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Old 07-25-2011, 03:58 PM   #1
Mario Tobias
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Is power really generated from the center?

I know there's been a lot of discussion with the importance of the "center" but I've looked at Okamoto Seigo shihan's vids of Daito ryu and he does similar aikido techniques more with wrist manipulation ( for a lot of techniques).

Sorry I know this is more of a daito ryu question but it looks like both arts are related...but hey I maybe mistaken....and I'm very curious.
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Old 07-25-2011, 04:03 PM   #2
Howard Popkin
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Mario,

I have met Okamoto Sensei a few times

Yes, all of his power is from the center. His wrist manipulations are supported by his center. They offer direction and softness to the movements.

Hope that helps !

Howard
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Old 07-25-2011, 04:37 PM   #3
crbateman
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

The center is the trunk of the tree... Very little is possible (or powerful) without a strong and controlled center.
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Old 07-25-2011, 04:51 PM   #4
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Very true.

In addition I have been told that power comes from the big toe...ie the ground.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 07-25-2011, 05:18 PM   #5
graham christian
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

And we haven't mentioned Koshi yet either, or kokyu.
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Old 07-25-2011, 05:50 PM   #6
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Hey....gotta respect the toe!

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 07-25-2011, 07:58 PM   #7
Mario Tobias
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Hey....gotta respect the toe!
yup, I got that one from shioda sensei's book.

the reason I asked the center question is for example 2 people holding your arms similar to ushiro waza with one person holding each arm pulling the arm back and both ukes are locked, how the heck would you move your center?

it seems to me the only part you can move is twisting the wrist inwards first then you can move the body? this is what I see from okamoto sensei's movement. he twists the wrists inwards, bends the elbow then throws both ukes. but videos dont show the "true" movements.

Last edited by Mario Tobias : 07-25-2011 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:11 PM   #8
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

I did a seminar with Endo sensei a few years ago where this was exactly what we were practicing. It was all moving from the centre, and not from the arms at all. I'm sure there are some videos of him teaching this somewhere.
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:30 PM   #9
Gorgeous George
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
I did a seminar with Endo sensei a few years ago where this was exactly what we were practicing. It was all moving from the centre, and not from the arms at all. I'm sure there are some videos of him teaching this somewhere.
The man is my hero.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbxWbehlB98
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Old 07-25-2011, 11:09 PM   #10
crbateman
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
the reason I asked the center question is for example 2 people holding your arms similar to ushiro waza with one person holding each arm pulling the arm back and both ukes are locked, how the heck would you move your center?

it seems to me the only part you can move is twisting the wrist inwards first then you can move the body? this is what I see from okamoto sensei's movement. he twists the wrists inwards, bends the elbow then throws both ukes. but videos dont show the "true" movements.
Try not to think in two dimensions. Your center can also be moved up and down, for instance. Rather than try to overpower uke by attempting to move that which he is focused on locking down, look instead to the other opportunities that his (or their) focus has left uncontrolled, like your feet or your hips. Almost any movement that you can make in a controlled fashion from the center can unbalance him (them), and this will lead to an opening for you to throw, counter, atemi, etc.
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Old 07-25-2011, 11:36 PM   #11
Janet Rosen
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Not arms moving or leading but center moving to place where arms are free to be connectors between you and him/them.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 07-25-2011, 11:40 PM   #12
Chris Li
 
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
yup, I got that one from shioda sensei's book.

the reason I asked the center question is for example 2 people holding your arms similar to ushiro waza with one person holding each arm pulling the arm back and both ukes are locked, how the heck would you move your center?

