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Old 08-09-2011, 05:25 PM   #26
Mike Sigman
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

OK, so we agree... you don't need to be "spiraling" to allow the force of the ground through you. The force of the ground is, for all practical purposes, a linear force; to suggest otherwise is to misunderstand physics.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-09-2011, 05:58 PM   #27
DH
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Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?

This model and idea that force leaves the body and supports a brick through a linear line, through space is a fallacy and doesn't work.
If that idea had merit then:
1. Take your hand off the brick and have your linear force hold it up...see how that works for ya.
2. Make the brick, a car and hold it....see how that works out for ya.
3. Hold up your sword and walk away

This idea is mistaking a basic training model (like Tohei and DR shows) with more advanced aspects of conditioning that need to be developed and that produce greater softness and control AND the actual effect in the demonstration.
This teaching will limit real understanding; like the very real effect that kokyu has on the body and how it affects the system in actual use and how that affects someone holding you. It will leave people shoulder reliant and confused why they are not progressing. What removes load, manipulates load, creates aiki and has some sophisticated controls of an opponents forces and his reaction to your reactions is where the real work begins.
This...isn't it.
FWIW, only thinking linear internally will be reflected externally. One of the common criticisms of MAers who think and move this way is how easy they are to get around.

Dan
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Old 08-09-2011, 06:33 PM   #28
Mike Sigman
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Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This model and idea that force leaves the body and supports a brick through a linear line, through space is a fallacy and doesn't work.
Dan, did you miss all the discussions through the years about vector resultants? It's possible you didn't study vector analysis in relation to forces, but trust me we're talking about a vector resultant. If you look back in the archives, I've shown the how's and why's of it, including with pictures. None of the people with physics training batted an eye at the time because it's a fairly simple concept.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:03 PM   #29
Mike Sigman
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

The point in clarifying that the "support of the ground" is a linear force and can be conveyed through the body without worrying very much about what sorts of stresses are in the body is that "grounding" a push, pushing with basic jin, and so on is actually fairly simple. Yet, I've been running into a number of people who are missing the fairly simple skill because they've been worrying about "dual opposing spirals". Let me deal with the topic of "dual opposing spirals" for a a bit (Jonathan... call me on any errors of logic, etc., please). After that I'll segue into a couple of other things in an attempt to cut through the mumbo-jumbo.

In the Qi paradigm, the focus is on how the body works. There is no one way for Japan and another way for China and a different way for the Ookum-Bookum Koryu. Qi is about how the body works and how strength is conveyed (thus health and other things follow and interplay).

The body tends to wind in two different ways. This is an old very basic concept about how the qi of the body works. If nothing else, just twist to the right and then twist to the left and pay attention to your legs like they're cylinders. Notice how one leg twists one way (say, "outward") and the other twists the other way ("inward") in a turn of a given direction. If you track the twisting of the whole body as a connected unit you'll notice the universality of the two directions of twist. It's so universal that it's mentioned in the Chinese classics from thousands of years ago. They draw diagrams like this:



This is the magical "dual opposing spirals", but it's really nothing more than a description of how tensions move across the body fascia in relation to way a human body moves. Notice that the lines don't 'crossover' into an "X".

If you twist pretty far and with your arms somewhat outstretched you'll notice that tension builds up torsionally as the surface of the body is stretched. You could learn to cause that same stretch without all the twisting... but that's still not what the "qi" refers to. However, the general idea is there and is fairly easy to grasp.

You can actually set up contradictory tensions all over the place, but if they're not contradictions of the "qi", you're talking about something quite different.

Regardless of any tensions you set up, right or wrong, within the body, the body will still act as a structure (once you train) that will convey the solidity of the ground through it. Hence, it's correct to just "relax" and let the structure convey the solidity of the ground. Worries about "dual opposing spirals" can come later in training because if a person doesn't have simple jin skills, the worries about other things like spirals is simply a waste of time. Learn the alphabet before trying write an essay.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:34 PM   #30
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Wow, I actually thought from what I've heard that you guys would actually agree more regarding the basics. I thought the differences were further along, in things like application, emphasis, etc.

