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Old 08-06-2011, 01:46 PM   #1
Mike Sigman
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What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
These two lines are particularly flawed.
"keep the elbows and forearms in that line from the waist in order to maximize the power flow
Actually, the strength is transmitted through the upper part of the forearm."'

[snip oblique shot]

While looking at this we can also examine how it ties in with the all too common specialty of the taiji one-legged-army and the back and forth movement and the erroneous ideas expressed in this dantien, elbow, and hand in a single line.
Here is another Chen Taiji Master class teacher:
"Forward and backward movement do not belong to Chen style. One small wrong movement and the posture is lost. At this time it is up to the spiral of the legs. The spiral of the leg uses on shun and one ni. The power of the hand and of the elbow is also forbidden to be double heavy (both expressing the same power)
And in the same passage:
At this time you must face forward, directly toward the opponent. The shoulder, elbow and hand, must use yin and yang. (expressing opposite power)

There is more to truly explain how this effect is so profound when force is applied to you, but I will just say that the legs, waist, hara, elbow and hand are moving in opposing spirals (always the union of opposites) and never in a line from dantien elbow to hand. That is low level understanding and Ueshiba didn't move that way either.

Morihei Ueshiba's own terminology on movement (now properly translated):
"Face your enemy and move with inside and outside spirals on opposite sides of the body
"The ways of stepping with the feet are outside-spirals and inside-spirals. This is taught in practice."
One of the difficulties in analysing what Ueshiba actually did for his training and application lies with the fact that he was aware/versed in the old Chinese classics, many of which have to do with vague descriptions of the things involved. In other words, one of the things that has to be looked at is whether the words match the original intent, when looking at Ueshiba's writings.

Dan's example of a Chen-style maxim is an example to consider: does the saying really discuss what Dan thinks it does and therefore prohibit forward and backward movement (there is an adjunctive saying about not going up or down, too)? Not really. This is where Shu Ha Ri comes in and the Chinese have more or less the same concept of Obvious, Hidden, and Mysterious. Not to belittle Dan, my point is that it's easy to use old sayings (as Ueshiba did), but the question is "does this really apply as originally meant?".

It turns out that even Okinawan karate (and most other arts, too) all refer to spiralings along the lines of the Ueshiba quote above. Are these the same kinds of spiraling used in the Chen-style Taijiquan? No, although there is a legitimate debate that at one time in the precursor arts of karate (and many other martial-arts) the same type of winding/spiraling was used and simply got lost over time. Because Ueshiba mentions the classical adage about spiraling doesn't necessarily mean that he thought of it and or did it in any way like the Chen-styles Reeling-Silk-Jin.

So the question is really more along the lines of "what did Ueshiba do, when and *how* did he do it, and where did he learn it?" There are related questions to be asked about what Tohei, Shioda, and others knew, when and how did they did it, where they learned it, and so on.

In my personal view there are some things that Ueshiba does (in terms of body movement) that are not quite the same as seen in Tohei, Shioda, any Daito Ryu guys on videos that I've seen, and so on. Over the years I've watched all the videos of Ueshiba (and many others, too, of course) and my impression is that Ueshiba actually used his dantien somewhat more than you'd think at first glance, but he used it in relation to pretty linear jin, not the winding jin. Among a number of reasons I could list, let me point out a couple:

There is no indication of winding training in any drill done by Ueshiba.

The winding jin doesn't work in closely held arms and a high stance. There is an old saying "qi does not go through a bent joing" and in this case they're talking about the aspect of qi that I refer to as "suit" as a way of differentiating what it is.

If someone makes a throw and ends up with one arm up and one arm down, one leg forward and one leg back, that does not mean that they are using "spiraling" power, since that type of posture is common and traditional through many martial arts. I had an Aikido teacher who did the same thing, BTW, and he had no internal-strength skills whatsoever; hence, it indicates not much.

