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Old 08-16-2011, 05:35 PM   #51
Keith Larman
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Keith,

If you'll stop calling me "Mr. Little" then I'll take a look on the shelves tonight after practice.

Fortuitously, there is no incompatibility between atheism and Buddhism. While I"m rummaging through my shelves, you might find the resources at the following link useful:

http://www.stephenbatchelor.org/book-confession.html

Best,

FL
Fred:

Cool book. Will have to add that to my reading list.

I've been reading more and more about Buddhism lately. I must say I find it to be a rather compelling worldview that seems to mesh quite well with my own worldview. Now not only do I have the body of Buddha, I'm starting to feel resonance with his views...

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Old 08-16-2011, 05:39 PM   #52
Keith Larman
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
What is key is that what most people would call their hips, is not what you really need to move for power in relation to their hips and waist, or what and why it is important to move their waist in the first place.
Hey, I resemble that remark...

Hardest thing for me still is getting everything working together rather than locking some part or another up (tight a**ed white guy). I keep working on it by myself, but it would sure help if my back would stay healthy... I need a live-in masseuse. The wife just doesn't have the strength to tear in to my back...

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Old 08-16-2011, 05:49 PM   #53
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Hey, I resemble that remark...

Hardest thing for me still is getting everything working together rather than locking some part or another up (tight a**ed white guy). I keep working on it by myself, but it would sure help if my back would stay healthy... I need a live-in masseuse. The wife just doesn't have the strength to tear in to my back...
I can only say go slow. That movement, in conjunction with breath power supprts and heals the body. That ain't bad as a goal in itself but considering that it gives great power, stability and ghosty softness to boot, ya can't go wrong.
Hope to see ya again, with a smaller workshop.
Dan
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Old 08-16-2011, 06:27 PM   #54
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Hey, Dan, I'm a budo vagrant. I'll hit any seminar I can as long as I can get a hall pass from the wife and permission from the doctor. Even sometimes when I can't... I wish someone would get Howard Popkin out here too. I would love to see things through his lenses for a while. Heck, I had a blast with Aaron Clark and his students up at the Aikiweb seminar a few years back.

For now they've lined up a new MRI for my back. They're wondering if I did more damage than they thought when I fractured the tailbone... Still having pain from that damned thing almost 9 months later.

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Old 08-16-2011, 06:48 PM   #55
graham christian
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

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Howard Prior wrote: View Post
This Koshi is different than, or the same as, the same word, in English, in the phrase koshi-nage?

Howard
The same word Howard.
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Old 08-16-2011, 06:54 PM   #56
graham christian
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Hey, I resemble that remark...

Hardest thing for me still is getting everything working together rather than locking some part or another up (tight a**ed white guy). I keep working on it by myself, but it would sure help if my back would stay healthy... I need a live-in masseuse. The wife just doesn't have the strength to tear in to my back...
Aha. A pain in your Koshi, as the Japanese would say. Yet anoyher reason for you to learn about Koshi and how to relax it.

Regards.G.
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Old 08-16-2011, 07:54 PM   #57
graham christian
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

As not many have vocally said of their experience with Koshi I shall add some for the silent ones.

So far the main points I have stated are these.

1) Koshi is the second, equally important point of mind and body unification.

2) It is the centre of Gravity or Earth Ki.

3) It is in laymans terms the bottom of the back or the back of the pelvis. It is commonly referred to as such in Japan.

4) It is a prominent factor of all Japanese martial arts from their inception.

5) It is commonly held in such martial arts as the power base and also the pivot around which one turns the body in movement.

6) Like hara it can be developed.

7) After prolonged use of weight underside one can become more and more aware of it's significance.

8) Koshi is the key to true relaxation.

Now I will add.

The more aware of it and of the Earth Ki, the grounding Ki, the easier weight underside becomes and indeed the the greater understanding of cutting with a sword.

Also the more one becomes aware of and able to use non-resistance. For the spiritual aspect of Koshi is absolute non-resistance whereas the spiritual aspect of hara is universal love which expands out to kokyu.

Thus resistance breeds bad backs. Thus the bottom of the back is a most usual place to carry stress for the door to Koshi is usually shut tight.

Thus also any Koshi nage I do results in uke falling straight down as if they have fell into a hole. There is no up and over therefore in my Koshinage.

To perform the usual Koshinage I would thus state that in actual fact from the view of Koshi versus Hara or centre then physically you are throwing with the hips but in actual fact you are pushing centre or hara through your back to project the uke over. So I would differenciate here and call that standard Koshinage and show the two ways. That way and my way.

