Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-09-2011, 04:23 PM   #1
Scott Harrington
Location: Wilmington, De
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 66
United_States
Offline
Largest Hidden in Plain Sight Spiral Ever

One of my beliefs is that the history of Daito ryu and Aikido is dependent on its ‘birthing' and upbringing. Certainly Ueshiba's worldview (and phraseology describing Aikido) derived much from his Ōmoto-kyō beliefs.

A similar situation resolves around Takeda Sokau's life in the Aizu Wakamatsu region. The Aizu clan had strict codes of behavior and military training. This codification surely also extended into religious beliefs and customs.

While little has been found regarding Daito ryu and Aizu roots, it has been stated that Saigo Tanomo (a VERY high ranking Aizu councilor) was the conduit to teach Takeda Sokaku. After the breakup of the Aizu region he entered into Buddhist service in a shrine / temple to live out the rest of his life.



Well, with all the talk about spirals and their influence in ‘internal arts' I can only say," WHAT the H*** influence could this temple have had?"

Known as Sazaedo Hall, constructed in 1796 in the Aizu Wakamatsu region, this unique structure was designed using a double helical structure, so that one entering could ascend to the top and without breaking path, continue downward without retracing your steps. Various alcoves in the wooden structure held Buddhist icons (all lost in time) for special reverence.

I could easily see Saigo Tanomo taking Takeda Sokaku to Sazaedo Hall and as they began the circular climb, and begin to show how this structure could be incorporated into a ‘body structure' allowing one to be rooted to the heavens and the earth in a continuous, flowing pattern. Just imagine, anyone touching a rotating spiral is immediately deflected around without disturbing the center core. Using breathing techniques and exercises, one could internalize this to enhance martial techniques. Kind of like aiki, ne?

A stretch? Surely World War II veterans sent off on ships from New York City, passing the Statue of Liberty realized better what their combat service was protecting as they entered into harm's way.

The Entsu Sanso do (formal name), nickname based on the spiral shaped marine snail has been restored and there are even 3d diagrams available online to better get an eye on how this unique structure was designed and built.
Here is a you tube link of a tour thru it, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbsIFksqZus .

I do not know exactly how this may have been used as a teaching aid but certainly a different take on the spiraling issue on discussion.

Scott Harrington
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2011, 04:54 PM   #2
Walker
 
Walker's Avatar
Dojo: 光道館・叢雲道場
Location: Pacific Wonderland
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 219
United_States
Offline
Re: Largest Hidden in Plain Sight Spiral Ever

Cool building.

Saigo Tonomo/Hoshina Chikanori was a guuji - shinto priest, not buddhist...

(not that they're all that different, they were separated in 1886)

-Doug Walker
光道館・叢雲道場
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2011, 05:11 PM   #3
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,939
Offline
Re: Largest Hidden in Plain Sight Spiral Ever

Very cool building! But {wicked grin} which came first: conceptual importance of spiral or the building?

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2011, 10:09 PM   #4
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 693
Offline
Re: Largest Hidden in Plain Sight Spiral Ever

Kind of reminds me of this pic (dual spiral sculpture)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 12:54 AM   #5
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 537
Australia
Offline
Re: Largest Hidden in Plain Sight Spiral Ever

It's definitely a very cool building. I visited it a few years ago, and it is more impressive in person than in the photograph.

As for any connection with Takeda, it's all conjecture at this stage, but you never know.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 11:01 AM   #6
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 530
United_States
Offline
Re: Largest Hidden in Plain Sight Spiral Ever

http://harmoniouspalette.com/poizZframeE.gif
Click image for larger version

Name:	poizZframeE.gif
Views:	30
Size:	9.3 KB
ID:	901

Imagine a circle with a single twist. Imagine taking hold and moving the circle in the manner of a conveyor belt. From a fixed view point the belt appears to be moving forward and backward in perfectly equal measure. Now twist the circle a couple more times. The spirals become more visually pronounced and the conveyor belt continues to operate in the same manner. Where is the beginning? Where is the end?

Shingon Mikkyo has a term "Nyuga Ganyu," "entering into, being entered into." The above image is a pretty good visual description of Nyuga Ganyu. From one perspective the balance is absolute. It is singular. (The circle) From another perspective it is relative "+ & -" "entering into, being entered into" "in/yo, yin/yang".

From the absolute perspective time makes little sense. From a relative perspective time makes sense (past/future) and a spiral can appear proceeding and receding in equal measure.

From here all hell breaks loose!

In Shingon, there is also a Heaven/Earth/Man conception as well. Probably the easiest place to see that is in the floral arrangements of the Sagago Ryu school of Ikebana.

All over simplified and FWIW. (How does one over simplify a singularity?)

Very cool BTW. I don't recall this from my trips to Aizu. Thanks for posting and for the YouTube link.

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 11:10 AM   #7
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 530
United_States
Offline
Re: Largest Hidden in Plain Sight Spiral Ever

Saga Goryu Ikebana

http://www.mayukominami.com/saga.html

Heaven/Earth/Man in brief. (btw it may be a secret so don't tell anybody! )

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 01:51 PM   #8
Scott Harrington
Location: Wilmington, De
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 66
United_States
Offline
Re: Largest Hidden in Plain Sight Spiral Ever

Drifiting into some spooky waters here with the Shingon references. A friend and I had a nice visit several years ago at the Shingon Temple in L.A.