I think it's great that you are both putting it out there, and people can see that you disagree and just read and process. From the point of view of a beginner-- I wish the two of you had met long ago so that you could know first-hand what you are referring to. I think you are both being honest and cautioning against different incompetences that you have seen-- but I don't think the written word is actually communicating the physical feelings that you are referring to. Instead the written word may be exaggerating your differences in mental framework.
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:47 PM   #31
Mike Sigman
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Quote:
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Wow, I actually thought from what I've heard that you guys would actually agree more regarding the basics. I thought the differences were further along, in things like application, emphasis, etc.
No, the differences start at the absolute basics. Ueshiba was referring to classically known (commonly so) aspects of internal strength. When people take a simple concept like the opposing possibilites of turning the qi/suit and turn them into imaginary whirling tornados, etc., that's not "different perspectives", Jonathan. As I've said a number of times, what Dan is calling "internal strength" and what I'm calling internal strength are two different things.

When I get some time tomorrow, I'll lay out another aspect to build onto the two I've covered. There's a critical difference about some of these things that comes out in the wash when another aspect of the body is developed: my point being that there is one irrefutable logic that ties all these things together and that's part of the beauty of the whole qi/ki paradigm. We're not talking about "different viewpoints" when it comes to the support of the ground being linear or the well-known turning aspects of the body. That's physics and tradition, not "perspective".

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-10-2011, 03:55 AM   #32
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Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Dan, did you miss all the discussions through the years about vector resultants? It's possible you didn't study vector analysis in relation to forces, but trust me we're talking about a vector resultant. If you look back in the archives, I've shown the how's and why's of it, including with pictures. None of the people with physics training batted an eye at the time because it's a fairly simple concept.
Ok, I have an actual physics degree, so let me comment on this. First of all, having a composite force travel through empty space is no big deal: for example when you do regular pushups, the force vector travels from your shoulder to your hand without encountering any part of your body. Doesn't mean something 'internal' is going on, just the torque on the elbow created by the triceps.

So to obtain a straight force from dantian to hand, you cannot escape dealing with the chain of hinges that connects them. No matter whether you put most of the load in one hinge (typically the shoulder), spread it out evenly over each hinge or engage the fascia spanning all hinges, in all cases the resultant force will be a straight vector from dantian to hand. That's not what makes it internal. HOW you transfer the force through that chain of hinges, and by which mechanism you keep the hinges from collapsing under the load, that's what matters.

Another thing about hinges: their movement is circular. There's no such thing as a straight line force effector within the human body (though pressurizing the abdomen comes close): it's all circles. This does not mean that it's impossible to get a straight line force: just balance two counteracting hinges.

And this is where spirals become interesting: a spiral is the superposition of a (curvi-)linear movement, and a circular movement around it. Now, how do you get linear movement from spiral? Add two of them with opposite directions: the circles cancel out and the linear force remains. Since spiral tensions seem to be a natural consequence of using the fascia in movement, and two spirals can create a linear force, focusing upon the spirals may not be such a bad idea.

OTOH, there is the school of thought which professes that knowing too much in detail is detrimental for training physical attributes. In that regard, it may be better to try and achieve a linear jin by simply willing it (yi): once you have that, you have the two opposing spirals anyway, since they are what the linear force is physically composed of. Which is what "let the body do the rest" means, I guess. It has a certain elegance, though IMO it's way to vulnerable to self-delusion. I prefer knowing what's going on, though that approach has it's own weaknesses.
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:16 AM   #33
Mike Sigman
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Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?

Quote:
Alex Borghgraef wrote: View Post
First of all, having a composite force travel through empty space is no big deal:
Hello, "Iskander":

That's in agreement with what I said.