One of the real questions I've had over the years is just what Ueshiba knew. I feel like I have a better grasp after years of reading and watching videos, but it's still difficult to speak with absolute surety in many cases. Does he use "reeling silk" though? Pretty definitely not, so Chen's Taiji is not a good comparison for that reason. Yang's Taiji that uses "Pulling Silk" is probably a much better comparison (of course they also claim to use "reeling", but they don't actually).

2 cents in order to start a rousing discussion. Disagree'ers please start with something like "I think you're wrong because...." as opposed to ad hominems, character assassination, and so forth.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-06-2011, 03:47 PM   #2
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

I was taught that there were no straight line in Aikido and that everything was a circle/spiral.

1-cent.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-06-2011, 03:58 PM   #3
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
I was taught that there were no straight line in Aikido and that everything was a circle/spiral.

1-cent.
Lynn, you're talking about application/techniques. I'm talking about basic movement within and prior to the consideration of application/techniques.

The whole point of movement like "reeling silk" is to train linear jin to all points within a movement. There are 4 basic directions of jin: Up, Down, Away from the body, Toward the body. What "winding" or "reeling silk" practice is supposed to do is imbue the linear jin infinitely throughout a movement, primarily. Secondarily it is used as one of the supplements to power generation, but there's more to that than is commonly known.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-06-2011, 05:14 PM   #4
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

I would love to see discussion regarding analysis of Ueshiba's movement, in relation to the concepts here. I may have something to add/ask about that, but first, there is one other thing I want to say besides that:

If we believe in aikido as something we make our own, something that is a path to travel rather than a place, then we could in a sense go beyond what O-sensei did as long as we are on the same path. Thus someone could do things a bit differently than Ueshiba, but still be working to further the same cause that he worked on. (One would have to defend that they are indeed working on the same cause, but that is a discussion on its own.)

In other words the cause defines "aikido" rather than the tools that one uses. So I am always asking myself, when I learn about something new, is this something that O-sensei was after? Is a method to continuously imbue every aspect of one's movement with the 'power' of heaven and earth relevant to aikido, even if Ueshiba himself had no teacher for that? If so, then that can be part of my aikido. (Anyway without a detailed compare/contrast there is no reason I would say definitively that Ueshiba did not learn a particular something. Just speaking generally.)

My point is to support the idea that seemingly foreign Chinese concepts are directly relevant to aikido as an art. I don't think O-sensei laid out something exclusive for us-- inclusion is the point. If someone can say I am right AND that O-sensei knew and practiced this kind of spiralling, then great that's even better!
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Old 08-06-2011, 05:25 PM   #5
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
My point is to support the idea that seemingly foreign Chinese concepts are directly relevant to aikido as an art. I don't think O-sensei laid out something exclusive for us-- inclusion is the point. If someone can say I am right AND that O-sensei knew and practiced this kind of spiralling, then great that's even better!
What's foreign about "Chinese concepts" to the Japanese? The weapons, swords, hair-styles, calligraphy (and kanji), the Kojiki is written in Chinese, the medical system of qi/ki, Hara/Dantien, ki and qi, manufacturing methods, food preferences, clothing trends, and many so-on's, all came from China. The "China had nothing to do with us" trend came in the late 1800's and most westerner martial-artists have been brain-washed into only seeing Japan and not Asian history as a whole. If you'll remember, just a few years ago, one of the current "experts" on Chinese martial-arts knew nothing about CMA's and was unsure that there were such things as "internal power" outside of Japan.

If you read Ueshiba's douka and some other writings, he justified Aikido in terms of the classical Chinese sayings and admonitions. He spoke of "intent", "ki", "hara", and so on. "Aiki" in kanji is easily understood by most proficient martial-artists in China. Discussion needs to avoid the China-Japan frictions and understand that there was a truly deep discussion about what is the most refined approach to martial-arts and the discussion was echoed around Asia and the Pacific Rim. Holding onto the "Japan" and "Aikido is unique" paradigms is fairly provincial in the light of all that has gone on in the last number of many centuries.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-06-2011, 08:59 PM   #6
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Tom Campbell wrote:

It's a curious concept, this status of "expert"--often self-designated, or self-aggrandized on the basis knowing something when most other people in a discussion are very new to the concepts or traditions being discussed, or assumed simply because the "expert" talks so much. Someone like that might write something like this:

http://http://www.aikiweb.com/forums...18&postcount=6
Can't find the page, Tom. Got a better URL?

