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Old 07-24-2011, 04:39 PM   #26
graham christian
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Re: Why move from the center?

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Hi Paul, if your answer can be summed up as "use your whole body and you will be stronger," then I can get behind that a bit. (Although, check out some of the other posts here regarding how there are different ways to do this.) But for my own practice, I am interested in aiki rather than being stronger.

Regarding hips.. I used to think highly of using hips to do things. I thought it was more "right" than using the shoulders. I've even been explicitly taught that.
Now, I see it differently. Who called the hips the "shoulders of the lower body?" Great point. And sounds like Lee's comments about Armsly and Legsly.
Jonathan.
How exactly do you see the 'hips' now in relation to what you do? What were they to you before?

This is a genuine question.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-24-2011, 04:54 PM   #27
Lee Salzman
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Re: Why move from the center?

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Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Hi Paul, if your answer can be summed up as "use your whole body and you will be stronger," then I can get behind that a bit. (Although, check out some of the other posts here regarding how there are different ways to do this.) But for my own practice, I am interested in aiki rather than being stronger.

Regarding hips.. I used to think highly of using hips to do things. I thought it was more "right" than using the shoulders. I've even been explicitly taught that.
Now, I see it differently. Who called the hips the "shoulders of the lower body?" Great point. And sounds like Lee's comments about Armsly and Legsly.
The question is, when a fellow aikidoka talks about using the hips, what do they mean? As far as I have seen, it seems to be something like this. But whereas those silly western muscle-heads, they seem to have some other idea about what the hip does. Then again, they also seem to have this silly idea that the shoulders can do likewise. So, aikidoka bashing stuff with the side of their hips and shoulders, and the weight-lifters are using them as bridges to transfer power out of the center, wherever it is between, who'da thunk?

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 07-24-2011 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 07-24-2011, 05:02 PM   #28
graham christian
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Re: Why move from the center?

What are the hips to you Lee?

Regards.G.
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Old 07-24-2011, 05:15 PM   #29
JW
 
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Re: Why move from the center?

Hi guys, a 2-parter here:
1
I was playing with ways I could have mis-interpreted things. Lots of ideas have been talked about over the years, including heaven referring to up and down and earth referring to horizontal. Then looking at Mike's newish blog post "Baseline Parameters," I thought of the idea of heaven referring to air pressure and earth referring to both grf and gravity. I don't think either of those interpretations is correct.
I also found an old judoforum post (number 46 here) where Mike explicitly defines Ki of Earth as ground and Ki of Heaven as gravity, along with this old post.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Roughly speaking, the strength from the ground goes through the bones (ki of Earth) and the "connective", "down-pulling" strength (ki of Heaven) goes through the fascia/ki arrangement (which is more complex than that simple statement implies).
Anyway just trying to narrow down any errors I may be spouting..

2.
Replies to Lee and Graham.
Lee, great photos I don't get the little picture of the muscle arm next to the aikido guys, but what that tsuki the guy is doing looks like one thing that people have said is "using the hips." And as you point out, it has to do not with lifting but with projecting forward. That is to say, the muscles that twist the hips are used (to twist the hips), while the arm/upper body is coupled to the hips. So that tsuki can be "from the hips." I've been shown it, and practiced it.

Graham, that is an example of what I used to think was good. That is, I didn't generate a tsuki from the shoulders, so I thought that was right. I also used to do shomen suburi like this too-- meaning, as the hip pivots with power, the sword is flung forward. But how about this. We train a lot in seiza. So I couldn't do suburi in seiza. I couldn't punch in seiza. I couldn't do anything. So that was one of the things several years ago that allowed me to think, "something isn't right."
But in the end who needs to do all that from seiza. That was a cue for me, but it wasn't the main reason to change. Long story short, I see both the hips and the shoulders as joints. They are points of articulation. They move. That is their job. Generating power is not their job. Power and connection has to make it through them, that is my point in studying them.

[edit: Lee! I liked the other "shoulders" photo!]

Last edited by JW : 07-24-2011 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 07-24-2011, 05:23 PM   #30
graham christian
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Re: Why move from the center?

Thanks for the explanation Jonathan. That's nice and clear. So without too much explanation, where do you generate power from now?

Regards.G.
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Old 07-24-2011, 05:28 PM   #31
Janet Rosen
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Re: Why move from the center?