Quote:

for example when you do regular pushups, the force vector travels from your shoulder to your hand without encountering any part of your body. Doesn't mean something 'internal' is going on, just the torque on the elbow created by the triceps.
Well, you're introducing the undefined term "internal" into the discussion. Can you tell us what makes a force "internal" or not, in the way that you're using it? "Internal", from my point of view, indicates that something is part of the "neijin"; since your example force is a simple vector resultant but does not depend on dantien, ground-jin, etc., I agree that it is not "internal", but you might be using the term in some other way, so I thought I'd better ask.
Quote:

So to obtain a straight force from dantian to hand, you cannot escape dealing with the chain of hinges that connects them. No matter whether you put most of the load in one hinge (typically the shoulder), spread it out evenly over each hinge or engage the fascia spanning all hinges, in all cases the resultant force will be a straight vector from dantian to hand. That's not what makes it internal. HOW you transfer the force through that chain of hinges, and by which mechanism you keep the hinges from collapsing under the load, that's what matters.
OK, could you clarify your assertion about how you transfer forces? The original question was only about whether there is a linear force from the dantien to the opponent. Are a number of other things going on in the body at the same time? Yes, but that was discussed pretty well in previous posts.
Quote:

Another thing about hinges: their movement is circular. There's no such thing as a straight line force effector within the human body (though pressurizing the abdomen comes close): it's all circles. This does not mean that it's impossible to get a straight line force: just balance two counteracting hinges.

And this is where spirals become interesting: a spiral is the superposition of a (curvi-)linear movement, and a circular movement around it. Now, how do you get linear movement from spiral? Add two of them with opposite directions: the circles cancel out and the linear force remains. Since spiral tensions seem to be a natural consequence of using the fascia in movement, and two spirals can create a linear force, focusing upon the spirals may not be such a bad idea.
There are spirals everywhere, Iskander... what spirals are you talking about? What are they composed of? Where are they attached? What is powering them?
Quote:

OTOH, there is the school of thought which professes that knowing too much in detail is detrimental for training physical attributes. In that regard, it may be better to try and achieve a linear jin by simply willing it (yi): once you have that, you have the two opposing spirals anyway, since they are what the linear force is physically composed of. Which is what "let the body do the rest" means, I guess. It has a certain elegance, though IMO it's way to vulnerable to self-delusion. I prefer knowing what's going on, though that approach has it's own weaknesses.
What two spirals are you talking about, Iskander? Are you talking about two-spirals that form some sort of resultant linear vector to an opponent and the force itself from these spirals is the ground-force? The groundforce "starts at the feet, is controlled by the waist, and is expressed in the fingers". What force are you talking about and where/what are these spirals you're positing?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

P.S. BTW.... why don't you clarify for people your relationship to me over the years?
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:57 AM   #34
DH
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The point in clarifying that the "support of the ground" is a linear force and can be conveyed through the body without worrying very much about what sorts of stresses are in the body is that "grounding" a push, pushing with basic jin, and so on is actually fairly simple. Yet, I've been running into a number of people who are missing the fairly simple skill because they've been worrying about "dual opposing spirals".
You are of course referring to me again...you simply can't help yourself. Shot across the bow...okay
I run into people who have been training internals for years focusing on ground paths and vectors who are missing the real skills they should be training and they can't do anything.
Quote:
In the Qi paradigm, the focus is on how the body works. Regardless of any tensions you set up, right or wrong, within the body, the body will still act as a structure (once you train) that will convey the solidity of the ground through it. Hence, it's correct to just "relax" and let the structure convey the solidity of the ground. Worries about "dual opposing spirals" can come later in training because if a person doesn't have simple jin skills, the worries about other things like spirals is simply a waste of time. Learn the alphabet before trying write an essay.
2 cents.
Mike Sigman
I would say this is all but useless advice.
It is interesting that you deny the need or use of spiral energy (which is just as well as you simply don't understand what it is), then advocate it as past the basics -writing an essay over learning the alphabet.