it seems to me the only part you can move is twisting the wrist inwards first then you can move the body? this is what I see from okamoto sensei's movement. he twists the wrists inwards, bends the elbow then throws both ukes. but videos dont show the "true" movements.
I think that you're talking about shifting your pelvic girdle rather than actually moving your center. The pelvic girdle is a big chunk of bone - great for support but not so good for generating power or initiating movement. The "center" resting above the pelvis is a large and complex mass of muscle and other stuff that can move quite well while your arms are locked.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:28 AM   #13
DH
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Why?
This is basic stuff, Graham. Can you show me something worth being a hero about? The real question is how can anyone claim to truly know aiki...do and not be past this stuff and on to more advanced things?
I'll assume for argument sake that Endo is past this stuff already and is only showing these basic concepts for beginners (I have no opinion, I have not felt the guy), but if that was a teaching tape or an attempt to teach, than well...!
I mean, come on dude, seriously?
I say again, find someone who can do it, more importantly find someone who has students who are very, very good and thus hopefully they can actually teach it.
Just say'n
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-26-2011 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:01 AM   #14
Lee Salzman
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Why?
This is basic stuff, Graham. Can you show me something worth being a hero about? The real question is how can anyone claim to truly know aiki...do and not be past this stuff and on to more advanced things?
I'll assume for argument sake that Endo is past this stuff already and is only showing these basic concepts for beginners (I have no opinion, I have not felt the guy), but if that was a teaching tape or an attempt to teach, than well...!
I mean, come on dude, seriously?
I say again, find someone who can do it, more importantly find someone who has students who are very, very good and thus hopefully they can actually teach it.
Just say'n
Dan
Wishful thinking, man. I would kill to have had an aikido teacher who took the time to even explain things on that level for a couple years. But even had I, I don't think I could have interpreted what he is doing in the initial part of that video based on what he is saying, because I had no framework, and what he is saying doesn't seem to offer much insight into it either even now. How do you send power down? He sure as hell ain't saying there. I didn't even quite get it when you outright showed it and explained it until I saw it from yet another viewpoint, then it finally sank into my thick skull.

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 07-26-2011 at 02:05 AM.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:44 AM   #15
Lee Salzman
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote: View Post
Try not to think in two dimensions. Your center can also be moved up and down, for instance. Rather than try to overpower uke by attempting to move that which he is focused on locking down, look instead to the other opportunities that his (or their) focus has left uncontrolled, like your feet or your hips. Almost any movement that you can make in a controlled fashion from the center can unbalance him (them), and this will lead to an opening for you to throw, counter, atemi, etc.
A quibble... does the center move up or down, or do you move up or down utilizing it?
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:37 AM   #16
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

when you truly are the center, you will not move, the earth moves away from you

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 07-26-2011, 05:33 AM   #17
crbateman
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
A quibble... does the center move up or down, or do you move up or down utilizing it?
Center leads; body follows.
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Old 07-26-2011, 05:57 AM   #18
Lee Salzman
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote: View Post
Center leads; body follows.
What does it do to lead, and what does everything else do to follow?
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Old 07-26-2011, 06:11 AM   #19
Janet Rosen
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
What does it do to lead, and what does everything else do to follow?
It literally moves. Not metaphorically, but literally.

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-26-2011, 06:50 AM   #20
Lee Salzman
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
It literally moves. Not metaphorically, but literally.
Yes, but how? It matters. So I would just like to ask... how?
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Old 07-26-2011, 07:15 AM   #21
phitruong
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Yes, but how? It matters. So I would just like to ask... how?
it's one of those things in the domain of IHTBF. it takes days to describe if at all possible, but takes a few minutes to show.

now for those who went to Ikeda seminar or going to, when he said "move your inside", he meant move your center. i thought i wrote in one of the thread about moving your center in discussion with Budd. Budd! where are you dude?

as far as Endo sensei went, i believed he lacked the vocabulary to describe what is going on inside his body so he talked about "feeling", at least that what the translators translated (which could be absolutely wrong). Like Ikeda sensei, he doesn't have a systematically way to train the body, at least he hadn't share that part. so there is a big gap: solo training to build the body. most of what shown by both Endo sensei and Ikeda sensei are the basic applications, not full application of techniques (small part of it devoted to full techniques).