Now when you go to bed tonight in that big soft mattress you can imagine how you're sinking into a place of non-resistance and relaxation. Koshi. Then when you wake up you can yawn and gather the enlvening ebergy of the universe into hara ans see what a great day it's going to be.

Goodnight.

G.
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Old 08-16-2011, 09:26 PM   #58
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

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Fred Little wrote: View Post
Can any discussion of koshi be complete without the expert guidance of Slim Harpo?

(Bonus visualizations and indications of sunyata! No charge!)

FL
Just got to love the Blues - there is some real IS stuff going on there

Greg
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Old 08-16-2011, 09:41 PM   #59
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Graham,

You talk about 'Koshi' as if it is a concept or principle - to most of us the word 'Koshi' simply refers to a physical part of the body, 'hips' specifically - I am an old Ki Society guy and koshi was simply referred to as a hip throw as in koshi-nage; nothing more and nothing less.

Greg
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:47 PM   #60
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Graham,

You talk about 'Koshi' as if it is a concept or principle - to most of us the word 'Koshi' simply refers to a physical part of the body, 'hips' specifically - I am an old Ki Society guy and koshi was simply referred to as a hip throw as in koshi-nage; nothing more and nothing less.

Greg
Hi Greg -

Since I had never heard of koshi referred to as Graham writes about it in his OP I decided to do a little research. Below are three links to pages where koshi is discussed in terms that go beyond merely referring to koshi as a physical part of the body. It's evident that, at least for some schools of Karate, that koshi is more than just a physical descriptor. It's equated to whole body mechanics, a system for the transference of power in the body and a way that integrates the mid section of the body via multi-directional control of the core. Interesting reading.

http://www.kishabajuku.org/~blucas/i...es/Page318.htm

http://karatejutsu.blogspot.com/2011...y-and-age.html

http://www.shinjinbukan.com/dictionary_K.html

Best,

Ron

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Old 08-16-2011, 10:52 PM   #61
Janet Rosen
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Ron, thank you for links; bit too fatigued to look at them tonight but plan to read soon!

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 08-16-2011, 11:31 PM   #62
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

:-)

Ahem... as I said before...... "uh, what Fred, Janet, and Keith said... in spades, three times." ... and what they said after that... :-|

best regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 08-17-2011, 07:27 AM   #63
gregstec
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Hi Greg -

Since I had never heard of koshi referred to as Graham writes about it in his OP I decided to do a little research. Below are three links to pages where koshi is discussed in terms that go beyond merely referring to koshi as a physical part of the body. It's evident that, at least for some schools of Karate, that koshi is more than just a physical descriptor. It's equated to whole body mechanics, a system for the transference of power in the body and a way that integrates the mid section of the body via multi-directional control of the core. Interesting reading.

http://www.kishabajuku.org/~blucas/i...es/Page318.htm

http://karatejutsu.blogspot.com/2011...y-and-age.html

http://www.shinjinbukan.com/dictionary_K.html

Best,

Ron
Hi Ron,

Be that as it may, that is all fine and good in a Karate context. However, Graham has implied that his view of Koshi is how it was taught to him as part of Tohei's teaching - all I am saying is that I have never heard of it being looked at that way from any of Tohei's stuff, or in any Aikido context at all. Since someone asked if any Ki Society folks have heard of Koshi that way, I responded

Greg
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Old 08-17-2011, 07:42 AM   #64
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Ron, thank you for links; bit too fatigued to look at them tonight but plan to read soon!
it's nothing that you don't know already. the chinese term, methink, is "kua". it's the power coupling area to transfer power from the legs to the trunk of your body, similar to the shoulder that transfer power from the trunk to the arms. ICMA would say to "keep the kua relax and round" so that you don't block or dampen the power flow to/from your legs to your trunk. personally, i think i have some blockage, because my ass is getting bigger (there might be a shelf or two here), yet my hips are still girlish, which presents a huge challenge to keep it out of the boot-up-the-ass-do.
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Old 08-17-2011, 08:29 AM   #65
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
it's nothing that you don't know already. the chinese term, methink, is "kua". it's the power coupling area to transfer power from the legs to the trunk of your body, similar to the shoulder that transfer power from the trunk to the arms. ICMA would say to "keep the kua relax and round" so that you don't block or dampen the power flow to/from your legs to your trunk. personally, i think i have some blockage, because my ass is getting bigger (there might be a shelf or two here), yet my hips are still girlish, which presents a huge challenge to keep it out of the boot-up-the-ass-do.
Yes, the proper development and use of kua (or inguinal fold) does play an important roll in power generation, but that is not the hips.

