And saddest of all
5.They will swear to God that all of this BS is real. Famous words from so many of these groups.
"X sensei is amazing you can feel his presense in the room."
No Johnny, he has trained you to feel his presense in the room.
Note that nowhere is the guy actually trying to change or neutralize the force.

"Add a knife and everyone imagines more stress....."
People who know how to use a knife do not move anything like these "attackers" with a knife in their hand. It is interesting to note here thhat the attacker...moves...like a systema person with a knife, not like a trained knife fighter. It is much the same in Aikido. When Aikido move with a knife, they move like aikido people with a knife in their hand. In both cases it is clear that their bodies shut off after the first move. There is no body dynamic and stability or counter to be seen.
Conditioned knife movement and Low percentage and probability
Nonexistent percentage

This distinctly modern idea of sensitivity training is not beneficial in the long run. The older Asian model called for the interaction and cancellation of energy (force) in an educated exchange. Both parties were being trained and versed in how to be solid and substantial in themselves and then how to resolve the meeting of force on force through an internal-to-external process of change. Someone taking ukemi was not part of the process. Predictably other than teaching people to continually receive, there is little to no mention of the changes that take place in the body when it is proactive in the exchange and then how to control that.

If we search the available video and seminars, we find that "sensitivity training" to cancel the teachers efforts and to control them or to routinely go outside and test with experienced and capable people is not commonly in the modern narrative, if it exists at all.
Instead, we see the result of this type of cooperative training to actually reduce the skill level of the attacks offered, with the ever worsening attack threat level only serving to lessen the skill of the defender, which then supports more lack luster attacks. One might say that once one allows themselves to remain immersed in this mutually supporting practice, that the training conditions both parties to a presumed response.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-22-2011 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 08-22-2011, 12:33 PM   #34
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Some thoughts from a recent discussion. I have avoided some VERY popular aikido teachers who, if you removed them from the video, you would see the uke flopping all over from throwing himself. While those are obvious, these are more interesting in that they express an educated and mutual response.

More of the same ideas I have been discussing in arts outside of Japan;
Conditioned response from real skill to imagined skill
A good example of taking the ridiculous to the sublime in conditioned response. How to convince the attacker to move his own body.
1. Their mind and body learn to map a response from taking ukemi to real force.
2. Learn how it feels to bounce away.
3. Then they expect to bounce away
4. Then they create the conditions... to... bounce away on their own from mere expectation or suggestion of force.
And saddest of all
5.They will swear to God that all of this BS is real. Famous words from so many of these groups.
"X sensei is amazing you can feel his presense in the room."
No Johnny, he has trained you to feel his presense in the room.
Note that nowhere is the guy actually trying to change or neutralize the force.

"Add a knife and everyone imagines more stress....."
People who know how to use a knife do not move anything like these "attackers" with a knife in their hand. It is interesting to note here thhat the attacker...moves...like a systema person with a knife, not like a trained knife fighter. It is much the same in Aikido. When Aikido move with a knife, they move like aikido people with a knife in their hand. In both cases it is clear that their bodies shut off after the first move. There is no body dynamic and stability or counter to be seen.
Conditioned knife movement and Low percentage and probability
Nonexistent percentage

This distinctly modern idea of sensitivity training is not beneficial in the long run. The older Asian model called for the interaction and cancellation of energy (force) in an educated exchange. Both parties were being trained and versed in how to be solid and substantial in themselves and then how to resolve the meeting of force on force through an internal-to-external process of change. Someone taking ukemi was not part of the process. Predictably other than teaching people to continually receive, there is little to no mention of the changes that take place in the body when it is proactive in the exchange and then how to control that.