I'm not Jonathan but I'll chime in...I've been in too many dojos and heard too many instructors/sempai use "hips" as synonymous with "center" and so in fact I came to understand them that way too...but they are not the same.
Since my knee does not permit me to sit in seiza, my practice of kokyudosa has to be done cross-legged. There is no possibility of hip movement. But it offers lots of opportunity to explore moving my center - up, down, forward to irimi, to one side or another.

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-24-2011, 05:34 PM   #32
graham christian
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Re: Why move from the center?

Thanks Janet. That's clear.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-24-2011, 05:45 PM   #33
JW
 
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Re: Why move from the center?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Thanks for the explanation Jonathan. That's nice and clear. So without too much explanation, where do you generate power from now?

Regards.G.
I don't. I'm totally weak now!

Just kidding. Kind of.
I am exploring now. What I do now is to "generate" power from a central bubble in the middle of my body-- it is distinctly above my hips, but distinctly below my chest. I put generate in quotes because I am tempted to say I borrow rather than generate..borrow from my body weight and from my stacked posture. Everything is constantly transmitted from the periphery into the center to be worked with, which then causes changes back in the periphery.
Anyway regarding hips-- let's say my "self" is in the hara, then my "self" reaches through the hips to move the legs. Same thing up top, I reach up to support or suck in (as needed) my chest and shoulders from below.
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Old 07-24-2011, 06:02 PM   #34
graham christian
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Re: Why move from the center?

Thanks Jonathan. That's clear also. Very good. Once again the area of Hara even if different folks may use it or explain it differently.

I agree with and understand both yours and Janet's explanation. I'm just exploring and researching peoples views and comparing.

My interest was also in views on Hips so you have answered them too.

On Hips, or Koshi, I have been interested for a while on peoples views as I haven't seen any relating to mine. It's all interesting.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-24-2011, 06:27 PM   #35
JW
 
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Re: Why move from the center?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
On Hips, or Koshi, I have been interested for a while on peoples views as I haven't seen any relating to mine.
Well please don't leave us hanging! What is the role of the hips for you, and is it synonymous with moving from the center, somewhat related, or distinct? Thanks!
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Old 07-24-2011, 07:00 PM   #36
graham christian
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Re: Why move from the center?

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Well please don't leave us hanging! What is the role of the hips for you, and is it synonymous with moving from the center, somewhat related, or distinct? Thanks!
Pardon? I'd finished although I was considering opening a new thread to ask what others view on koshi was.

O.k. Yes I do have it as something distinct and 'separate' ( knowing that all things in harmony relate and operate together)

In fact I have it as equal in importance to hara etc. In my Aikido I teach Koshi albeit different to what I usually come across from others I come across in the arts.

In terms of stages of learning or development I find it comes after or later than the understanding and use of centre, or indeed hara as most folks like to call it.

Therefore I notice many have what I can see as a misunderstanding on the word Koshi and hips and tend to think it means the pelvic region and thus equate it with a rotational movement of the hips. Some as like a thrusting or throwing of the hips. Some more as a hip waist thing which then makes sense of koshi nage.

From a hara point of view it would then be seen as power given to the hips or even drawn from them or both. No doubt there are other views too.

For me the misunderstanding physically comes from not knowing the true meaning is to do with the back of the hips right at the base of the spine. I'm sure I could look up a more technical structural definition ie: which anatomical part of the spine where it meets the hips I'm referring to.

I have seen many faces brighten up in some kind of eurika moment when they remember 'oh, so that's what he meant by opening the hips' as they remember what a past teacher told them.

Anyway' just to give you an idea where I'm coming from for starters otherwise I'll be writing a book on it.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-24-2011, 07:34 PM   #37
graham christian
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Re: Why move from the center?

Ah. Jonathan. Just looked up some anatomy so i would call it the lumbar sacral part of the spine/hips.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-24-2011, 08:39 PM   #38
Janet Rosen
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Re: Why move from the center?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ah. Jonathan. Just looked up some anatomy so i would call it the lumbar sacral part of the spine/hips.

Regards.G.
What you describe is not what I consider part of the hip structure at all. It is the lumbo-sacrum and the area where it connects to the pelvis fans out laterally to the iliac crest is the sacro-iliac.

The "true" hip is the joint where the top of the femur rests on the socket at the lower aspect of the lateral pelvis - it is actually lower than the more common usage of "hip" which is the part of the lateral pelvis just above that joint - like where women are wide.

Its telling that when people talk about hip pain they are talking about one of those OR low hip/groin pain like the psoas. But sacroiliac pain is "back pain."

Now clearly YMMV, but I think your usage of the term "hips" is different from most folks.

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-24-2011, 09:07 PM   #39
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Why move from the center?

We have to be careful not to equate hips with koshi. Koshi is an area that encompasses the lower back and the top of back half of the pelvis. Hips are obviously the area centered around the pelvis. If you have lower back pain, you clearly wouldn't say that your hips hurt, but in Japanese, you would absolutely say that your koshi hurts.

Just my 2 cents worth. I actually spent a good 20 minutes discussing the difference between hips and koshi in a comparative linguistics tutorial once.
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Old 07-24-2011, 10:02 PM   #40
Janet Rosen
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Re: Why move from the center?

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
We have to be careful not to equate hips with koshi. Koshi is an area that encompasses the lower back and the top of back half of the pelvis. Hips are obviously the area centered around the pelvis. If you have lower back pain, you clearly wouldn't say that your hips hurt, but in Japanese, you would absolutely say that your koshi hurts.

Just my 2 cents worth. I actually spent a good 20 minutes discussing the difference between hips and koshi in a comparative linguistics tutorial once.
Yes! Thank you for a nice follow up to my more purely anatomical description.

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-25-2011, 03:05 AM   #41
graham christian
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Re: Why move from the center?

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Yes! Thank you for a nice follow up to my more purely anatomical description.
O.k. Thanks. So now that we've got the anatomical linguistics straight we can see what I mean by Koshi.

Generally this is called hips by many (wrongly in my view).

Let's take koshinage. Most would call it a hip throw wouldn't they?

But the hips, especially the western view of hips, is not Koshi so mistakes and misunderstandings abound.

As you say in the west we talk back pain or lower back pain. In japan they don't say this they say koshi hurts.

[/quote]What you describe is not what I consider part of the hip structure at all. It is the lumbo-sacrum and the area where it connects to the pelvis fans out laterally to the iliac crest is the sacro-iliac.[quote]

So Janet. That which you describe there is what I mean by Koshi.

I am saying all Koshi moves are based on that. I am also saying there is a history and development of that Koshi, not dissimilar to how you develop hara.

I am also saying when this is acquired then doing moves from seiza are simple and no harder than standing, in fact much easier.

Jonathan, that includes cutting the sword etc.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-28-2011, 01:32 PM   #42
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Why move from the center?

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
an actual simple-stupid definition of what tenchijin is
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Old 07-28-2011, 01:48 PM   #43
SteveTrinkle
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Re: Why move from the center?

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Stayin' Alive!

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Old 07-29-2011, 12:08 PM   #44
Krystal Locke
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Re: Why move from the center?

Physics, leverage, fulcrum, center of mass. Bipedal rather than quadripedal.

What's the heaviest, most useful, most immovable thing we've got? The planet. It is the best fulcrum and/or thing to push off from we've got for moving things.

The linkage between a person's hips and the planet is rather short and powerful when compared to the linkage between the person's shoulders and the planet, and shoulder linkage has to go through the hips anyway, so let's make sure they're solid first.

Each joint between bones is another angle to be optimized when transferring power, and it all has to begin and end with one's connection to the planet.

Now, lots of places make a point of teaching elbow power, is there an analogous knee power we could look at?
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:00 PM   #45
gregstec
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Re: Why move from the center?

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I think I have seen pictures of Ueshiba doing that same pose - maybe there is something hidden in plain sight there, maybe a mystical message or hint

Greg
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:08 PM   #46
graham christian
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Re: Why move from the center?

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I think I have seen pictures of Ueshiba doing that same pose - maybe there is something hidden in plain sight there, maybe a mystical message or hint

Greg
Like a finger pointing to the moon......
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:24 PM   #47
gregstec
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Re: Why move from the center?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Like a finger pointing to the moon......
Or maybe a finger up someones moon shot - who knows, sounds mystical to me - maybe I need to spend some time to evaluate the hidden meanings - back in a while after I find something

Greg
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:32 PM   #48
Mike Sigman
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Re: Why move from the center?

Actually, that kind of pose is pretty common in a number of Chinese martial arts, either statically or transitionally. "Winding" or "spirals", though, is simply a tangent of what is actually going on.... hence my curiosity about why a tangent is being focused on so much.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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