Greg
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Old 08-17-2011, 09:03 AM   #66
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
...use of kua (or inguinal fold)...
I'm not sure that kua actually means inguinal fold, though it often is used that way.

Howard
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Old 08-17-2011, 09:20 AM   #67
Patrick Hutchinson
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

I think the inguinal fold is an origami waza.
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Old 08-17-2011, 09:37 AM   #68
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Howard Prior wrote: View Post
I'm not sure that kua actually means inguinal fold, though it often is used that way.

Howard
Well, when I talk to my Chiropractor (who also trains with me) about the kua he calls that the inguinal fold and inguinal canal area. FWIW.

Greg
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Old 08-17-2011, 11:29 AM   #69
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Thought this was interesting:

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle2.htm
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Old 08-17-2011, 12:15 PM   #70
Howard Prior
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

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Jeff Black wrote: View Post
me too
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Old 08-17-2011, 12:42 PM   #71
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Well, when I talk to my Chiropractor (who also trains with me) about the kua he calls that the inguinal fold and inguinal canal area. FWIW.

Greg
Yes, I have heard the word used that way. I don't know if clarity here is a simple matter of a word from a Chinese language native or a matter for a conference between Chinese speaking martial artists, English speaking martial artists, and at least a handful of martial artists that speak both languages.

I came across an article some time ago that I was able to track down in my notes. I don't know where I got it from. A quick search of the title yields the following website:

http://internalartsia.wordpress.com/...ge-of-the-kua/

A cursory glance suggests that the material is the same.

Anyway, here is a bit taken from an article titled:

Function and Usage of the kua

Q & A with Chen Zhonghua

This article presents questions and answers, based on instructions in workshops, with Chen Zhonghua. The course material was Hong's Practical Method of Chen style Tai Chi. Training emphasized mechanics and application skills. This selection of those questions and answers dealt with understanding of function and usage of the kua,in developing those skills....
....
Anatomy and General Understanding
Q. It is quite common for teachers of the internal arts to emphasize the importance of the kua for attainment of higher levels of skill. What could you say about the kua in terms of its role in the practice of Tai Chi?
Its fundamental role is that without the kua the upper and lower body cannot properly work together. The kua is the body part responsible for integration of upper and lower body.
Q. Can you give some description or details? In context of the hips, groin, pelvic girdle, or the femur, speaking in simple layman's view of anatomy—- how would you describe the kua?
The kua is that ball joint inside, at the top of the thigh bone. I dont know the English name for it (femur), the ball joint inside, inside the hip.
Q. The tops of the thigh bones that rotate?
Yes, the ball joint, thats the kua.
The rest, the body parts connected with it, are just things associated with it. Thats why there is always confusion, why the understanding of it always changes. At different levels you will be able to associate your kua with other parts of your body. Its these various different perceptions of experience of the kua, that give rise to different explanations of the kua among different masters or teachers.
Q. When they talk about the kua, maybe their definitions are more in terms of its usage?
Yes. As you exercise that joint, itaffects the structure and movement of your body. The better you are at using the kua, the better your body is coordinated. So it will appear that different masters use the kua differently, with varying levels and depth of experience of that function.. Ability to connect the kua with better integration with the body reveals higher skill.
But the simple objective anatomical definition of the kua has not been wrong in the past. It is commonly understood to be that ball joint.

I can't vouch for the veracity of this or of the article as a whole but I'm pretty sure it is worth reading and considering.

Now whether this has to do with the mind/body connections of Japanese martial arts I do not know. But, I'd like to.

Howard

Last edited by Howard Prior : 08-17-2011 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 08-17-2011, 01:34 PM   #72
graham christian
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Hi Ron,

Be that as it may, that is all fine and good in a Karate context. However, Graham has implied that his view of Koshi is how it was taught to him as part of Tohei's teaching - all I am saying is that I have never heard of it being looked at that way from any of Tohei's stuff, or in any Aikido context at all. Since someone asked if any Ki Society folks have heard of Koshi that way, I responded

Greg
Wrong again Greg I'm afraid. It is not me who implied this, it is those who want to find fault, a usual pastime for some.

I said I was taught it and my teacher emphasised Toheis principles. He knew the connection with Koshi. How? Who knows.

He was also taught mainly by Noro Sensei and when the split came in England he chose the route of Ki developement rather than force. So the continual link to Tohei is misplaced unless he was in fact taught it by Tohei. All this however is irrelevent as I am stating it and thus you can either learn or dismiss. I am also giving you references for you to gain increased knowledge of Koshi and it's history.

Another factor of My teacher was he was very stern in his teaching and zen. So we have a teacher who was zen orientated and taught what he had learned from Tohei and Noro and as to who else I don't know.

Have fun.G.
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Old 08-17-2011, 02:55 PM   #73
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Wrong again Greg I'm afraid. It is not me who implied this, it is those who want to find fault, a usual pastime for some.

I said I was taught it and my teacher emphasised Toheis principles. He knew the connection with Koshi. How? Who knows.

He was also taught mainly by Noro Sensei and when the split came in England he chose the route of Ki developement rather than force. So the continual link to Tohei is misplaced unless he was in fact taught it by Tohei. All this however is irrelevent as I am stating it and thus you can either learn or dismiss. I am also giving you references for you to gain increased knowledge of Koshi and it's history.

Another factor of My teacher was he was very stern in his teaching and zen. So we have a teacher who was zen orientated and taught what he had learned from Tohei and Noro and as to who else I don't know.

Have fun.G.
Thanks Graham, now I know where to go to find out when I am wrong about things

Your use of the term 'Koshi' apparently is more aligned with those from a Karate perceptive, nothing wrong with that at all - However, from a more general Aikido perspective, the term 'Koshi' simply means hips as in a hip throw - that is all I was saying.

Greg
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Old 08-17-2011, 04:01 PM   #74
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

No Patrick. The linguinal fold is what happens if you get some good linguini with some bad seafood in it..
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Old 08-17-2011, 04:22 PM   #75
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
The point of the issue is that Western and Eastern cultures have very different conceptions at the very core of issues such as mind/body.
Yes. I would have thought that the "western" concept was more mind and body and the "eastern" concept more mind/body.

Quote:
So when someone starts to analyze the "meaning" of certain things through the eyes of the other culture apparently disregarding the very different underlying world view there is inevitably a significant alteration or loss of meaning.
Yes. At least I gather you mean that when one culture begins an attempt to understand another it cannot help but approach the attempt from its own point of view and that any progress toward real understanding is hard won.

Quote:
Misunderstanding abound as a result of this.
All too true and yet just this makes for a lively foment (not ferment, Phi) - not always a bad thing.

Quote:
The reference to Wittgenstein was a rather subtle concept he raised in the tractatus about how our way of understanding the world, even things like mathematics, physics, etc. in essence force our understanding to conform to our method of understanding.
Kant?

Quote:
Some would argue that his underlying point was that there could very well be other ways of seeing the same thing giving different representations of reality which would in turn alter our conceptions of other things as well.
Yes, I can see the possibility.

Quote:
So things like a very subtle difference in how mind/body (the very title of this thread) between cultures could have a significant effect on how one understand issues.
Yes, I agree. This would seem to be a magnification of the problems inherent in any communication ('There's glory for you!'). When do we ever understand one another? You know what I mean? Yet, clearly, cross cultural communication comes with its own raft of problems. Similar, though different, is the attempt to translate poetry from one language to another. One might get the meter. One might get the rhyme. One might get the meaning. Difficult to get all three into a second language (hard enough, I say, to get it into the original language).

Quote:
The very fact that some will talk about mind/body/spirit has having to be something to be dealt with shows a preconceived notion that those things are somehow distinct, different, or whatever.
Well, maybe you are right. I was not, however, really thinking of the word spirit in a religious or a spooky context.

Quote:
Or that the question is even relevant at all. It implies a certain world view where to another viewpoint the entire discussion may be not so much trivial as it would be without any meaning at all. In other words, nonsense in one meaning of the word.
I suppose I see it as though individuals have a circle (okay, maybe it's a spiral) of concepts that are different one from another though with overlapping areas of understanding. We share much. We do not share all. Different cultures are just more individuals with a tendency toward more distant edges and less overlap. We still share much. There is much we do not.
As you suggest, an interpreter may take a word, or an idea, from one culture as the equivalent of a word, or idea, in another. It may be a good fit. It may be passible. It may be a laughable mistake. So much the more with core values and concepts such as: right, wrong, good, evil, beauty.
I figure that even if they are not the same each culture has much in common it the phenomena it experiences and thus that which it tries to explain: life, death, loving, fighting, birth, growth, decay, hunger, pain, joy, friendship. The meanings and connections vary. We all see the sun and the moon but they do not mean the same thing to all of us.
By the way, returning to mere words, politicians seem to need to be expert at saying things that mean one thing to someone and another to someone else, at casting one line to catch two fish. There is a certain power in a word that means the same and different things.

Quote:
…Emily Latella...
Thanks for the reference - I hadn't come across it before.

I'm still in the weeds with hara and koshi and even nage. Haven't quite been able to wrap my mind around them.

Now Phi, I once was exposed to a wonderful egg-nage.

Cheers,
Howard
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