Movement issues
Isn't it funny I have been run into a whole bunch of people who have trained and have been worrying about vector paths who can't do anything meaningful. This idea that the body will take care of itself once you set up a linear path is the reason I see shoulder issues, scapulars sticking out, hips rocking back, and feet rocking. Point of fact is that so many who are doing these things are not settled and relaxed in the proper way, and their bodies disconnect under load. They remain stiff and when they try to demonstrate fluidity under load it is a weird display; demonstrating obvious sticky points in movement along a line.
Why?
Because their bodies "just relaxing" are in fact...a mess and will remain a mess throughout their careers.
I strongly advocate people get out and train with all of these internet pundits. How they move, how they feel and how they look with a weapon in their hand and how they pole shake, is their statement. Not what they write.
What their methods and opiions have done to themselves...is what they are about to do to you, so choose wisely.
Dan
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Old 08-10-2011, 09:13 AM   #35
Mike Sigman
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You are of course referring to me again...you simply can't help yourself. Shot across the bow...okay
I run into people who have been training internals for years focusing on ground paths and vectors who are missing the real skills they should be training and they can't do anything.

I would say this is all but useless advice.
It is interesting that you deny the need or use of spiral energy (which is just as well as you simply don't understand what it is), then advocate it as past the basics -writing an essay over learning the alphabet.

Movement issues
Isn't it funny I have been run into a whole bunch of people who have trained and have been worrying about vector paths who can't do anything meaningful. This idea that the body will take care of itself once you set up a linear path is the reason I see shoulder issues, scapulars sticking out, hips rocking back, and feet rocking. Point of fact is that so many who are doing these things are not settled and relaxed in the proper way, and their bodies disconnect under load. They remain stiff and when they try to demonstrate fluidity under load it is a weird display; demonstrating obvious sticky points in movement along a line.
Why?
Because their bodies "just relaxing" are in fact...a mess and will remain a mess throughout their careers.
I strongly advocate people get out and train with all of these internet pundits. How they move, how they feel and how they look with a weapon in their hand and how they pole shake, is their statement. Not what they write.
What their methods and opiions have done to themselves...is what they are about to do to you, so choose wisely.
Dan
Dan, this is supposed to be a factual thread with a modicum of support to any assertions. Also, putdowns, implied putdowns, etc., need to be left at the door. Can you tell *how* your ideas work, why, etc.? In terms of relaxing and using the support of the ground, that's a mainstay of the study of internal strength and you can find it in many books. Try, as one example, Cheng Man Ching's "13 Treatises" where he mentions a number of the classical commentaries.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-10-2011, 09:32 AM   #36
DH
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Dan, this is supposed to be a factual thread with a modicum of support to any assertions. Also, putdowns, implied putdowns, etc., need to be left at the door. Can you tell *how* your ideas work, why, etc.? In terms of relaxing and using the support of the ground, that's a mainstay of the study of internal strength and you can find it in many books. Try, as one example, Cheng Man Ching's "13 Treatises" where he mentions a number of the classical commentaries.
Regards,
Mike Sigman
Lets take a poll Mike
How many people know I am the only one who has been strongly advocating spiral energy and talking about duel spirals here?
How many know what this really is?

Your entire opener, the other thread that Jun blew up that was an outright personal attack... are all ill-disguised attempts for you shoot down what I do. You have this obsession and competition thing going on.

As for your argument here
You have no support for your assertions other than your opinion and your skill..That leaves you gaping holes in your constant harassing of me.
a. You have never adequately defined spiraling; either in what I do or in taiji theory.
b. Your videos and public teaching have demonstrated no competence in doing what I do.
What possible motive do I have in debating someone who doesn't know the subject and can't do what I do and is obsessed with shooting it down?
I'd rather wish you well in your own search and be done with it.

My continued recommendation is for people to go train with others and see what they can do. There are good players out there with theories of their own. Many of whom think you and I are full of B.S. Fine by me. I have no interest or need to compete with you or anyone else. My understanding is in my own hands to be judged and I am actually helping people and making a difference.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-10-2011 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 08-10-2011, 09:48 AM   #37
Mike Sigman
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Lets take a poll Mike
Dan, what has a popularity poll got to do with a factual discussion? You asserted that there wasn't a way for a linear force to be used as was being discussed. That point has been shown to be simply wrong, but if you want to debate it, please do so.
Quote:
How many people know I am the only one who has been strongly advocating spiral energy and talking about duel spirals here?
How many know what this really is?
I don't know what "spiral energy" is, other than a vague term. I'm on record and video teaching "silk reeling" exercises for many years (long before they came up in any of your posts), but silk-reeling is not "energy", in a correct use of the term "energy". Your "dual spirals" are, as I said, apparently misunderstandings of the old Chinese observation about the two ways of winding that naturally occur in the human body. I've been teaching those 2 methods for many years, even before the QiJin forum. I originally learned the essence of them from Zhang Xue Xin back in the 1980's. Your idea that the natural spirals of the body somehow cause people not to be movable in the jin sense isn't correct. A simple statics diagram should tell you that in an instant. However, if that's your position, can you tell us how it works?

