Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Teaching

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-26-2011, 08:56 PM   #101
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Yes, I found the site you accessed as well. Both sites are copyrighted. Translators worth their salt have monolingual dictionaries and I have an old one. The reference to the monks is given as the second definition, but as an older use of the term, rather than an explanation of its origin.

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 09:12 PM   #102
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

I see. Thanks for the info. I somehow suspected all this was not news to you. :-)
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 12:13 AM   #103
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
There is also something very curious about Saito Sensei's explanation of hanmi on p.34. He states that the Founder did not use the term hanmi when the Japanese Budo volume was written, but the term appears in the Japanese text I quoted earlier.
I personally feel that there is a certain layer of, shall we say, politics in Saito's commentary on budo, in that a) it was interpreted through Saito's own understanding of aikido, and b) similarities with Saito's style are emphasized while differences are downplayed. At the same time, I don't there's much to be made of Saito's statement compared to Ueshiba's use of "hanmi" in the quoted section. What Saito is saying is that Ueshiba did not use "hanmi" in Budo as a term for what is now called the "hanmi" stance; he used "roppo ni hiraku". "Hanmi" is in the quoted section, but it is part of larger description of "aiki posture" that also includes "irimi". One could easily read that use of "hanmi" as supporting Saito's interpretation that "roppo ni hiraku" meant the same as what would later be called "hanmi". My translation of that sentence would go:

"Filling with spirit (kisei), open the feet in six directions, facing the enemy with the hanmi irimi posture of aiki."

(Interestingly, Steven's translation fails to account for the word "irimi", while introducing the absent term "flexible". Reason #3,847 why translations in general suck.)

In my opinion, 半身入身合氣ノ姿勢 (hanmi irimi aiki no shisei) could easily be read as appositive of "roppo ni hiraku". Further, you could replace all instances of "roppo ni hiraku" with "hanmi ni naru" and contextually it would still work.

Concerning Okamoto, I think his statement "I am eager to get as many meanings as I can out of the term" suggests to me that he may not be a reliable source for how Ueshiba understood "roppo ni hiraku" nor for how he used it in Budo. At least from semantic point of view.

And yet, and yet... John Stevens sometimes gets a bit of grief here about his translations, including from myself. I don't deny that what he puts in and what he leaves out sometimes has me scratching my head. On the other hand, he was a student of Shirata Rinjiro, a pre-war student of Ueshiba. It seems to me that he would be eminently qualified to translate such a text as Budo. Here is a 60 degree angle. Imagine one's lead foot at B and one's rear foot near the A, pointing towards D. Would this not be a perfectly acceptable hanmi, commonly seen in various aikido lines, if not the 90 degree hanmi apparently preferred by Saito?

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 08:01 AM   #104
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Do you have the set of Saito Sensei's old volumes? If you do, you should notice that the prefaces, written by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Gozo Shioda, Shoji Nishio and another person I do not know, were not translated into English. Kisshomaru gives his own views on the weapons training his father practised in Iwama and I fail to understand why it was not translated. I have translated Kisshomaru's comments and posted them somewhere on Aikiweb, but I forget where.
Hello Peter,
I hope life is treating you well. As for the above reference, did you mean the one I've quoted below?

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=258771
Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Ueshiba Kisshomaru gives a sketch of his own thoughts about this in an unusual place. The early volumes of the late Saito Morihiro Shihan, entitled Traditional Aikido: Sword, Stick, Body Arts, are being republished, but the ‘Greetings', penned by Kisshomaru—and also by Shioda Gozo and Nishio Shoji, were not originally translated into English. Kisshomaru's ‘Greeting' deserves a second look here. Perhaps as a counterbalance to the immense role and influence of Iwama in aikido history and folklore, Kisshomaru is at pains to underline his own training with the sword at the hands of his father. (As usual, AikiWeb Japanese addicts can try their hand at a translation.)

開祖は常に"剣の理合いを体に現したものが合気道の動きである。"と言われたものです。更 に"体術で基礎を体得し、然る後、剣を持つのが常道である。合気道に於いて体の基礎が出来ない者に剣を持たせる事は、生兵法という者になる。"と修行者を いましめて居られた事も記憶しています。故に合気道に於いて一般的に多数の初心稽古をする場合は、剣を用いないのが通常となっています。
 然し、合気道に於いて剣理を体得する事は非常に大切な事です。
 故に開祖は、昭和9年頃から私に剣を習えと指示され、開祖が態々古流の剣では名人と言わ れていた師範を東京の本部道場に招かれ、開祖立ちあいのもとで、真の剣の修業させられたものです。外に私は一般的な剣道も僅か乍ら修業致しました。
 故に昭和11年頃から昭和20年の終戦に至る迄、開祖の演武会等に於ける剣の相手は常に私 がおせつかったものです。
 開祖の指示で私が剣の修業をしていた当時、"其の剣に合気の気を生かしてこそ、まことの剣 法となるのだ。此の剣理を理解する事が合気道上達の近道だ。"と言われたものです。
 最近、合気道は非常な勢いて普及しています。合気人口は90万とも言われています。其の 反面、修業者多数のため、場所其の他の制的で、剣の修業がともすればおろそかになり勝ちの現況です。その盲点を、そうであってはならずという事で、斉藤さ んの今回の出版は、修行者に対し誠に時宜を得た警鐘ともなりましょう。(Saito Morihiro, Traditional Aikido, Vol. 1, 1973, Minato Research, p. 6.)
I'll shift focus here and quote Chris Li.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
When I look at the special edition of Budo it seems to me that the English translation, and even much of the Japanese commentary has a few problems. For example, in the section on suwariwaza kokyu-ho on page 154 Ueshiba's original Japanese reads "Always turn both palms inward, put strength/power ("chikara") into your fingertips, focus your intent and push down the enemy with the feeling of swinging a sword."