The head priestess, who treated us very nicely, was of advanced age and had a severe case of dowager's hump due to osteoporosis. I have often wanted to go up there and see the fire ceremony - pyrotechnics!!!!

Here is a visual image connected to 'interfacing' with the buddha.

"This is some really esoteric s***, man! Like far out." One can imagine Ueshiba being greatly influenced (having previous exposure) by shingon drills once he had been taught IP / Aiki.

What a strange mix, though Takeda Sokaku had similar run-ins. He just seemed to be more level-headed about it. Yeah, it works, look how I can throw you down whenever I want with it.

Getting away from spirals, but interesting.

Scott Harrington
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	with buddha smaller.jpg
Views:	93
Size:	47.1 KB
ID:	902  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 02:12 PM   #9
Howard Popkin
Dojo: Popkin-Brogna 大東流合気柔術銀柔会
Location: Long Island, NY
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 641
United_States
Offline
Re: Largest Hidden in Plain Sight Spiral Ever

Hey Al,

You know anything about shingon ?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 03:01 PM   #10
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 530
United_States
Offline
Re: Largest Hidden in Plain Sight Spiral Ever

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Hey Al,

You know anything about shingon ?
Enough to know better than to take myself too seriously!

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 06:07 PM   #11
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,499
United_States
Offline
Re: Largest Hidden in Plain Sight Spiral Ever

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
http://harmoniouspalette.com/poizZframeE.gif
Attachment 901
Imagine a circle with a single twist. Imagine taking hold and moving the circle in the manner of a conveyor belt. From a fixed view point the belt appears to be moving forward and backward in perfectly equal measure. Now twist the circle a couple more times. The spirals become more visually pronounced and the conveyor belt continues to operate in the same manner. Where is the beginning? Where is the end?
.... From a relative perspective time makes sense (past/future) and a spiral can appear proceeding and receding in equal measure.
Excellent. Now. Think 3d. Think tubular balloons. Think of the kinks that form when you twist them. Think of spiral stresses (compression v. tension) rather than movement in proceeding v. receding .

The balloon is just a deformed sphere (as is the human body -- though some are more spherical than others ). Twist the balloon and a kink occurs -- and you get two deformed spheres. More twists and more kinks and you get a chain of spheres -- like balloon animals -- which can all be reunified into one spherical structure -- or that can resume chainlike behavior -- instantaneously, or progressively, either way.

"Spherical rotations," as Dosshu described things, maybe not far off..

Last edited by Erick Mead : 08-10-2011 at 06:16 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 08:13 PM   #12
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 537
Australia
Offline
Re: Largest Hidden in Plain Sight Spiral Ever

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post

Very cool BTW. I don't recall this from my trips to Aizu. Thanks for posting and for the YouTube link.
It's at Iimoriyama, near the Byakkotai memorial.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 10:38 PM   #13
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 530
United_States
Offline
Re: Largest Hidden in Plain Sight Spiral Ever

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
It's at Iimoriyama, near the Byakkotai memorial.
Huh! I remember the Byakkotai memorial but not the cool spiraling pagoda. On the other hand, I shouldn't be too surprised that I can't remember. Today I ran across a journal I kept that dated from '86. I'm surprised at what I remembered and what I didn't. I don't remember being privy to the kind of information that I obviously was . . . I wrote it down! It is too bad I stopped writing! The other interesting thing is that almost everyone I wrote about is now dead!

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 11:21 PM   #14
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 537
Australia
Offline
Re: Largest Hidden in Plain Sight Spiral Ever

Wow, '86 was a long time ago.

I only moved away from Fukushima last year and I'm already forgetting lots of stuff. It's scary how little I remember.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2011, 11:24 AM   #15
jester
 
jester's Avatar
Location: Texas
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: Largest Hidden in Plain Sight Spiral Ever

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Excellent. Now. Think 3d. Think tubular balloons.

The balloon is just a deformed sphere (as is the human body -- though some are more spherical than others ). Twist the balloon and a kink occurs -- and you get two deformed spheres.
Speaking of Balloons and houses!!

-It seems to be all about semantics!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2011, 01:24 PM   #16
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 530
United_States
Offline
Re: Largest Hidden in Plain Sight Spiral Ever

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
Wow, '86 was a long time ago.

I only moved away from Fukushima last year and I'm already forgetting lots of stuff. It's scary how little I remember.
I remember '86 Ike it was yesterday . . . Or I remember yesterday as well as I do '86' which is a bit sad.

Anyway, it is all like a continuous spiral: the more things change, the more they stay the same. (except for my waistline which is more like the ever expanding perimeter of the universe! )

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion Ellis Amdur Supplies 80 12-08-2011 03:07 PM
Hidden in Plain Sight - Indeed! Ellis Amdur General 187 08-06-2011 06:20 AM
Hidden in plain sight page 115 ewolput General 10 09-12-2010 04:31 AM
Ellis Amdur's "Hidden in Plain Sight" Prepublication Sale AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 64 08-27-2009 01:15 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 10 Peter Goldsbury Columns 200 02-04-2009 06:45 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:01 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate