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Old 08-04-2011, 01:28 PM   #51
jonreading
 
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Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: teaching the blind

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Jon. Yes I am advocating no additional risks or burdens.

I would equate it with any new member entering the dojo so if by numbers that equals an added risk or burden then mathematically that would be so but I say this for a different reason.

Firstly the disadvantage should be taken responsibility for ie: a blind person may need to orient himself with the surroundings first etc. Thereafter treated with the same respect as everyone else, no difference.

Secondly I don't hold to this people hitting each other with bokkens and falling into each other all the time or even on numerous occasions. When I witness this I am witnessing an ill disciplined dojo.

Knocks happen in martial arts, if you can't handle it then leave, that's the general rule and so I don't think they would appreciate people regarding them as a burden or risk. You mentioned pc? Thinking they could be a burden or risk is very pc wouldn't you say?

As I said before Martial arts teaches people they CAN. PC do gooders teach why they can't.

Regards.G.
Hey Graham, I think we have to be talking past each other. In this most recent post you reaffirm there are no additional burdens or risks in the dojo, then acknowledge there are risks and burdens. Incidentally, I agree with you that new students also present increased risk in a dojo.

I do not think a dojo in which accidents happen would ill disciplined. Sometimes accidents happen. You can blame whomever, but it happens. I do not want to communicate that we should ignore risk, I want to communicate that we should be aware of risk and undertake it of informed consent.

Finally, I am not sure where the PC thing is going. In the United States, political correctness is a social pressure tool of progressivism. Liberally speaking, the very nature of the concept is to apply social pressure to progress a concept from a point of exclusion to a point of inclusion (or acceptance). In fact, I believe that is part of the tension in teaching disabled students - there is a social pressure to include them because they are disabled, to make a decision to move past their disability and include them in the dojo. I am not sure how your statement matches that definition. More specifically, I would argue that advocating blind people carry additional burdens in society is very un-PC - the very nature of PC would be to move past their disability. (Let it be known I have rarely been called politically correct.)

Although you bring up a great point about realizing a student is a burden within his dojo. I think many students do not like thinking they are a burden in a dojo. How many students have thought, "Man, I wish I could take sutemi so I could train harder." Or, "I don't train with black belts because I am not good enough to give them a workout." Or, "My leg hurts, I won't be a good uke." I think it is natural for us to desire to carry our own weight; I don't think that observation is specific to blind people. What about the deadbeat student who doesn't pay his dues? or the lazy student who doesn't help clean the mats? I do not mind students who carry with them a sense of obligation and duty to carry their weight. The solution for blind students is to give them other opportunities to carry their weight and contribute to the dojo. Again, some dojo are better equipped than others to accommodate blind students. That's why I advocate the choice should remain with the dojo.

Last edited by jonreading : 08-04-2011 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 08-04-2011, 01:29 PM   #52
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: teaching the blind

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Tim.
I don]t get what putting someone in harms way means. The student is in harms way in a martial art.
Regards.G.
Yeah. I just read that part back and it reads weird.
Let me try to explain by an example. Let us say a student has a wrist injury and we practise aihanmi nikkyo. This could be bad for a 'normal healthy' wrist, but an already injured wrist might be permanently damaged.
When I would intentionally execute the technique at normal speed, disgarding aite's injury and something would indeed happen to the wrist (break it, tear tendons) I would be liable. I clearly disregarded the known injury and put aite in unnecessary real danger. This is not what Aikido practise is about.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 08-04-2011, 03:09 PM   #53
genin
Location: southwest
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Re: teaching the blind

I think that a student, if he was willing to do so, could be assigned to assist the blind student during class. That way Sempai and Sensei don't have to continually take time aside to coach the blind student themselves, which could detract from the lesson the rest of the class is receiving. We did that with the deaf guy in our dojo years ago. It's also the same thing we did with most new people. You pair them up with another student, not just to practice techniques, but so that student can sort of instruct them on the nuances of dojo training. In the case of a blind person, they'd always be paired with someone in order to insure that the blind person is safe and doing things properly.

I do think that a blind person should be able to train if they really want to AND if the dojo personel agree to allow them too. However, we can realistically say that their training would need to be different, or augmented to a degree. Maybe a little slower and more hands on. And that's fine, but that extra attention shouldn't detract from the quality and intensity of training that all the other students are paying to receive. It's all about trying to be acommodating to everyone in the dojo.
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Old 08-04-2011, 06:12 PM   #54
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
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Re: teaching the blind

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Hey Graham, I think we have to be talking past each other. In this most recent post you reaffirm there are no additional burdens or risks in the dojo, then acknowledge there are risks and burdens. Incidentally, I agree with you that new students also present increased risk in a dojo.

I do not think a dojo in which accidents happen would ill disciplined. Sometimes accidents happen. You can blame whomever, but it happens. I do not want to communicate that we should ignore risk, I want to communicate that we should be aware of risk and undertake it of informed consent.

Finally, I am not sure where the PC thing is going. In the United States, political correctness is a social pressure tool of progressivism. Liberally speaking, the very nature of the concept is to apply social pressure to progress a concept from a point of exclusion to a point of inclusion (or acceptance). In fact, I believe that is part of the tension in teaching disabled students - there is a social pressure to include them because they are disabled, to make a decision to move past their disability and include them in the dojo. I am not sure how your statement matches that definition. More specifically, I would argue that advocating blind people carry additional burdens in society is very un-PC - the very nature of PC would be to move past their disability. (Let it be known I have rarely been called politically correct.)

Although you bring up a great point about realizing a student is a burden within his dojo. I think many students do not like thinking they are a burden in a dojo. How many students have thought, "Man, I wish I could take sutemi so I could train harder." Or, "I don't train with black belts because I am not good enough to give them a workout." Or, "My leg hurts, I won't be a good uke." I think it is natural for us to desire to carry our own weight; I don't think that observation is specific to blind people. What about the deadbeat student who doesn't pay his dues? or the lazy student who doesn't help clean the mats? I do not mind students who carry with them a sense of obligation and duty to carry their weight. The solution for blind students is to give them other opportunities to carry their weight and contribute to the dojo. Again, some dojo are better equipped than others to accommodate blind students. That's why I advocate the choice should remain with the dojo.
Hi Jon.
I think your right, we are talking past each other somehow.
I do not say anyone is a burden or risk in actuality. When I mention that I am referring to how others see it. What I am saying is that it's a viewpoint. It's a burden only if you create it as such.

It's a risk only if you don't have the necessary responsibility needed. To me it's a pleasure.

Students and teachers even do no doubt look at things as burdens and not wanting to be a burden etc. but to me this is irresponsible thinking. It's actually arrogant and selfish really.
It's all backwards. There's enough people willing to try and make you feel you are a burden and there are enough people considering they are a burden. Now in the world of selfishness that would make sense. It's all put downs and control mixed with false sympathy.

Not in my world thank God.

Thinking of things in terms of burden is the road to misery as far as I'm concerned.

Regards.G.
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Old 08-04-2011, 06:20 PM   #55
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
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Re: teaching the blind

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Yeah. I just read that part back and it reads weird.
Let me try to explain by an example. Let us say a student has a wrist injury and we practise aihanmi nikkyo. This could be bad for a 'normal healthy' wrist, but an already injured wrist might be permanently damaged.
When I would intentionally execute the technique at normal speed, disgarding aite's injury and something would indeed happen to the wrist (break it, tear tendons) I would be liable. I clearly disregarded the known injury and put aite in unnecessary real danger. This is not what Aikido practise is about.
Still don't see that as an example of putting in harms way. I see that as acting irresponsibly. Why do Nikkyo on someone with a bad wrist?
That's not putting them in harms way that's blatantly being inconsiderate and brutal and betraying the students trust.

Regards.G.
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Old 08-05-2011, 12:56 AM   #56
Tim Ruijs
 
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Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
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Re: teaching the blind

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Still don't see that as an example of putting in harms way. I see that as acting irresponsibly. Why do Nikkyo on someone with a bad wrist?
That's not putting them in harms way that's blatantly being inconsiderate and brutal and betraying the students trust.
Regards.G.
It is probably my bad english. I understand that to put one in harms way means that that person is liable to get injured in a certain scenario. Said person had better known what to do to get back to safety (or safer situation). In Aikido this is no different, but for the fact that you are never (intentionally) in real danger.
With this understanding I think in Aikido you are never really in danger, but when injured you might be. So yes you certainly act irresponsibly when you put aite in danger by disregarding his injury and 'put him in harms way'.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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