If we search the available video and seminars, we find that "sensitivity training" to cancel the teachers efforts and to control them or to routinely go outside and test with experienced and capable people is not commonly in the modern narrative, if it exists at all.
Instead, we see the result of this type of cooperative training to actually reduce the skill level of the attacks offered, with the ever worsening attack threat level only serving to lessen the skill of the defender, which then supports more lack luster attacks. One might say that once one allows themselves to remain immersed in this mutually supporting practice, that the training conditions both parties to a presumed response.
Dan
Dan, this a great post. The implications of what you wrote here basically turns the modern ukemi model found in aikido on its head. I think the reason why this occurs is that the aikido dojo is a place whose purpose is to facilitate propery technique, which usually means the correct "form" of the technique. So people are attacking with "empty" arms, attacking in an unbalanced way, purposely giving bleeding away power so that the person can "feel" what it is like to deliver a good technique. The only problem with that is that an attacker may not give away his power, and will not purposely unbalance himself to attack--this sets up the Aikido student for a lot of trouble in a real confrontation. Generations before us, people have engaged in this kind of practise, to the detriment of the art. Most aikido teachers are simply not ready for a dynamic interplay of energies. I remember Rob telling me that he went to a Tomiki dojo, the guys weren't able to move him and they complained that he wasn't a good "uke" (to which he thought, "I was being a good uke! They just weren't good nages"--or someting to that effect)

And this brings up an interesting question about the core of what aikido is. If an aikido dojo is merely a technique factory, then the the use of the ukemi model as we know it is understandable, but appallingly insufficient for real life encounters. However, if the practise of aikido is something deeper, something that has to do with dynamic interplay of energies, then the ukemi model in aikido must be completely refurbished. In that sense, perhaps as well the "I do this, and you do this to me" model of application must be changed as well. Things will start to look very different if people are trained to take in force (not muscular), apply force, and neutralize those forces. Co-operative training is useful, insofar as the teacher himself knows about bodyskill/aiki training and the sensations that go along with such training, and has a clear pedagogical method that allows him to articulate those sensations in, say, taking, applying, and neutralizing forces in a paired exercise. You then gradually make it less co-operative--I'd say, non-cooperative, bodyskill-focussed aikido would look like judo on the surface.

You can write a book about this! A book outlining the failure of the modern ukemi model, the concentration on aiki training in aikido and how this has to change aikido practise as we know it, and perhaps something pedagogical paradigm charting out the different phases in bodyskill/aiki training which includes co-operative training. What do you think, Dan?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 08-22-2011, 01:08 PM   #35
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Dan, this a great post. The implications of what you wrote here basically turns the modern ukemi model found in aikido on its head. I think the reason why this occurs is that the aikido dojo is a place whose purpose is to facilitate propery technique, which usually means the correct "form" of the technique. So people are attacking with "empty" arms, attacking in an unbalanced way, purposely giving bleeding away power so that the person can "feel" what it is like to deliver a good technique. The only problem with that is that an attacker may not give away his power, and will not purposely unbalance himself to attack--this sets up the Aikido student for a lot of trouble in a real confrontation. Generations before us, people have engaged in this kind of practise, to the detriment of the art. Most aikido teachers are simply not ready for a dynamic interplay of energies. I remember Rob telling me that he went to a Tomiki dojo, the guys weren't able to move him and they complained that he wasn't a good "uke" (to which he thought, "I was being a good uke! They just weren't good nages"--or someting to that effect)

And this brings up an interesting question about the core of what aikido is. If an aikido dojo is merely a technique factory, then the the use of the ukemi model as we know it is understandable, but appallingly insufficient for real life encounters. However, if the practise of aikido is something deeper, something that has to do with dynamic interplay of energies, then the ukemi model in aikido must be completely refurbished. In that sense, perhaps as well the "I do this, and you do this to me" model of application must be changed as well. Things will start to look very different if people are trained to take in force (not muscular), apply force, and neutralize those forces. Co-operative training is useful, insofar as the teacher himself knows about bodyskill/aiki training and the sensations that go along with such training, and has a clear pedagogical method that allows him to articulate those sensations in, say, taking, applying, and neutralizing forces in a paired exercise. You then gradually make it less co-operative--I'd say, non-cooperative, bodyskill-focussed aikido would look like judo on the surface.