Quote:

Tell me this, Mike. The pao chui "Cannon Fist" solo form is regarded as the "fighting" form of Chen taijiquan, emphasizing fajin, angles and footwork not found in the Yi Lu (first road) form. Would someone who never learned pao chui be appropriately regarded as an expert on Chen taijiquan?
Er, Pao Chui is not considered a "fighting form". It's the second routine, designed to train the more advanced trait of "body follows hands". I don't know who you're talking to as "never learned pao chui". Who are you talking about? Certainly not me.

Mike Sigman
P,S. Quit making posts and then deleting them in order to make a statement and not take responsibility.
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Old 08-06-2011, 09:42 PM   #7
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
I was taught that there were no straight line in Aikido and that everything was a circle/spiral.

1-cent.
I was taught the same but have realised the opposite.
2c

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Old 08-06-2011, 10:24 PM   #8
graham christian
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
I was taught that there were no straight line in Aikido and that everything was a circle/spiral.

1-cent.
I teach that there are all the natural pathways of energy. Thus there are straight lines, circles and spirals.

Regards.G.
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Old 08-06-2011, 11:06 PM   #9
Thomas Campbell
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Can't find the page, Tom. Got a better URL?

Er, Pao Chui is not considered a "fighting form". It's the second routine, designed to train the more advanced trait of "body follows hands". I don't know who you're talking to as "never learned pao chui". Who are you talking about? Certainly not me.

Mike Sigman
P,S. Quit making posts and then deleting them in order to make a statement and not take responsibility.
No . . . looks like the link is broken, Mike. That's a shame.

I'm not training Chen taijiquan. I'd been told by a number of Chen teachers that they regarded Pao Chui (Er Lu) as a "fighting form," building on the first routine Yi Lu but training both applications and attributes closer to the way the art would be used in combat. One of those teachers has not yet learned Pao Chui, though he talks quite a bit about Chen taijiquan.

Tom Campbell

P.S. Quit telling people whether they can delete a post they've written, whether for editing, rewriting or simply because they decided they don't want it up there. Last I recall this is Jun's forum, and I'll gladly accept his direction in that regard. I take responsibility for what I write here. If you don't like what I write, apologies in advance for any stress or loss of naptime it may cause you.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:30 AM   #10
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
I was taught the same but have realised the opposite.
2c
yes I agree, but have come back to the spirals again in a manner of speaking, that spirals are the combination of linear possibilities of ground path externally and internally the preloading and releasing of the muscle tendon complex.
0.0208 AUD

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Old 08-07-2011, 06:39 AM   #11
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

The basic concept in our dojo (basically a Tomiki dojo) is to create a a spherical balloon with your body. When the attack is coming you don't retreat but you absorb and turn. So you have to to bring the body frame backward and turn without bending or jumping away from the action. To apply a waza you can use a direct action or turn and use a rotational action. This method has a positive effect on our (tanto) randori. The attack in tanto randori is linear and is not interupted, but absorbed in the sperical balloon, the attacker has the feeling he can strike you but when the moment of impact is there, the bodyframe is gone without moving the body. The waza which we use looks very linear but has a flavor of a spiral. Shouldering, bending forward to block and all those muscular actions has to be avoid to create a powerful waza - in competition this is "ippon". Of course every match has to be done and maybe the opponent is also using similar methods.
In a paper of prof Shishida of the Waseda University and also a researcher on Ueshiba's prewar aikido, he wrote something about Ueshiba confronting powerfull judoka. Ueshiba never allowed those judoka to grasp him fully.
I tried to describe a simple action, but words cannot express the feeling about attacking and suddenly finding out the emptyness and the waza which bring you down without muscular arm/shoulderpower.