Saito's Japanese got the "strength/power in your fingertips" right, but the English translation reads "put ki energy into your fingertips", although both Japanese texts use "chikara", not "ki". Also, both Saito's Japanese and the English translation omit "focus your intent" part which seems, to me, an essential element - if not the essential element.

As far as kamae, both Saito's commentary and the English translation represent "always open your legs in six directions" as an archaic way of saying "hanmi", but I have my doubts, especially given the other problems in the other translations.

Best,

Chris
As many people are finding out, "intent" is actually a very critical training element for aiki. Here we have Ueshiba talking directly about intent.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Again I would say Ueshiba knew what he was talking about and trying to point out in several areas.
Dan
and

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I agree with Dan Harden that it is best to assume that M Ueshiba was well aware of what he was doing with the Budo volume and that he approved what was stated there.
If we take it as factual that Ueshiba knew what he was talking about, then perhaps we should be looking for what Ueshiba *meant*. As Chris mentioned above, Ueshiba talked about focusing one's intent. We can debate what "intent" meant, but we shouldn't be substituting other words for it. If Ueshiba said to open the feet in six directions, we shouldn't be looking at a 60 degree stance, but rather what Ueshiba meant by "6 directions" as there are many meanings for it. Of course, there are only a few meanings for that phrase in the internal arts.

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
I personally feel that there is a certain layer of, shall we say, politics in Saito's commentary on budo, in that a) it was interpreted through Saito's own understanding of aikido, and b) similarities with Saito's style are emphasized while differences are downplayed. At the same time, I don't there's much to be made of Saito's statement compared to Ueshiba's use of "hanmi" in the quoted section. What Saito is saying is that Ueshiba did not use "hanmi" in Budo as a term for what is now called the "hanmi" stance; he used "roppo ni hiraku". "Hanmi" is in the quoted section, but it is part of larger description of "aiki posture" that also includes "irimi". One could easily read that use of "hanmi" as supporting Saito's interpretation that "roppo ni hiraku" meant the same as what would later be called "hanmi". My translation of that sentence would go:

"Filling with spirit (kisei), open the feet in six directions, facing the enemy with the hanmi irimi posture of aiki."

(Interestingly, Steven's translation fails to account for the word "irimi", while introducing the absent term "flexible". Reason #3,847 why translations in general suck.)

In my opinion, 半身入身合氣ノ姿勢 (hanmi irimi aiki no shisei) could easily be read as appositive of "roppo ni hiraku". Further, you could replace all instances of "roppo ni hiraku" with "hanmi ni naru" and contextually it would still work.

Concerning Okamoto, I think his statement "I am eager to get as many meanings as I can out of the term" suggests to me that he may not be a reliable source for how Ueshiba understood "roppo ni hiraku" nor for how he used it in Budo. At least from semantic point of view.

And yet, and yet... John Stevens sometimes gets a bit of grief here about his translations, including from myself. I don't deny that what he puts in and what he leaves out sometimes has me scratching my head. On the other hand, he was a student of Shirata Rinjiro, a pre-war student of Ueshiba. It seems to me that he would be eminently qualified to translate such a text as Budo. Here is a 60 degree angle. Imagine one's lead foot at B and one's rear foot near the A, pointing towards D. Would this not be a perfectly acceptable hanmi, commonly seen in various aikido lines, if not the 90 degree hanmi apparently preferred by Saito?
And we come to hanmi ...

Why are we substituting that word for roppo ni hiraku if we are going to take Ueshiba at his word. Shouldn't we, rather, be discussing exactly what Ueshiba meant by roppo ni hiraku? We've all read the Modern Aikido translations multiple times and that has gotten us where? In the 42 years since Ueshiba's death, the aikido world has trod hanmi to death and failed to reach any of the Aikido great's abilities or skills. Perhaps it is time to actually take Ueshiba at his words and search for their meaning rather than substitute terms we are more familiar with? Aiki was never "familiar" to martial artists. It was THE secret. Familiarity breeds normalcy. Ueshiba was anything but normal.

All IMO,
Mark

Edit: My post was meant to address the public and not one single person. Wasn't sure if that was clear.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 09:06 AM   #105
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
What Saito is saying is that Ueshiba did not use "hanmi" in Budo as a term for what is now called the "hanmi" stance; he used "roppo ni hiraku".
Interesting to read he NEVER used the term Hanmi and instead opted for six directions.
Why?
He knew what he was talking about.
Stevens doesn't
Were his works to have been discussed with a better educated group of people, they would have preserved what he actually said. It is worth considering that even those who read it in it's orignal form didn't know and didn't much care either as stated by interviews with some deshi.
At least there could have been a chance that the non Japanese might have done some research and got a better education were they to have has access to the original meaning, even if only spawned by curiosity.

Another reference to six directions form Ueshiba
Interesting that the only other ten dan he awarded was to a no dancer because he "got it."
I've read sections of a translated training scroll for a now defunt no dance school from the 1780's, in which it is stated to move while mainting six directions and it stated why. That it allows you to remain stable and maintain perfect balance in order to float acorss the floor.

I think it is interesting that the person who translated that was more than likely ignorant of the subject yet purposefully left the words intact. Those ignorant of the topic can argue it is a coincidence, those familair will say, " Of course it is in keeping with a known principle".
Thankfully it was not translated by a budo guy!