You can write a book about this! A book outlining the failure of the modern ukemi model, the concentration on aiki training in aikido and how this has to change aikido practise as we know it, and perhaps something pedagogical paradigm charting out the different phases in bodyskill/aiki training which includes co-operative training. What do you think, Dan?
It's still the same model used by Takeda to teach Ueshiba, Sagawa and a host of others who supposedly had "it". There's no evidence to support that in the course of practice that they would fight tooth and nail to avoid being thrown or go to great lengths to recover once their balance had been broken. It was still a cooperative practice to a large degree.

people always crack wise about the "not being a good uke" thing, but it's perfectly valid. Rather than saying "you're not being a good uke" I could just as easily say "you're being a shitty teacher" and it would fit just as well. Having a higher skill level than someone and using that skill level to shut them down doesn't mean much.

Basically what I"m getting at is that the "ukemi model" isn't the problem. The things that you and Dan talk about that are the problem aren't the model itself, but how people choose to operate within that model. Those things can be fixed rather easily and don't require "turning it on its head". In some places those things aren't a problem in the first place, but when you go further than that and start pushing it to be some sort of competition, then it's probably not even aikido anymore. Certainly not Ueshiba's aikido, with our without the body skills, and isn't that the holy grail we're all supposed to be after?
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Old 08-22-2011, 01:48 PM   #36
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
It's still the same model used by Takeda to teach Ueshiba, Sagawa and a host of others who supposedly had "it". There's no evidence to support that in the course of practice that they would fight tooth and nail to avoid being thrown or go to great lengths to recover once their balance had been broken. It was still a cooperative practice to a large degree.

people always crack wise about the "not being a good uke" thing, but it's perfectly valid. Rather than saying "you're not being a good uke" I could just as easily say "you're being a shitty teacher" and it would fit just as well. Having a higher skill level than someone and using that skill level to shut them down doesn't mean much.

Basically what I"m getting at is that the "ukemi model" isn't the problem. The things that you and Dan talk about that are the problem aren't the model itself, but how people choose to operate within that model. Those things can be fixed rather easily and don't require "turning it on its head". In some places those things aren't a problem in the first place, but when you go further than that and start pushing it to be some sort of competition, then it's probably not even aikido anymore. Certainly not Ueshiba's aikido, with our without the body skills, and isn't that the holy grail we're all supposed to be after?
Is there evidence for the opposite (that there was no co-operative practise), Jason? How do you know Takeda, Sagawa, or Ueshiba never engaged in non-co-operative freestyle wrestling in their own dojos (we all know they did that outside of their dojos)?

"Having a higher skill level than someone and using that skill level to shut them down doesn't mean much. "

First of all, take into context what I wrote. Rob basically went into the Tomiki dojo, and played with some of the senior students. Rob NEVER did Tomiki style, but was able to shut them down. And this was 4-5 years ago. I'd say that means a lot. It means somebody was less-educated about certain training methods and was deluded enough by the dojo ethos that he would say Rob was being a bad uke because he wouldn't purposely fall. I think it is pretty ridiculous for him to say that. But you say, it is understandable, how so?

First of all, what is the model you are talking about? I am talking about the model in Aikido where you do this, and I do that,and when you do this, I fall like this because this means I am a good uke. Is this the model that you are talking about? If so, how do you operate within that model and how do you fix it easily? What is the wrong way that people can operate themselves in this model, and how do you fix this? And who says it is about competition? This is about a rigorous study of applying, taking in, and neutralizing forces and efficient movement (if you are fighting at least). The deeper it gets, the more intricate it becomes, almost becoming an unseen chess game (I am not, however, at this level of play yet), but it is hardly an egotistic competitive thing. I doubt the lack of "competition"--I think this is a pretty loaded term, and Ueshiba used this term in the context of budo, the foundations of which are connected with militarism and ultranationalistic politics, but I won't get into that--necessitates the "good uke" training model whereby uke delivers weak attacks, and the nage applies techniques, to which the uke "gives" into and falls.

I think co-operative training is good, but good insofar as it is part of a set of phases.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 08-22-2011, 02:01 PM   #37
graham christian
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
It's still the same model used by Takeda to teach Ueshiba, Sagawa and a host of others who supposedly had "it". There's no evidence to support that in the course of practice that they would fight tooth and nail to avoid being thrown or go to great lengths to recover once their balance had been broken. It was still a cooperative practice to a large degree.

people always crack wise about the "not being a good uke" thing, but it's perfectly valid. Rather than saying "you're not being a good uke" I could just as easily say "you're being a shitty teacher" and it would fit just as well. Having a higher skill level than someone and using that skill level to shut them down doesn't mean much.