Just our way of training

Eddy
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Old 08-07-2011, 09:43 AM   #12
Thomas Campbell
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
yes I agree, but have come back to the spirals again in a manner of speaking, that spirals are the combination of linear possibilities of ground path externally and internally the preloading and releasing of the muscle tendon complex.
0.0208 AUD
Daniel--

For you, what does this statement translate into in terms of practical training?

For example, a circle is a "combination of linear possibilities" of infinitely small linear segments. It can be helpful in training to visualize return or deflection of a force in terms of a circle.

Also, with respect to the "preloading and releasing of the muscle tendon complex," to what extent is the fascial and connective tissue beyond the tendons involved with the "preloading and release" that you write of?

Thanks.
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Old 08-07-2011, 09:48 AM   #13
DH
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
.... in order to start a rousing discussion. Disagree'ers please start with something like "I think you're wrong because...." as opposed to ad hominems, character assassination, and so forth.
Mike Sigman
There is nothing to debate. You've presented no credible argument to refute the points in the text. Instead you attacked the points by casting doubts on the presenter's presumed lack of understanding of the text instead of offering any rebuttal of the text.. Once again surreptitiously attacking the poster while asking others not to attack you.
Did you really think you were fooling anyone?

Anyway, then, you went on to tell us that
1. The Yang family arts don't understand their own arts energy,
2. Aikido-ka don't understand Ueshiba,
3. Aikido-ka who also train taiji don't understand either,
4. Daito ryu people who also study taiji don't understand either
5. Karate people who study both arts and Daito ryu don't understand their own arts.
6.And here....only you understand spiral energy.

Try making an argument.
With your counter, you've taken on the role of claiming complete understanding of Karate, Aikido, Daito ryu and two styles of Taiji in order to debate their theory.
I have read nothing of substance from you to discuss here, other than you making yet another bid to claim a superior understanding witthout actually doing so.
Dan

.
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Old 08-07-2011, 09:51 AM   #14
Janet Rosen
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Interesting thread...a couple of random thoughts...

Eddy, I think you expressed yourself very well and while I have no experience visiting Tomiki dojos, very much agree with the essence of what you describe: that tenkan or turning is not a retreat or backward movement, but essentially a different form of entry.

In terms of linear/spiral...in waza at least, which I understand is NOT how Mike the OP is discussing spirals....I am reminded of how I make circles when drafting a circular skirt pattern: from a point, draw a straight line as many inches as I need. From the same point, draw a straight line at a 90 degree angle to the first one, same number of inches long. Make the third line halfway in between them. Continue making straight lines, ever closer to each other, until there are about a dozen of them. Connect the endpoints of the straight lines: a lovely half circle.
In waza to me this relates to the fact that a seemingly arced cut results from a straight cut done while the body turns.

Mike, could you possibly provide a video link to one of the tai chi vids that you think DOES show spirals? Might be helpful for folks to see which does/not.

Janet Rosen
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Old 08-07-2011, 10:51 AM   #15
ewolput
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Spiral movement is aikido is according to many a major element in performing well your waza. If we see in someone other his garden we can find similar ideas.
Alexander technique for Tennis :
The Key to Power: Spiral Movement
Spiral movement is the secret to accessing enormous untapped power in your strokes. More specifically, two spiral movements, one done in the preparation phase of the stroke and the other done in the forward swing of the stroke, are the key.
Spiral movement is defined as a three-dimensional curve in space around a central axis. A spiral elongates as it turns so it has a built-in expansive quality to it. Spiral movement is a type of movement we naturally and frequently perform throughout the day.
For example, when our hand reaches for a door handle or to shake another's hand we naturally make a spiral movement with our body and the entire torso rotates around our spine. Another example is the spiral movement of our body when we roll over on the floor or in bed. Walking and running are dominated by spiral movements. Not only do you see this spiral movement in our actions, but also in the body itself. Most of our bones are curved and many of our muscles spiral around our body.