for those who have exposed to IP/IS, what Endo sensei and Ikeda sensei demonstrated should be pretty obvious and understandable even if the language doesn't quite match.
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Old 07-26-2011, 07:26 AM   #22
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
...that Endo is past this stuff already and is only showing these basic concepts for beginners (I have no opinion, I have not felt the guy), but if that was a teaching tape or an attempt to teach, than well...!
Yes it is one of twoh DVDs teaching very basic exercises, "modules" (?), movements ...
All of them are done with one or two partners, some of them want to guide into ones own body, some are about conncting with another body, some try to lead into the aikido waza.

There are no solo movements on the DVDs. And as far as I understand it, it seems to be Endos way of teaching to start at the "outside" and by understandning ones experiences to go deeper and deeper to the "interior", the inner body.
(Which is different from what Ikeda sensei did last weekend. But they meet.)

So Endo sensei doesn't talk about center, doesn't show what to do with one's center and he doesn't teach how to move the center (inside I mean, not hips or legs or something). But my experience is that his practice leads to exactly those things.

This is why I am so curious about IS/ IP: What Dan and ohters practice is different. But obviouly there are some relations or whatever. I just don't understand by now.

Much to learn I still have ...
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Old 07-26-2011, 07:37 AM   #23
Lee Salzman
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
it's one of those things in the domain of IHTBF. it takes days to describe if at all possible, but takes a few minutes to show.

now for those who went to Ikeda seminar or going to, when he said "move your inside", he meant move your center. i thought i wrote in one of the thread about moving your center in discussion with Budd. Budd! where are you dude?

as far as Endo sensei went, i believed he lacked the vocabulary to describe what is going on inside his body so he talked about "feeling", at least that what the translators translated (which could be absolutely wrong). Like Ikeda sensei, he doesn't have a systematically way to train the body, at least he hadn't share that part. so there is a big gap: solo training to build the body. most of what shown by both Endo sensei and Ikeda sensei are the basic applications, not full application of techniques (small part of it devoted to full techniques).

for those who have exposed to IP/IS, what Endo sensei and Ikeda sensei demonstrated should be pretty obvious and understandable even if the language doesn't quite match.
Certainly IHTBF if the goal is to teach it to the extent of allowing someone to reproduce it. But in a discussion like this, with a question posed by the OP such as it is, we can at least give a plausible and logical explanation for what we mean to at least convince him to seek out the feeling in the first place, rather than a canyon full of doubt.

Let's say I want to throw a football (American). I have never seen someone throw a football. Someone tells me, "Okay, the arm moves, the ball follows." Oh... Let me go start pointing my arm somewhere, it's moving right? That football will start following my arm any day now. The arm is leading? What am I doing wrong here? This does not really inspire confidence in me. Oh, I was supposed to hold the ball, you say? Wait, you mean I'm not supposed to hold the ball like an ice cream cone? Hmm, I was supposed to let go of the ball too, I thought the problem in the first place was that I needed to hold it?

The "move your inside" thing is especially frustrating 'cause, well, in the end you can only see what effect it had, but the way Ikeda does it, you can't really see how it does it. It's like seeing the football fly across the field, and knowing a guy threw it, but not being able to see the guy visibly throwing the ball. He tells you just "throw the ball" and then we're back to... how? I've been to Ikeda's seminars long ago, and in the end, that's about all I left with, big giant "how?"s.

I think we can simultaneously raise the level of discourse here, while still respecting the limitations of IHBTF or whatever other 5 letter acronym that gets dragged out. Some of us have already felt it and still have questions, so now what?
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Old 07-26-2011, 07:41 AM   #24
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Is it power or connection that you are really looking for?
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Old 07-26-2011, 07:45 AM   #25
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Is power really generated from the center?

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Yes, but how? It matters. So I would just like to ask... how?
How about What? Something has got to move "the centre", so what moves it?
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