[snip personal remarks by Dan]

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-10-2011, 10:20 AM   #38
Marc Abrams
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It's the same old story

OKAY FOLKS!

LET'S REVIEW:

1) Mike Sigman begins another thread that is DIRECTLY related to his disagreement with Dan Harden, while at the same time, wanting to somehow keep it "not personal".

2) Dan weighs in on post #27. He does not directly reference Mike, but the MERE PRESENCE of a response from him is like a nice piece of magnesium.

3) Mike responds on post #28 with slight, back-handed, personal attack at Dan. Ah, Water and Magnesium meet......

4) Mike recovers and post #29 is all about his beliefs, along with supporting documentation.

5) Jonathan tries to reinforce the neutral response zone nature of posts between the two of them in post #30.

6) Mike responds in post #31 to Jonathan and almost makes it to the end, and then falters in trying to re-assert that his position is not a perspective but "fact".

7) Alex jumps in with post#32 and provides a counter argument based upon non-personal information.

8) Mike begins to violate his own attempt at not letting things get personal with his response to Alex (post #33).

9) Dan directly calls Mike to task in post#34 about how Mike is using this thread to once again try and prove himself right while proving Mike wrong.

10) The familiar back and forth between Mike and Dan now place this thread in the basket with all others when ANY reference from either of them have to do with the other person.

This is Marv Albert signing off. Damn, I need to take that skirt off. Is there any woman nearby that I can bite......... .

SERIOUSLY FOLKS:

This is why I suggested some ground rules in which Dan and Mike agree to NOT reference the other person in any manner, shape or form. I frankly cannot understand why Jun does not make this standard operating procedure.....

Marc Abrams
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Old 08-10-2011, 10:43 AM   #39
DH
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Dan, what has a popularity poll got to do with a factual discussion? You asserted that there wasn't a way for a linear force to be used as was being discussed. That point has been shown to be simply wrong, but if you want to debate it, please do so.
It is wrong and it leaves so many of you with all the issues I described. Many of those training that way know it and show it. It is a common failure in the External and internal arts. Why do I want to debate a model with you? I'd rather spend time fixing it in the people who obviously need it.

Quote:
I don't know what "spiral energy" is, other than a vague term. I'm on record and video teaching "silk reeling" exercises for many years (long before they came up in any of your posts), but silk-reeling is not "energy", in a correct use of the term "energy". Your "dual spirals" are, as I said, apparently misunderstandings of the old Chinese observation about the two ways of winding that naturally occur in the human body. I've been teaching those 2 methods for many years, even before the QiJin forum. I originally learned the essence of them from Zhang Xue Xin back in the 1980's. Your idea that the natural spirals of the body somehow cause people not to be movable in the jin sense isn't correct. A simple statics diagram should tell you that in an instant. However, if that's your position, can you tell us how it works?
Mike Sigman
You haven't made one correct statement yet.
1. You telling me what my ideas are would require your understanding of them and expertise or at least competence in their use. I have seen you move.
2. I never used the term silk reeling, I was told I was silk reeling by two "real" experts and a host of lower level teachers. I still don't use silk reeling as a term. I never used the term, kua or mingmen either. I had a master class Taiji teacher with his hands all over me use those terms.
3. I have adopted some terms, not others, and adopted some good training drills from three teachers of ICMA....and?

4, FWIW, winding is not spiraling. You shouldn't confuse the two.
And once again You're putting words in my mouth doesn't make a case. "My idea of using the natural spirals of the body somehow cause people not to be movable in the jin sense".... is not what I say or do. That's your misguided ideas and statement. You're missing some fairly important things.