Of course this is not martial art but it is interesting to read and try to understand.
http://tenniswithouttension.com/article2.html

BTW we are not fighting with rackets

Eddy
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Old 08-07-2011, 11:13 AM   #16
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Smile Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Lynn, you're talking about application/techniques. I'm talking about basic movement within and prior to the consideration of application/techniques.

The whole point of movement like "reeling silk" is to train linear jin to all points within a movement. There are 4 basic directions of jin: Up, Down, Away from the body, Toward the body. What "winding" or "reeling silk" practice is supposed to do is imbue the linear jin infinitely throughout a movement, primarily. Secondarily it is used as one of the supplements to power generation, but there's more to that than is commonly known.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Dear Mike,
One of the problems I have when I read this type of blog is the vocabulary used .What I mean is that in some cases the 'vocabulary 'is Chinese related terms.Now as an aikidoka I can use the general Japanese terminology to discuss issues and concepts.
The fact that you rarely if ever state what eg reeling silk , jin is in
terms that I can relate to, is the problem for me.
With no pun intended you might as well be talking Chinese .
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 08-07-2011, 11:27 AM   #17
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
There is nothing to debate. You've presented no credible argument to refute the points in the text. Instead you attacked the points by casting doubts on the presenter's presumed lack of understanding of the text instead of offering any rebuttal of the text.. Once again surreptitiously attacking the poster while asking others not to attack you.
Did you really think you were fooling anyone?

Anyway, then, you went on to tell us that
1. The Yang family arts don't understand their own arts energy,
2. Aikido-ka don't understand Ueshiba,
3. Aikido-ka who also train taiji don't understand either,
4. Daito ryu people who also study taiji don't understand either
5. Karate people who study both arts and Daito ryu don't understand their own arts.
6.And here....only you understand spiral energy.

Try making an argument.
With your counter, you've taken on the role of claiming complete understanding of Karate, Aikido, Daito ryu and two styles of Taiji in order to debate their theory.
I have read nothing of substance from you to discuss here, other than you making yet another bid to claim a superior understanding witthout actually doing so.
Dan

.
Dear Dan,
Do I detect a bit of animosity in your blog?
Joe.
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Old 08-07-2011, 11:42 AM   #18
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

This kind:



And also, this kind:


Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-07-2011, 11:54 AM   #19
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Although from a Chinese martial artisist this article explains (in plain English ) a spiraling motion created by the knees and directed to rotate the torso ( dantien ) by the ball joints on top of the femurs ( kua ).

" Kua is the joint responsible for transmission of power. The mistaken notion of dantian acting as the transmission should be amended, to recognize the primary role of kua. The dantian, ( in Tai Chi functional terms, not qigong usage), is defined as the area between the kua and the arm pit. This is one big ball. When this area turns you wont see the kua turn. On surface, you only see the area from kua to arm pit turn. Therefor many people practice shoulder movement, turning dantian from the top. We must emphasize turning of the dantian from the bottom.

" The critical element is the action of upper body in relation with lower body. The trunk must be set in a fixed position and cannot move independently. It can only rotate, or adjust to the action of the legs. Action of the legs must be on the knees. When the knee moves, energy is propelled both ways. One portion goes to the feet right through the ground, the other portion into the kua in directing the trunk. That is the proper action. "

http://internalartsia.wordpress.com/...ge-of-the-kua/

dps

Last edited by dps : 08-07-2011 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 08-07-2011, 12:55 PM   #20
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Funny almost every Martial Art I've practiced or experienced emphasizes "spiral" movement as a source of "power" and if there is a question about it's more along the lines of the dilution of experience as to how and why "spiral" equates to power in your practice. That the only issue I see.

Sorry to answer a question with a question but why would anyone think Aikido doesn't have spiraling power other there are just not that many folks around these days who understand it, express it in their practice, and are articulate enough to teach it?