Basically what I"m getting at is that the "ukemi model" isn't the problem. The things that you and Dan talk about that are the problem aren't the model itself, but how people choose to operate within that model. Those things can be fixed rather easily and don't require "turning it on its head". In some places those things aren't a problem in the first place, but when you go further than that and start pushing it to be some sort of competition, then it's probably not even aikido anymore. Certainly not Ueshiba's aikido, with our without the body skills, and isn't that the holy grail we're all supposed to be after?
I agree.
The fact that people use the word 'model' shows me they are already off in another direction. There is no model to show. There is a purpose of ukemi, there is a reason why it is prevelent in Aikido, there is a reason when it is necessary in Aikido, there are more than one type of ukemi to serve different purposes, and may I also add there is being an uke as a totally different subject.

regards.G.
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Old 08-22-2011, 02:02 PM   #38
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

Wow, ignore.

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Old 08-22-2011, 02:52 PM   #39
chillzATL
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Is there evidence for the opposite (that there was no co-operative practise), Jason? How do you know Takeda, Sagawa, or Ueshiba never engaged in non-co-operative freestyle wrestling in their own dojos (we all know they did that outside of their dojos)?
There's just nothing to support that it was even a regular thing that was considered part of their art. If it happened with any sort of regularity it would have made the travels with some of the students. We do have vids of Ueshiba in his DR days (Asahi video) and what's on display looks no different than what you'd see in most Aikido dojo's today. While the students may not have been simply going through the motions, the ukemi models seems in full effect there.

Quote:
First of all, take into context what I wrote. Rob basically went into the Tomiki dojo, and played with some of the senior students. Rob NEVER did Tomiki style, but was able to shut them down. And this was 4-5 years ago. I'd say that means a lot. It means somebody was less-educated about certain training methods and was deluded enough by the dojo ethos that he would say Rob was being a bad uke because he wouldn't purposely fall. I think it is pretty ridiculous for him to say that. But you say, it is understandable, how so?
First, I wasn't saying anything bad about Rob specifically, I understand his point. You didn't say that it was because he wasn't taking a dive for htem. You said that "they couldn't move him". There's a huge difference there. I've only been at this a short time, but I find it rather easy to shut someone down if I choose too. It's just not all that surprising to me and hearing someone say "you're not being a good uke" because you're using something that you know, which they don't know, to keep them from moving you, just doesn't set off any alarms for me.

Quote:
First of all, what is the model you are talking about? I am talking about the model in Aikido where you do this, and I do that,and when you do this, I fall like this because this means I am a good uke. Is this the model that you are talking about? If so, how do you operate within that model and how do you fix it easily? What is the wrong way that people can operate themselves in this model, and how do you fix this?
Basically yes. I just don't see that behavior as being "the model". Hell, to be honest, that type of going through the motions is what I was brought up calling bad aikido. You fix it by conditioning people to give good, honest attacks. To feel for when their balance is being taken and when it's being given back. Feel for when there is a conneciton and when there is none. If your skill level is higher than theirs, you give them just enough so that they can push themselves just a little, but succeed and continue to improve. If they've done all of those things through the course of the kata/technique, you should fall as a result. There is none of this falling just to fall nonsense. IS or not, that alone makes aikido better, something that can be used. When you add in the IS training skills and imiproved focus and understanding, then I believe it can be a perfectly fine "way" for training those skills. Which is what I think Ueshiba wanted. What he did not want was all the going through the motions.