Quote:
you could replace all instances of "roppo ni hiraku" with "hanmi ni naru" and contextually it would still work.
Really? According to who? Words are words and are all equal? I guess all phrasing is interchangeable when you don't know the value of what they actually mean.
Hanmi as a subsitute not only does not work, it will not "do" for the practioner any thing near what the founder was both doing himself and trying to express to an ignorant audience. That he used six direction training as part of an overal model to attain power and balance is what someone who is trying to understand his power would be after.
Again it has a pedagogy in the martial arts. All that people are doing is demonstrating their ignorance of the subject and going a long way to demonstrate it in their budo as well.

Quote:
And yet, and yet... John Stevens sometimes gets a bit of grief here about his translations, including from myself. ...
...he was a student of Shirata Rinjiro, a pre-war student of Ueshiba. It seems to me that he would be eminently qualified to translate such a text as Budo.
No, not even close, in fact these authors with a passing knowledge of the subject often do as much damage as good; substituting their own knowledge in one area to mask a profound ignorance in an other. I've read any number of books on forging katana that have " facts" that are flat out wrong. And in their bibliographies, we find other books with unchallenged, mistakes as well.
Shirata had a series of power building exercises more akin to what Ueshiba was actually doing and fitting in with Daito ryu and Chinese arts. I have trained with one of Shirata's deshi who did not have a good handle on what they were for. Mr. Stevens is yet another example of that.

Few have managed to replicate the founders power and skill, and the translators ignorance of a training process has helped to obliterate even the few written clues he left.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-27-2011 at 09:19 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 01:00 PM   #106
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Why are we substituting that word for roppo ni hiraku if we are going to take Ueshiba at his word. Shouldn't we, rather, be discussing exactly what Ueshiba meant by roppo ni hiraku?
Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's exactly what we are doing. Ueshiba wrote "ashi wo roppo ni hiraku". Saito, a long time student who had more hands-on time with Ueshiba than anyone this board said, "That meant 'hanmi'." What we're doing now is discussing the validity of that. Did Ueshiba mean something to do with IP by that? Maybe. Maybe not. That's the discussion. The fact is, contextually, Saito's contention makes sense. In Ueshiba's own words he contrasts "ashi wo roppo ni hiraku" with "seitai" -- fully facing the opponent from the front.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Interesting to read he NEVER used the term Hanmi and instead opted for six directions.
Why?
He knew what he was talking about.
Stevens doesn't.
As Professor Goldsbury notes, Ueshiba did use the term hanmi, and as I noted, linked it directly with "ashi wo roppo ni hiraku". Further, it was not Stevens who translated it as hanmi. In fact, no one has. Stevens translated it "roppo ni hiraku" as "60 degrees" (the use of hanmi is in the original). Roppo is left untranslated in Saito's special edition of Budo, with a note from Pranin that it means "six directions" and an explanation from Saito that it referred to hanmi.

Quote:
Really? According to who? Words are words and are all equal? I guess all phrasing is interchangeable when you don't know the value of what they actually mean.
Hanmi as a subsitute not only does not work, it will not "do" for the practioner any thing near what the founder was both doing himself and trying to express to an ignorant audience. That he used six direction training as part of an overal model to attain power and balance is what someone who is trying to understand his power would be after.
Dan, I respect your reputation, vouched for by many others of excellent standing. But you are speaking beyond your knowledge here. I am not saying words are interchangeable. I'm not saying that "roppo" means "hanmi". What I am saying is that Saito has a basis for his argument given the use of the term in context. Replace "ashi wo roppo ni hiraku" with "hanmi ni naru", and the sentences maintain complete semantic and contextual sense. There's no stretch, no squinting needed. That doesn't mean it's correct. But as of yet, no one's provided a better explanation of just what Ueshiba meant by "open the feet in six directions", and how that relates to hanmi, irimi, maai, and not facing the enemy fully facing forward. If you have one, I'm all ears. So far, all we have is people saying "Well, technically he didn't specifically say 'hanmi'; he said 'open the feet in six directions'." That doesn't address the problem. The purpose of translation is to communicate ideas from one language to the other. "Open the feet in six directions", the direct translation, makes no sense prima facie; it requires some note or explanation of what that term means.

Quote:
No, not even close, in fact these authors with a passing knowledge of the subject often do as much damage as good; substituting their own knowledge in one area to mask a profound ignorance in an other. I've read any number of books on forging katana that have " facts" that are flat out wrong. And in their bibliographies, we find other books with unchallenged, mistakes as well.
Shirata had a series of power building exercises more akin to what Ueshiba was actually doing and fitting in with Daito ryu and Chinese arts. I have trained with one of Shirata's deshi who did not have a good handle on what they were for. Mr. Stevens is yet another example of that.

Few have managed to replicate the founders power and skill, and the translators ignorance of a training process has helped to obliterate even the few written clues he left.
Is it your contention then, that this can be learned from reading things? I'm of the opinion that it cannot. Why are people even looking there? No one's going to unlock the key from reading Ueshiba's writings because he didn't mean for the writings to do that. The writings, such as they are, are meant to call to mind things already learned, the key already unlocked.