William Hazen
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:16 PM   #21
DH
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Dan,
Do I detect a bit of animosity in your blog?
Joe.
Animosity? No, accuracy, yes.
Read what he wrote.
Some people are pontificating about things they have only read about and cannot really do or understand. Others claim (and are fooling quite a few people) a deeper understanding that their movement just does not support.
In the end actual skills, actually do matter. So I am very relucted to waste my time debating internet personalities who have never delivered with real skills demonstrated across the board under pressure. It's all 'internal" and "aiki"... theory, and words are all they've got and what they count on. It's a waste of my time.

In person, it's surprising how many theories don't pan out so well and also how it has a pronounced tendency to forge friendships instead of animosity.
Dan
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:05 PM   #22
stan baker
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Hi William
Modern Aikido has external spiraling but is lacking in understanding of
internal whole body spiraling. You can feel the difference instantly.

stan
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Old 08-07-2011, 08:03 PM   #23
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

hi Thomas thanks for the feedback..thoughts below
Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
Daniel--

For you, what does this statement translate into in terms of practical training?
I think for me as a deductive kind of person it gives confidence to the traditions of the art, a viewpoint to reinterpret what I have been doing and perhaps a way to sort the wheat from the chaff. Its helped enormously in being able to critically evaluate the kata of aikido (as nage and uke), ki testing from my early days and all of a sudden be able to stop something like nikkyo effortlessly from seniors was an eye opener that IS and similar approaches have got something going on

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
For example, a circle is a "combination of linear possibilities" of infinitely small linear segments. It can be helpful in training to visualize return or deflection of a force in terms of a circle.
Yeah I think i'd agree with that, though what i am personally doing is looking mostly at static stuff for now so mostly the first segment and hopefully can generalise from there as to what is best way to move etc..

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Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
Also, with respect to the "preloading and releasing of the muscle tendon complex," to what extent is the fascial and connective tissue beyond the tendons involved with the "preloading and release" that you write of?
From what I understand of fascia simplistically as covers over the muscles and tendons they could be considered as a passive/ active 'skin suit' that improves the efficiency of muscles/tendons and maybe make a contribution in their own right. For now I am happy to bundle them all into the same basket to reduce variables which can get in the way of a pretty basic understanding. Mind you judging form conversations, others (probably you?) are considerably further down this road so I just tend to butt out a bit

dan

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Old 08-07-2011, 08:17 PM   #24
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
There is nothing to debate. You've presented no credible argument to refute the points in the text. Instead you attacked the points by casting doubts on the presenter's presumed lack of understanding of the text instead of offering any rebuttal of the text.. Once again surreptitiously attacking the poster while asking others not to attack you.
Did you really think you were fooling anyone?

Anyway, then, you went on to tell us that
1. The Yang family arts don't understand their own arts energy,
2. Aikido-ka don't understand Ueshiba,
3. Aikido-ka who also train taiji don't understand either,
4. Daito ryu people who also study taiji don't understand either
5. Karate people who study both arts and Daito ryu don't understand their own arts.
6.And here....only you understand spiral energy.

Try making an argument.
With your counter, you've taken on the role of claiming complete understanding of Karate, Aikido, Daito ryu and two styles of Taiji in order to debate their theory.
I have read nothing of substance from you to discuss here, other than you making yet another bid to claim a superior understanding witthout actually doing so.
Dan

.
Dan, I'm not claiming anything that's not backed up and supported by classical literature and many experts. You've made up some "system" while at the same time cobbling in buzzwords from all over the place.

You know it. I know it. You know I know it. Desperate attempts to tear down my character and reputation only show the sort of person you are.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-07-2011, 08:20 PM   #25
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
The fact that you rarely if ever state what eg reeling silk , jin is in
terms that I can relate to, is the problem for me.
I think you're probably right, Joe. In years past I spent a great deal of time explaining things in very detailed ways, posting diagrams, and so on.... on this forum and others. There just comes a time when it's hard to work up the initiative to repeat efforts that have been made numerous times in the past.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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