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And who says it is about competition? This is about a rigorous study of applying, taking in, and neutralizing forces and efficient movement (if you are fighting at least). The deeper it gets, the more intricate it becomes, almost becoming an unseen chess game (I am not, however, at this level of play yet), but it is hardly an egotistic competitive thing. I doubt the lack of "competition"--I think this is a pretty loaded term, and Ueshiba used this term in the context of budo, the foundations of which are connected with militarism and ultranationalistic politics, but I won't get into that--necessitates the "good uke" training model whereby uke delivers weak attacks, and the nage applies techniques, to which the uke "gives" into and falls.
Because when you put two people in front of each other and say "You, try your hardest to throw him" and "you, try your hardest to keep from being thrown", then it is going to become a competition. I see no problem with that on its own, but in the context of aikido as we know it, I'm not so sure. IMO Ueshiba condemned competition for safety reasons. You put people of varying skill levels together, some with real skills, some with a hint of them and some with none at all and tell them to work on these techniques, some of which can very easily cause injury, you're setting the stage for problems when you also tell them to resist at all costs. The first time a semi-noob goes to shihonage a full-noob and full-noob just doesn't know enough to know that he's in no position to keep resisisting, POP, shoulder/elbow = gone.

Sure you can separate classes by experience or something, but it just becomes a stream of workarounds to get around the fact that this wasn't meant to be a fighting system. A martial system, martial skills, budo, sure, but fighting? Nah, I don't buy it. IMO I think Ueshiba wanted a system to develop the body skills in a safe and fun way. Once you had them, if you wanted to go test yourself, go for it, but that's not what his art was about so I see no need to go full bore into changing the art into something it was never intended to be. Fixing it to make it what it was supposed to be though, I'm all for that.
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Old 08-22-2011, 03:37 PM   #40
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
A book outlining the failure of the modern ukemi model, the concentration on aiki training in aikido and how this has to change aikido practise as we know it, and perhaps something pedagogical paradigm charting out the different phases in bodyskill/aiki training which includes co-operative training.
I've been playing around with a book touching on some of that. It's in the hands of a few people, who are, hopefully, ripping it to shreds so that I can make it better.

Mark
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Old 08-22-2011, 03:51 PM   #41
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

Awesome, Mark!

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I've been playing around with a book touching on some of that. It's in the hands of a few people, who are, hopefully, ripping it to shreds so that I can make it better.

Mark

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Old 08-22-2011, 04:02 PM   #42
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

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Jason Casteel wrote:
It's still the same model used by Takeda to teach Ueshiba, Sagawa and a host of others who supposedly had "it". There's no evidence to support that in the course of practice that they would fight tooth and nail to avoid being thrown or go to great lengths to recover once their balance had been broken. It was still a cooperative practice to a large degree.
and

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There's just nothing to support that it was even a regular thing that was considered part of their art. If it happened with any sort of regularity it would have made the travels with some of the students. We do have vids of Ueshiba in his DR days (Asahi video) and what's on display looks no different than what you'd see in most Aikido dojo's today. While the students may not have been simply going through the motions, the ukemi models seems in full effect there.
How much research have you done? Have you read all the issues of Aiki News/Aikido Journal? Have you read most of the back issues of Black Belt magazine (they're on google)? How about Aikido Today magazine? How about Amdur's latest book? All the aikido books in English that are in print? How about all of Peter Goldsbury's articles? E-Budo threads? Aikiweb threads? Aikido Journal threads?

You're answering as if you've done a lot of the above. So, I'm curious as to why you failed to mention the Mochizuki article where he states that they used to seriously train sumo with Ueshiba and no one could beat Ueshiba at it.

Or how about Sagawa's mention of aiki age and how they used to hold each other down and cause nage to fail until nage did it *right* so that uke couldn't stop nage.

Or ... I get complaints because I post too many references, so I'll leave it up to other people to find them. Or go look at my previous posts for them.

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Because when you put two people in front of each other and say "You, try your hardest to throw him" and "you, try your hardest to keep from being thrown", then it is going to become a competition. I see no problem with that on its own, but in the context of aikido as we know it, I'm not so sure. IMO Ueshiba condemned competition for safety reasons.
Someone, I think it was Peter Goldsbury, but it could have been Josh Reyer or both or someone else because I forget whom, but someone translated what Ueshiba really meant by competition. I would suggest you do the research and find it so that you can begin to understand what Ueshiba meant when he "condemned competition" and then look up when Ueshiba said not to do things for "safety reasons". The two are not necessarily tied together, nor are they defined as commonly believed.