And one more thing that seems to be greatly overlooked. Let's review Okamoto Seigo's comments again:
Quote:
Okamoto Seigo wrote:
Roppo can be understood in a variety of ways, such as the roppo of roppogumi [six groups of chivalrous young men who used to wander the city streets in the Edo period]. Or it can be equated with the roppo from the kabuki term roppo o fumu of Benkei [a priest of the early Kamakura period and a famous retainer of Yoshitsune Minamoto. Roppo o fumu means to make one's exit with bold gestures along the runway]. However, I usually compare roppo to gaming dice to describe techniques which can deal with any situation from any direction, top or bottom, front or back, right or left, like the faces of dice. But these techniques do not have square angles like dice but are round, forming six (roku) infinite circles. I am eager to get as many meanings as I can out of the term.
Okamoto, who I believe is generally believed to have garnered some understanding of aiki/IP, illustrates a point well understood by anybody who has some exposure to classical budo documents: one word can mean many things. I can, for example, give you three different meanings to the phrase "the sound of wind and water" all coming from the same line of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu. All valid, and all distinct. I can do the same for each of the terms "Shinmyoken", "Katsuninken", and "Setsuninto". Sometimes "kurai" refers to physical posture; sometime it refers to position vis-a-vis maai.

Does "roppo" mean the six directions of north, south, east, west, up and down? Absolutely.
Was Ueshiba referring to that when he wrote "ashi wo roppo ni hiraku"? Not necessarily. And frankly, insisting that it does here is just doing what Stevens and Saito/Pranin did: trying to read Ueshiba's mind through one's own understanding. And though you might be more proficient in the body skills than either of them, that doesn't make you right in this case. They may have better information informing their translation than you do.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 01:10 PM   #107
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: kamae problem

To further add fuel to the fire, we have this sentence from Professor Goldsbury's quotation:

足ノ踏ミ方ニハ外六方、内六方及外巴、内巴アリ練習ノ際ニ傅授ス

A no-frills, fairly direct translation with no attempt at the cruces would be:
"The ways of stepping the feet are outside-roppo, inside-roppo as well as outside-tomoe and inside-tomoe. This is taught in practice."

Tomoe means "eddy, swirl". This sentence is notable for being completely ignored by Stevens and Saito/Pranin. Stevens throws in a completely made up sentence that bears the slightest of resemblance to the original. Anyone want to take a crack at those terms?

Last edited by Josh Reyer : 07-27-2011 at 01:13 PM.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 01:22 PM   #108
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,037
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
To further add fuel to the fire, we have this sentence from Professor Goldsbury's quotation:

足ノ"・ミ方ニハ外六方、"燔Z方及外"b、""bアリ練習ノ際ニ傅授ス

A no-frills, fairly direct translation with no attempt at the cruces would be:
"The ways of stepping the feet are outside-roppo, inside-roppo as well as outside-tomoe and inside-tomoe. This is taught in practice."

Tomoe means "eddy, swirl". This sentence is notable for being completely ignored by Stevens and Saito/Pranin. Stevens throws in a completely made up sentence that bears the slightest of resemblance to the original. Anyone want to take a crack at those terms?
A "tomoe" is a spiral - it makes complete sense for anybody who's spent time with Dan...

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 01:52 PM   #109
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
Saito, a long time student who had more hands-on time with Ueshiba than anyone this board said, "That meant 'hanmi'." What we're doing now is discussing the validity of that.
Acutally, if I understand the discussion, we're in agreement that roppo means hanmi, just from the point of view of where the feet go. I think the debate is about whether "roppo" is a more insightful term than "hanmi", having richer implications and ties to other concepts.

So Saito may be correct in saying "O-Sensei meant put your feet like this", but we still may prefer the older term for the insight it offers. None of this would matter much, except that if O-Sensei's teachings have been over-simplified, then important aspects of his art have been forgotten. We're sifting through his writings for clues that will help recover them.

Last edited by hughrbeyer : 07-27-2011 at 01:56 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 02:43 PM   #110
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Hi Josh
All due respect, dont confuse translation abilities with the subject material. I was addressing the direct reading of Ueshiba's words (all others being secondary) as done by a professional translator, who is also an Aikido teacher and is also familiar with internal power terms and teachings.
We agree on what Ueshiba's actual words were. Fine. You want to debate that they are an "idea" open for debate. I am telling you it is an established principle.
I gave you another example of its use in Noh dancing and of Ueshiba himself acknowledging its use, which you left unaddressed.

Just because you don't know what six direction training is does not mean that others versed in it have to explain it to you in order for its pedagogy to be valid.
1. I have stood in rooms with dozens of Martial artists and gave instruction "Maintain six directions in your stance" and everyone there knew what I was referring to. No explanation needed.

Hanmi does not cut it, and it is a piss poor reflection on his teaching to say: .
Ueshiba said stand in Hanmi
When he really said
Open your legs in Six direction awareness. You can stand in hanmi all day long and never accomplish six direction awareness in your body.

I mean this respectfully but Saito, Stevens, Stan, Peter, you and one million Aikido-ka debating it, doesn't change a thing, other than you don't know what your founder was talking about and now want to debate a well known teaching model as if it is debatable in the first place BECUASE of your ignorance.
At last Chiba had the guts to say he didn't get it and didn't care.

Go study the internal arts. When you hear the term for the umpteenth thousandth time along with a host of others Ueshiba used...you might understand his level of education included well establised principles not subject to debate by you or anyone else.
What if he wrote that aikido training must be consistent with the six harmonies.
What if the translator a) did not know the term b) screwed around and had it come out with something consistent with his understanding of aikido be in harmony with your opponent
Aikido-ka would accept it on the spot.
Anyone reading (with a better education) would laugh out loud.

Stevens, Saito and Pranin would not have had to read Ueshiba's mind were they educated in the same principles Ueshiba was educated in would they? Had they followed through with some research they could have fleshed out a broader meaning or better still, would have understood what Ueshiba was saying in the first place..

Presupposing that being versed in one area makes you qualified in another is just a mistake; choosing to remain unaware with better access to research, and information is purposeful.
I hope this debate does not sour what has otherwise been positive communicaton between us.
All the best
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 04:26 PM   #111
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
To further add fuel to the fire, we have this sentence from Professor Goldsbury's quotation:

足ノ踏ミ方ニハ外六方、内六方及外巴、内巴アリ練習ノ際ニ傅授ス

A no-frills, fairly direct translation with no attempt at the cruces would be:
"The ways of stepping the feet are outside-roppo, inside-roppo as well as outside-tomoe and inside-tomoe. This is taught in practice."

Tomoe means "eddy, swirl". This sentence is notable for being completely ignored by Stevens and Saito/Pranin. Stevens throws in a completely made up sentence that bears the slightest of resemblance to the original. Anyone want to take a crack at those terms?
Even before Chris posted, I was chuckling at your translation, pointing, and going, spirals! LOL. Sorry, it was just too funny to see another translation of Ueshiba pointing to internal principles.

Dan's post about content aside, I've found that both you and Peter have shown the best translation abilities. While you may (or may not, I don't know) scratch your head at the words you translate, you have been far, far closer than anyone else I've read. I don't know if either of you realised that, so I thought I'd say it, er write it. Thanks!

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 08:39 PM   #112
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:
To further add fuel to the fire, we have this sentence from Professor Goldsbury's quotation:
‘ォƒm"・ƒ~•ƒjƒnŠO˜Z•、"˜Z•‹yŠO"b、""bƒAƒŠ—習ƒm際ƒj˜ŽƒX
A no-frills, fairly direct translation with no attempt at the cruces would be:
"The ways of stepping the feet are outside-roppo, inside-roppo as well as outside-tomoe and inside-tomoe. This is taught in practice."

Tomoe means "eddy, swirl". This sentence is notable for being completely ignored by Stevens and Saito/Pranin. Stevens throws in a completely made up sentence that bears the slightest of resemblance to the original. Anyone want to take a crack at those terms?
A "tomoe" is a spiral - it makes complete sense for anybody who's spent time with Dan...
Best,
Chris
Hi Chris
Makes more and more sense as time goes on doesn't it? Even with this recent attempt at translating an established model as "eddies and swirls" we both know about spiraling the legs; since spiraling the legs is ages old (and the founder mentioned spiraling elsewhere as well), what do we do now... debate something millions know about and where it fits in with so many other arts? And with whom?

Once again, when we finally get to read the actual words we read established concepts that all fit and make sense.
This bring up another question tied in with Josh's observation.
Quote:
"Well, technically he didn't specifically say 'hanmi'; he said 'open the feet in six directions'." That doesn't address the problem. The purpose of translation is to communicate ideas from one language to the other. "Open the feet in six directions", the direct translation, makes no sense prima facie; it requires some note or explanation of what that term means.
Since we now have had his actual words laid out, those educated in certain principles he was discussing can understand the clear reference with no notation.
There are possibly a thousand or so modern aikido-ka here who understand that particular reference; both historically and practically
How come his early deshi did not?

I am sure there will apologist who will say that they did, and they chose a dumbed down version to translate for us outsiders. If you want to go there, then show me the use of Ueshiba's correct terminology within the his early deshi's teachings. I have never heard of them or read further references to them. I have read most of the material published. Where is it?

I suggest, (as several deshi also admit) that they didn't get it and they didn't care. and were actually not capable of nor versed in these concepts and hence had no real ability to translate them correctly. Some have even admitted they regret not listening to him more.

We may have some interesting days ahead as people capable of the translation work get more experienced and conversant in internal principles and skills that Ueshiba was actually doing and researching.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-27-2011 at 08:46 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 09:07 PM   #113
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,037
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Chris
Makes more and more sense as time goes on doesn't it? Even with this recent attempt at translating an established model as "eddies and swirls" we both know about spiraling the legs; since spiraling the legs is ages old (and the founder mentioned spiraling elsewhere as well), what do we do now... debate something millions know about and where it fits in with so many other arts? And with whom?
Well, it's clear to me - I would think that the case is getting solid enough that it ought to be clear to everybody. There are just too many telltale markers.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This bring up another question tied in with Josh's observation.
Quote:
"Well, technically he didn't specifically say 'hanmi'; he said 'open the feet in six directions'." That doesn't address the problem. The purpose of translation is to communicate ideas from one language to the other. "Open the feet in six directions", the direct translation, makes no sense prima facie; it requires some note or explanation of what that term means.
No offense to Josh - but this is how we got into trouble in the first place - translation without really understanding the terms being used, and just concluding that they make no sense unless changed into something else.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I suggest, (as several deshi also admit) that they didn't get it and they didn't care. and were actually not capable of nor versed in these concepts and hence had no real ability to translate them correctly. Some have even admitted they regret not listening to him more.

We may have some interesting days ahead as people capable of the translation work get more experienced and conversant in internal principles and skills that Ueshiba was actually doing and researching.
Dan
However innocently it happened - we were bamboozled. Now's our chance to get back on track - I just hope that we don't f**k it up.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 09:24 PM   #114
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

The best part about this is that we have the whole paper trail in this example. It's like finding a missing evolutionary link in paleontology. We can see how O-Sensei used a term with IS principles; how that term was simplified into another purely external term; how that term, with none of the original context, is now the one used and taught. Presto, an internal art turns into an external art.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 11:21 PM   #115
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Quote:
All due respect, dont confuse translation abilities with the subject material. I was addressing the direct reading of Ueshiba's words (all others being secondary) as done by a professional translator, who is also an Aikido teacher and is also familiar with internal power terms and teachings.
We agree on what Ueshiba's actual words were. Fine. You want to debate that they are an "idea" open for debate. I am telling you it is an established principle.
I gave you another example of its use in Noh dancing and of Ueshiba himself acknowledging its use, which you left unaddressed.
No, Dan, you didn't give me another example of its use in Noh dancing; you gave me an unsourced paraphrase of a translation taken completely out of its context. I left it unaddressed because I have no way of evaluating the source material, nor the translation with such meager information.