Terminology
You should consider that there are people using their bodies congruent with the Chinese arts who never knew the Chinese terms...or not, whatever fits your agenda.

I'm out. I said what I wanted to say.
Many of us have seen and met people who followed your methods and what happened to them. Same for me, Ark, Sam Chin etc. It's all known.
We'll revisit it in years to come with all of us and all of them who do the work and those who kid themselves. I tend to separate out people who do the real work with master debaters.
See ya
Dan
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Old 08-10-2011, 10:47 AM   #40
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Yeah Marc.

I think what's happening here is that Mike wants to have a "purist's" conversation about what the "internal" is, whereas Dan is saying that all that crap won't help anybody in a fight.

Agree that they should not post in the same threads. Heh.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:05 AM   #41
DH
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Re: It's the same old story

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
This is why I suggested some ground rules in which Dan and Mike agree to NOT reference the other person in any manner, shape or form. I frankly cannot understand why Jun does not make this standard operating procedure.....
Marc Abrams
Quote:
Lorel writes:
Yeah Marc.
I think what's happening here is that Mike wants to have a "purist's" conversation about what the "internal" is, whereas Dan is saying that all that crap won't help anybody in a fight.
Agree that they should not post in the same threads. Heh.
Mike consistently starts threads attacking me or what I teach, they get deleted sometimes.
Within other threads Mike consistently starts attacks and swipes at me and anyone who trains with me (lap dogs, cults, experts now, etc.)

The real question is......why is this allowed here?

Find me where I do the same?
I remain defensive.
Frankly, I am sick and tired of being considered the same.

Lorel
If you think Mike is offering the one pure and correct view of internal you are in for some big surprises later?
And all I am talking about is fighting and not internal?
God speed. I wish you luck with that.

Don't worry about this thread
See ya
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-10-2011 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:18 AM   #42
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

I am unsure why Mike is allowed to get away with direct personal insults (calling me a lap dog) either.
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:29 AM   #43
Mike Sigman
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Well, Dan and his followers just ruined another thread by piling on. I'll start another to pick up where I left off on the discussion of jin and spiralling.

Every factual thing I've said in the thread can be supported by both physics and by comments from actual masters in internal martial arts. Grounding, pushing, etc., are as I described them and has been acknowledged by different experts, including comments about what some of the students who've been to workshops are doing (one of these comments to a woman in Germany by one of the Four Tigers of Chen Village). So none of this can be shoved off as just my opinion.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:29 AM   #44
Keith Larman
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Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?

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Alex Borghgraef wrote: View Post
Ok, I have an actual physics degree, so let me comment on this.
Leaving the rest aside, thanks for the post. I enjoyed it. Food for thought...

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Old 08-10-2011, 11:33 AM   #45
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
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Re: It's the same old story

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Mike consistently starts threads attacking me or what I teach, they get deleted sometimes.
Within other threads Mike consistently starts attacks and swipes at me and anyone who trains with me (lap dogs, cults, experts now, etc.)

The real question is......why is this allowed here?

Find me where I do the same?
I remain defensive.
Frankly, I am sick and tired of being considered the same.

Lorel
If you think Mike is offering the one pure and correct view of internal you are in for some big surprises later?
And all I am talking about is fighting and not internal?
God speed. I wish you luck with that.

Don't worry about this thread
See ya
Dan
Dan, I never said that. I said Mike WANTS to have a PURIST conversation about the "internal". On the surface at least, he does. I'm not gonna comment about what lies beneath the surface.

What I got was that some of the stuff that "internal guys" do is tactically unsound. I forgot to add that you are trying to tell Mike that you are doing someting he is not aware of...and that because he is trying to have a discussion about the internal in his own parameters (which he, as you mention, does not define), you cannot have a word in about what the "dual spirals" are.

Thats why I agree with Marc that both of you should just ignore each other.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 08-10-2011, 03:23 PM   #46
Hareksu
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Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hello, "Iskander":

That's in agreement with what I said.