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
You put people of varying skill levels together, some with real skills, some with a hint of them and some with none at all and tell them to work on these techniques, some of which can very easily cause injury, you're setting the stage for problems when you also tell them to resist at all costs. The first time a semi-noob goes to shihonage a full-noob and full-noob just doesn't know enough to know that he's in no position to keep resisisting, POP, shoulder/elbow = gone.
You mean like when a Japanese shihan would actually hurt a junior when Ueshiba was in the room and Ueshiba wouldn't say a word? Hmmm .... That would never happen, right? Or Ueshiba would never injure a judoka's hip in practice, right?

The Modern Aikido world has had blinders on for far too long in regards to Morihei Ueshiba. Modern Aikido became Modern Aikido by using those blinders. Time for Modern Aikido to stand on its own (which it can do very well. It doesn't need to blind people about the truth of Morihei Ueshiba) and let the world see Morihei Ueshiba as he was.

Mark
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Old 08-22-2011, 04:19 PM   #43
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Co-operative training is useful, insofar as the teacher himself knows about bodyskill/aiki training and the sensations that go along with such training, and has a clear pedagogical method that allows him to articulate those sensations in, say, taking, applying, and neutralizing forces in a paired exercise. You then gradually make it less co-operative--I'd say, non-cooperative, bodyskill-focussed aikido would look like judo on the surface.
I agree with the first part, but might it not look a little like Shirata, Shioda, Tohei, etc.; the folks largely described as having some of these skills? Hell, might it not look like O Sensei's movements a bit more than judo? ...Though I suppose that depends on the judo we'd be comparing it to (particularly note to about a minute in).
My understanding is that "cooperative training" in Aikido includes a bit of play on the parts of nage and uke. It's not just going through the movements. Apart from that it seems like it's a matter of the degree of clarity with which the teacher can point out faults to the movement (i.e. structure in motion) and then the degree with which the student can then feel around in his or her body to replicate the effects felt of the teacher's movements.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 08-22-2011 at 04:32 PM.

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Old 08-22-2011, 04:35 PM   #44
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

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How much research have you done? Have you read all the issues of Aiki News/Aikido Journal? Have you read most of the back issues of Black Belt magazine (they're on google)? How about Aikido Today magazine? How about Amdur's latest book? All the aikido books in English that are in print? How about all of Peter Goldsbury's articles? E-Budo threads? Aikiweb threads? Aikido Journal threads?

You're answering as if you've done a lot of the above. So, I'm curious as to why you failed to mention the Mochizuki article where he states that they used to seriously train sumo with Ueshiba and no one could beat Ueshiba at it.

Or how about Sagawa's mention of aiki age and how they used to hold each other down and cause nage to fail until nage did it *right* so that uke couldn't stop nage.
Well I wouldn't call it research Mark, I'm not writing a book here, but I've read pretty much everything you listed there with the exception of the BB articles, numerous times in some cases. What are you curious about? Why I didn't remember one random article out of hundreds, by one guy, out of scores, who trained with him in that era? What? Was it a part of their regular training or was it "fun time with sensei". If it was a regular part of their training, why didn't he or any other others from his era bring it forward into their teaching and practice?

I assume at one time you actually worked on this stuff... Was it like Sagawa said or was it...more cooperative?

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Someone, I think it was Peter Goldsbury, but it could have been Josh Reyer or both or someone else because I forget whom, but someone translated what Ueshiba really meant by competition. I would suggest you do the research and find it so that you can begin to understand what Ueshiba meant when he "condemned competition" and then look up when Ueshiba said not to do things for "safety reasons". The two are not necessarily tied together, nor are they defined as commonly believed.
I think that was the rules of the dojo thread that was posted just recently I believe. ok?

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You mean like when a Japanese shihan would actually hurt a junior when Ueshiba was in the room and Ueshiba wouldn't say a word? Hmmm .... That would never happen, right? Or Ueshiba would never injure a judoka's hip in practice, right?
who said the guy was a saint? That's not even the point of the discussion. The judoka incident wasn't just "practice", which I'm sure you know, so I don't get the point.
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Old 08-22-2011, 04:41 PM   #45
graham christian
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

What is uncooperative training? I've never heard of it or seen it. Why? Because there's no such thing.

Maybe you all need a new word.

To understand Aikido you need to know the purpose is to harmonize.

An uke is one who attacks and then harmonizes with the counter.

A nage is one who harmonizes with the attack and becomes one with.

Thus uke and nage better learn to harmonize with motion. That's Aikido. Ukemi is merely the harmonizing with the motion of projection and secondly with the ground.

Any bullet head attacking harmony merely damages themself and yet to the unwise they see the opposite.

Regards.G.
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Old 08-22-2011, 08:52 PM   #46
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
What is uncooperative training? I've never heard of it or seen it. Why? Because there's no such thing.

Maybe you all need a new word.

To understand Aikido you need to know the purpose is to harmonize.

An uke is one who attacks and then harmonizes with the counter.

A nage is one who harmonizes with the attack and becomes one with.

Thus uke and nage better learn to harmonize with motion. That's Aikido. Ukemi is merely the harmonizing with the motion of projection and secondly with the ground.

Any bullet head attacking harmony merely damages themself and yet to the unwise they see the opposite.

Regards.G.
Graham, your description above about the relationship between Uke and Nage represents what I think the Modern Aikidos training failure has become. Uke shouldnt have to harmonize with Nage. Nages blending of Aiki should automatically harmonize Ukes attack. If Uke automatically harmonizes himself to Nages response what is seen is artaficial and not Aiki.

Andrew Prochnow
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Old 08-22-2011, 10:10 PM   #47
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

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Andrew Prochnow wrote: View Post
Graham, your description above about the relationship between Uke and Nage represents what I think the Modern Aikidos training failure has become. Uke shouldnt have to harmonize with Nage. Nages blending of Aiki should automatically harmonize Ukes attack. If Uke automatically harmonizes himself to Nages response what is seen is artaficial and not Aiki.

Andrew Prochnow
If one can't hit the opponent during boxing sparring, he'll say 'how poor I am!' But this is very usual in aikido, 'Hey. Why are you avoiding my punch? This is sparring. You should get hit too!' Breaking ego is much harder than achiving aiki.
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Old 08-23-2011, 08:34 AM   #48
graham christian
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

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Andrew Prochnow wrote: View Post
Graham, your description above about the relationship between Uke and Nage represents what I think the Modern Aikidos training failure has become. Uke shouldnt have to harmonize with Nage. Nages blending of Aiki should automatically harmonize Ukes attack. If Uke automatically harmonizes himself to Nages response what is seen is artaficial and not Aiki.

Andrew Prochnow
If uke harmonizes with nage then he will be doing good Aikido. Thus comes about the ukemi from projections. Not modern Aikido but true Aikido.

He who resists nage gets hurt and blames nage unless he is responsible and then sees it was his own departure that got him hurt.

Modern Aikido? What a stupid term. It implies the past is always better.

Such terminology merely serves to undermine.

Regards.G.
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Old 08-23-2011, 08:54 AM   #49
graham christian
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

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If one can't hit the opponent during boxing sparring, he'll say 'how poor I am!' But this is very usual in aikido, 'Hey. Why are you avoiding my punch? This is sparring. You should get hit too!' Breaking ego is much harder than achiving aiki.
Is that so? What a crazy thing to say. If the boxer can't hit the opponent then the opponent is very good at that aspect of boxing. It shows only that he is probably a better boxer. No disgrace to the other guy, just shows he needs to improve, probably in all aspects.

Getting hit is usually the result of bad Aikido from a nage perspective especially. If you don't understand this the you don't understand Aikido.

Now when it comes to being hit, to being held, to being grappled, to being thrown, it's the same principle- how to harmonize with. How do YOU harmonize with being hit? As you seem to like boxing then I'll point out to you that the great boxers learned how to do this. The less good obviously keep getting knocked out. Marvellous Marvin Hagler was a master of this aspect of boxing.

Sparring and comparing that to Aikido then you would see the less able doing what you would consider sparring, going at it, hits and misses, bumps and bruises. But can you see, can you visualize true Aikido sparring which would only really happen at a high level? For that is sparring in the art of harmony. By what you say I doubt you can.

Regards.G.
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Old 08-23-2011, 09:02 AM   #50
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Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

Graham, have you ever heard the saying, "The winner of a knife fight goes to the hospital"?
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