Quote:
Just because you don't know what six direction training is does not mean that others versed in it have to explain it to you in order for its pedagogy to be valid.
I've said nothing about pedagogy. I believe in six-direction training, I am hardly an internal training apostate. My point in all this has not been to deny nor to demand verification of its validity. My concern here is textual. The people here saying "ashi wo roppo ni hiraku" doesn't mean hanmi have essentially been saying, "take my word for it." Well, I'm completely open to being convinced, but so far no one's put together an argument other than that. I'm not even convinced of Saito's take on it, that it means hanmi. But when the original says "open your feet in six directions because fully facing the opponent is full of openings", and given the multiple experiences I have with Japanese budo terms having multiple meanings depending on the context, I have to admit that Saito has a case.

My point, as it always seems to in discussions of Japanese and translation, comes down to context. You folks have latched on to "six directions" and said, "IP! Not hanmi!" but I'm still waiting an explanation of how that makes sense in context. If it was just "Fill your body with ki and open your feet in six directions", I'd be right with you guys. When it's "Fill your body with ki, and open your feet in six directions, facing the enemy with the hanmi irimi posture of aiki," followed by "In practice, train so as to use a left or right kamae considering the enemy's kamae, always completing each movement with the feet open in six directions. Because there are too many openings, it's disadvantageous to fully face forward against the enemy." Well, I have my doubts that your contention fits the context. Again, which is not to say I'm 100% Saito is right, nor that I can't be convinced that you are right. Only that I remain unconvinced. Which may suit you fine. You may have no interest in convincing me.

Quote:
I mean this respectfully but Saito, Stevens, Stan, Peter, you and one million Aikido-ka debating it, doesn't change a thing, other than you don't know what your founder was talking about and now want to debate a well known teaching model as if it is debatable in the first place BECUASE of your ignorance.
For the record, I am not an aikido-ka nor is Ueshiba my founder. I'm not debating a well-known teaching model, I'm pointing out, as a disinterested and uninterested outside observer, that there are textual, contextual problems with your argument. Let me put this way: I'm not arguing lexicon, I'm arguing syntax.

Quote:
What if he wrote that aikido training must be consistent with the six harmonies.
What if the translator a) did not know the term b) screwed around and had it come out with something consistent with his understanding of aikido be in harmony with your opponent
Aikido-ka would accept it on the spot.
Anyone reading (with a better education) would laugh out loud.
Personally, I would laugh out loud, just because that would be such a ridiculous translation.

Quote:
I hope this debate does not sour what has otherwise been positive communicaton between us.
I was intending to say not at all, not at all, but then...

Quote:
Even with this recent attempt at translating an established model as "eddies and swirls" we both know about spiraling the legs;
...this pisses me off. I did not attempt to translate any "established model". I intentionally left "tomoe" untranslated to preserve the original meaning as much as possible. I then added a note that "tomoe means eddies and swirls", which is uncontestable, just to provide some context for people who don't have Japanese ability. If you then say, "tomoe in this case refers to spiraling the legs", fantastic! That's why I posted the damn thing in the first place. Don't assume my intentions.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
No offense to Josh - but this is how we got into trouble in the first place - translation without really understanding the terms being used, and just concluding that they make no sense unless changed into something else.
No, Chris, you misunderstand me. I'm not in favor of changing anything. I don't agree with what Stevens did. My point goes to notation or commentary, and includes everything from an explanation of six directions to simply saying, "We're not sure what this means." When I say "you could replace 'ashi wo roppo ni hiraku' with 'hanmi ni naru'' I'm not saying you should do that. And in fact my major gripe with Saito's special edition is that there is precious little of the original, and a whole lot of Saito's commentary.

In my opinion, all translations of budo material are flawed in that they can only reflect the understanding of the translator at that time. And that's a moving target. If we were to dump all of my Japanese ability into Dan, the Dan of 10 years ago may very well interpret that crux differently from the Dan of today and the Dan of 10 years from now. So the translation should, IMO, hew as close to the original as possible. But that will create confusing segments, and if possible, those segments should be augmented with some kind of annotation, preferably one that doesn't send someone off the wrong track. But no translation is going to be perfect. The written or spoken word is ill-suited to describe this stuff in the first place (be that IP or EP), and translation just adds another process on top of that.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 12:31 AM   #116
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Josh
What do you propose to do with training concepts and principles that are established, defined and known but the translator is totally ignorant of? Invent your own meanings by choosing the wrong words?
What do you propose when the speaker states he uses this concept, and the translator uses terminology that defies those concepts and other times fails to mention them at all?
I say it's on the translator.
Research can provide clarity to phrases that, taken at face value, at first "make no sense" to the translator. In so doing you can preserve "intact" the phrases and meanings of words that define the concept that will later be recognized by the informed reader.

However, faced with an unknown phrase, we see the translator opt to satisfy the presumed ignorance of a potential reader by re-interpreting a phrase and interjecting their own ignorance of the subject.

For you personally to think that leaves these established concepts up for debate until you are satisfied is of no interest to me. I have debated this with the community for twenty years and the community failed to deliver on their end in person-I didn't.
What you think, what I think is meaningless, anyway. The concepts were old ten generations ago. They are what they are and Ueshiba was stating them.

Quote:
...this pisses me off. I did not attempt to translate any "established model". I intentionally left "tomoe" untranslated to preserve the original meaning as much as possible. I then added a note that "tomoe means eddies and swirls", which is uncontestable, just to provide some context for people who don't have Japanese ability. If you then say, "tomoe in this case refers to spiraling the legs", fantastic! That's why I posted the damn thing in the first place. Don't assume my intentions.
Hey, sorry for pissing you off. Truly.
You offered "eddies and swirls" for tomoe when you could have offered spiral, but you didn't. Why? It would have been my first choice.

"Tomoe" used as spiraling of the legs in and out is again an established concept. In another translated work he talks about spiraling opposite sides of the body as well. A translator familiar with these budo concepts and faced with a choice would pick words that defined the accepted model, in this case spiraling. As such it was a good example of not knowing what definition to use for a word or description through ignorance of the subject.
We probably would have had a better idea of what Ueshiba actually said if a Daito ryu or Chinese budo guy had helped translate his martial concepts.
Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 05:59 AM   #117
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,751
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

a question or two for you learned gentlemen and ladies. what is the translation of hanmi? is it natural stance or walking natural stand? they are two different things. natural stance is feet parallel shoulder width apart. natural walking stance is one foot in front of the other shoulder width apart. also, since we have two feet, how do we point our feet in six direction (alien species don't count)? and what are the six directions? i know the IS/IP answer, but would like to know the normal physical answer, i.e. non-IS/IP answer.

something you might want to consider that asian languages are filled with symbolism and imagery, even when you thought it's plainly stated, it's not. take for example, in vietnamese, we talked about "travel to the 4 seas". it doesn't mean we travel to the 4 seas, but it meant to "travel the world", i.e. travel all over the world. similar to shihonage, it's not the 4 corners throw as interpreted by a number of folks, but it meant around the world, as in spinning in full circle.

i am telling you that them asians are annoying. why couldn't they just use plain english??!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 09:12 AM   #118
Patrick Hutchinson
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 94
Offline
Re: kamae problem

hanmi: half-something or other
half-assed?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 09:19 AM   #119
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,037
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Patrick Hutchinson wrote: View Post
hanmi: half-something or other
half-assed?
Well I'm certainly half an ass, but I'm really trying to become a full one .

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 10:59 AM   #120
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,037
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post

No, Chris, you misunderstand me. I'm not in favor of changing anything. I don't agree with what Stevens did. My point goes to notation or commentary, and includes everything from an explanation of six directions to simply saying, "We're not sure what this means." When I say "you could replace 'ashi wo roppo ni hiraku' with 'hanmi ni naru'' I'm not saying you should do that. And in fact my major gripe with Saito's special edition is that there is precious little of the original, and a whole lot of Saito's commentary.
You could replace it with a lot of things while keeping it, as you said, "semantically correct". I like to play Mad Libs too .

My point was that this kind of phrase is a marker for a certain kind of training - and if you've done that kind of training the meaning becomes almost painfully clear. Now, once may be a coincidence, but the telltales are scattered through Ueshiba's writings with such frequency that I wonder why most people (including me) didn't realize that they were getting smacked in the face with this earlier.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 11:37 AM   #121
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
You could replace it with a lot of things while keeping it, as you said, "semantically correct". I like to play Mad Libs too .

My point was that this kind of phrase is a marker for a certain kind of training - and if you've done that kind of training the meaning becomes almost painfully clear. Now, once may be a coincidence, but the telltales are scattered through Ueshiba's writings with such frequency that I wonder why most people (including me) didn't realize that they were getting smacked in the face with this earlier.

Best,

Chris
I think it is fair to say that unless you have had it explained, it really isn't that clear. Stop and consider, how many Aikido Shihans do you see moving in accord with your new awareness?

Which raises the other uncomfortable, but again obvious fact, that must logically follow, is this new information supports my contention;
Contrary to popular belief the vast majority of his students -including the famous translators- really didn't have a clue and just didn't get it.
Just like Ueshiba said..."This...is not....my...aikido"
Now add the reference in Ellis's Post here where the student Henry (Kono) gave O-sensei his birthday card, he asked him, "Why can we not do what you do, Sensei?" O-Sensei's reply was direct, simple and final, "Because you don't understand yin and yang."
Not only have things not changed, many who do not have exceptional skill, nor any obvious and unusual power are as confidant in their mistaken paths today as they were then.
As I used to say on the Aikido list
"Aikido, full speed....in the wrong direction."
The only difference is that now, today, with greater exposure to information and training, one by one, they see it and are going back to the origin.
Exploring the principles of the founders Aiki.
It isn't popular to say, but even O sensei said it.
It really is a tale of two aikidos.
Those doing Aikido™
Those doing the way of aiki
All the best
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-28-2011 at 11:49 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2011, 06:47 AM   #122
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Dan's post about content aside, I've found that both you and Peter have shown the best translation abilities. While you may (or may not, I don't know) scratch your head at the words you translate, you have been far, far closer than anyone else I've read. I don't know if either of you realised that, so I thought I'd say it, er write it. Thanks!

Mark
Thank you. It is good to know that we seem to do some things right. Unlike Chris Li, I am not a professional translator and nor, I believe, is Josh Reyer. I once translated the text of a technical video for our local car manufacturer and, on another occasion, the text of a lecture on brain death for the prefectural medical association, but I had to spend so much time in mastering the technical background in both cases (Chris Li is quite right here) that I decided never to do this very often. I do not need to do it for money.