Well, you're introducing the undefined term "internal" into the discussion. Can you tell us what makes a force "internal" or not, in the way that you're using it?
Yeah, I brought that on myself, eh... Well, call it connected whole body force driven by some form of shenfa. Don't want to exclude any interesting mechanisms out of 'big 3' puritanism. Not really relevant to the discussion though...

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
OK, could you clarify your assertion about how you transfer forces? The original question was only about whether there is a linear force from the dantien to the opponent.
First of all, you add force vectors, you get a force vectors, and vectors are by definition linear. So the entire 'linear force' schtick is both as true as 1=1, and equally useless. Secondly, when resisting a push, if the forces along the path through the body are uniformly distributed, the summed force between dantian and hand will coincide with a line between them. But this goes for any point along the path, be it the foot or the shoulder, so that's not what makes dantian special. Also, since the body is not uniform (chain of hinges remember), uniform distribution is only an approximation, something to strive for. Finally, there is no guarantee that equally distributed force is the only solution leading to this dantian-hand force vector, probably plenty of ways of doing it wrong using local force. Which is what I said to you earlier, and probably (though I won't speak for him) what Dan's saying in his criticism of your "just relax" admonition. Too vague, too many ways of doing it wrong while deluding yourself you're doing it right.

Regarding spirals, I'm sure you're capable of finding spirals in human movement (after all, you've mentioned them yourself), but they're not really relevant to the scope of my point.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
P.S. BTW.... why don't you clarify for people your relationship to me over the years?
Aaaaaaand now he gets personal... Why do I bother?
My relationship to you? Why, I'm your arch-nemesis obviously, twirling my mustache while plotting your downfall in the shadows, jealously scheming to steal your 733+ skillz and cursing you each time you escape my evil machinations! You know, like everyone else you've ever encountered
Oh, and by the way, if you're trying to be clever about internet nicknames, try and get the spelling right...
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Old 08-10-2011, 03:37 PM   #47
Mike Sigman
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Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?

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Alex Borghgraef wrote: View Post
Yeah, I brought that on myself, eh... Well, call it connected whole body force driven by some form of shenfa. Don't want to exclude any interesting mechanisms out of 'big 3' puritanism. Not really relevant to the discussion though...
Thanks. However that's vague enough that I question(ed) the premise of "internal" with which you start your discussion. "Whole body", someone might also pipe up, what's *not* whole body? You see my point..... "internal", what's that? Etc.
Quote:
First of all, you add force vectors, you get a force vectors, and vectors are by definition linear. So the entire 'linear force' schtick is both as true as 1=1, and equally useless.
Like the "internal" schtick?
Quote:

Secondly, when resisting a push, if the forces along the path through the body are uniformly distributed, the summed force between dantian and hand will coincide with a line between them. But this goes for any point along the path, be it the foot or the shoulder, so that's not what makes dantian special.
That's a good point. I agree to some extent, except that I'd note that the dantien is at/near the center of mass of the body and it's on the receiving end of the legs' connection to the ground. I.e., it is not just a point on a line.

If we got into dynamics of the dantien, then I'd note that the dantien is much more than just a point on the line, but we weren't discussing dynamics.
Quote:

Also, since the body is not uniform (chain of hinges remember), uniform distribution is only an approximation, something to strive for. Finally, there is no guarantee that equally distributed force is the only solution leading to this dantian-hand force vector, probably plenty of ways of doing it wrong using local force. Which is what I said to you earlier, and probably (though I won't speak for him) what Dan's saying in his criticism of your "just relax" admonition. Too vague, too many ways of doing it wrong while deluding yourself you're doing it right.

Regarding spirals, I'm sure you're capable of finding spirals in human movement (after all, you've mentioned them yourself), but they're not really relevant to the scope of my point.
So you don't have a real counterpoint, just a sort of picking at the edge of 'vagueness'? The spirals thing I dealt with in another post earlier today. I think the veil is lifted for a number of people.
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My relationship to you?
Sort of like Justin Smith and Stan Baker. Very similar... except they always signed their names.

Mike Sigman
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