However, I do not think that translation is such a zero-sum game as seems to be suggested. I think it is much more a matter of degrees. I think in this way because I have been usually translating Japanese literature, stuff written by people like Tanizaki, Shimazaki Toson, Shiba Ryotaro, Abe Kobo, or Hara Tamiki.

Any translation skills I possess have arisen as a result of having tenure in a Japanese public university. As a professor, I had to have a knowledge of spoken and written Japanese sufficient for handling the very delicate matter of promotions (a professor has to persuade all the other professors to vote in favor of the chosen candidate--and it is not only the candidate who suffers if the vote is not in favor). So for 25 of the past 30-odd years I have lived here, I was taught Japanese by several people, but reading Japanese by a very conservative professor (whose teaching method consisted entirely of having me read aloud the Japanese, make a verbal translation, and then a 'real' translation--of the kind of literature being written when Morihei Ueshiba was alive) to read and translate the same kind of Japanese as Morihei Ueshiba would have written.

If he had written any--and there's the rub. I have Japanese texts of everything in prose published under the name of Morihei Ueshiba and I am not convinced that he himself actually wrote any of it, including the text of the Budo volume.

However, be that as it may. I have not had the time to do it thoroughly, so I might be mistaken, but as far as I can see 六方, as in:

氣勢ニヲ充實シ足ヲ六方ニ開キ半身入身合氣ノ姿勢ヲ以テ敵ニ對ス

and

足ノ踏ミ方ニハ外六方内六方及外巴、内巴アリ練習ノ際ニ傅授ス

does not appear at all in the 1933 Budo Renshu manual and appears in the 1938 Budo volume only in the passages I have quoted above. I was surprised at its non-appearance in the 1933 Budo Renshu volume, since the Bieri translation occasionally uses the term hamni in English to explain some of the diagrams. Unless, of course, it is assumed that those for whom this manual was intended knew the concept already, for, of course, they knew they were doing Daito-ryu.

So, one can ask: why would Morihei Ueshiba have used the term 六方 only once, and in the introductory section of the Budo volume, which was a manual apparently intended for the use of the Japanese military (the above supposition being based on the introductions to the two English versions)?

Since I have the benefit of living in a Japanese language community, I consulted a few Japanese colleagues about the meaning of 六方. The answers were interesting, to say the least. They all answered that, given the way it was written, the term meant six directions and listed the directions. So there was no problem here. When I pressed them further and asked about the use of the term in kabuki, they invariably speculated that the six directions of roppo fumu meant that the kabuki actor was demonstrating his exhibitionist walking skill outwards, for everyone to see. In other words, the main direction was from the actor to the audience. There was no suggestion that六方was a two-way process, or a balance between two opposing directions. The only suggestion that it might be came from a colleague who practices Okinawan karate.

In the dictionary, an alternative reading of 六方 in kabuki is 六法, which has a completely different nuance, for 法 means law and『六法 』is the title of a volume of legal codes. This is curious, but my colleagues suggested that kabuki actors, like Noh actors, were not at liberty to vary the content of their training.

In a much earlier response to Hugh Beyer (Post # 96), I stated that,

"There might well be a connection with the use of the term roppo in kabuki and internal training. However, for this I would be more interested in looking at how kabuki actors were trained and in seeing if there is any link with the training of Noh actors, who also used a very distinctive way of walking."

In a later post (#106), Dan Harden mentioned a scroll from a school of Noh dance.

"I've read sections of a translated training scroll for a now defunt no dance school from the 1780's, in which it is stated to move while mainting six directions and it stated why. That it allows you to remain stable and maintain perfect balance in order to float acorss the floor."

It would be very good to know more details about this scroll, who wrote it and why, so that I can find the Japanese text, if it is publicly accessible.

Presumably, the same kind of stability and perfect balance would have been maintained by the kabuki actors, except that the latter do not really float when they make their roppo exits.

I have long thought that there is a link in the discourse on internal training between the initial discourses of Kukai on sanmitsu and shugyou and the martial arts, via shugendo, noh, sado, and later kabuki and other arts that became popular in the Genroku era.

In fact I wonder whether there was not a similar loss of 'training intensity' in the Genroku period, when supposedly exclusive 'samurai' arts became available to those who had never had the chance to do the intensive training required for the really exclusive internal knowledge.

Anyway, on this note I take my leave from AikiWeb for a while. I will be travelling in Europe and this will provide a welcome break from the forums.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2011, 08:45 AM   #123
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

A welcome break from the forums? Oh, that's cold.

Have a good trip, professor, and thank you for your contributions to this discussion. Between you, Dan, Chris, Josh, and the rest, I'm feeling all kinds of enlightened.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2011, 09:22 AM   #124
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
A welcome break from the forums? Oh, that's cold.

Have a good trip, professor, and thank you for your contributions to this discussion. Between you, Dan, Chris, Josh, and the rest, I'm feeling all kinds of enlightened.
You would not believe the number of posts I have constructed over the years but then thought better of submitting. Being away from the forums for a while helps one to keep a good sense of proportion and to realize that the world of aikido does not revolve around Aikiweb.

Best wishes,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2011, 09:25 AM   #125
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: kamae problem

Oh, yeah. Internet forums are like a box of chocolates. One's good, but too many and you can get really sick of them.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Greater and Lesser Problem R.A. Robertson Columns 7 01-05-2010 12:50 AM
Meaning of Shisei Dathan Camacho Language 16 07-15-2008 07:39 AM
Mu kamae kimusubi0 French 0 09-08-2006 11:46 PM
iwama kamae raul rodrigo Techniques 9 02-06-2006 04:52 AM
Thoughts on Kamae aikido_fudoshin General 8 09-12-2002 12:51 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:32 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate