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Old 07-21-2011, 02:14 PM   #101
DH
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Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
I've heard people talk of 6 directions as 8 directions and vice versa, so it isn't unheard of. There were a number of posts a few years back where people said something like 6/8 directions.

6= X Y Z axis, I believe the other 2 are 45 degree angles though I do not know if there is consistent references as to which axis or multiple axes on which these 45 degree angles are. Granted if you have an XYZ axis as a reference you can have unlimited angles, but 6/8 are essentially the same thing.

I'm not 100% sure if I understand what Graham means by spirals. It would be inaccurate for me to say that I can utilize a spiral and for a long time I thought it simply meant twisting the limbs as a result of locally engaging the muscles of the arms and legs to twist the limbs.
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Quote:
I was actually taught much about the spiral and teach it to this day. All part of applying the principles of Aikido correctly. From the spiral of sankyo to the spiral of tai sabake, to the use to using it as centripetal force to the use of using it with centrifugal force and the ability to change it at will.
There are different terms for essentially the same concepts from the ICMA, CMA, JMA and FMA
Six directions or eight (to include the saggital plane) can include all angles to fill the Aiki ball or taiji sphere. Some guys are trying to convince people there was a common vocabulary for the same things around the world. Pretty presumptuous I'd say. Was there commonality in principle? Yes. Terminology? Not always.

We could say that twisting the limbs in a coordinated way with breath training might be useful, but that isn't spiraling. And Sankyo as spiraling? turning around an axis in centripetal force or centrifugal force? Nope.
Graham posted vids and asked for comments. I'd say it's pretty obvious that Graham is not using spiral energy. The entire description of happo undo and what it meant and his own detailed explanation of cutting and turning pretty much nails what quite a few of you already know-that he has zero understanding of what Ueshiba means by maintaining six directions. As a concept his understanding is matched with the body movement he displays; a typical modern/external art person; shifting weight side to side, one side weighted (dead give away) using the hips and shoulders in-line for power and not dantian, and rocking on his feet from load etc. Were you to examine certain older arts (particularly with heavy weapons), you would see straightforward training that helped eliminate much of that yet you will only see sparse references to terminology.
All of this points to common attributes that demonstrate a connected body and they were trained as such. While some shared common references and teachings, others, had the teaching but not the terminology.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-21-2011, 02:46 PM   #102
graham christian
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Re: Moving with your center

Mmmm. I'm glad you said that Dan. That tells me all I need to know.

Cheers.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-21-2011, 02:48 PM   #103
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Re: Moving with your center

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
what are the eight directions?
Jason,

Being an old Ki Society guy, I thought that would be obvious to you. In my recollection, there was a happo undo drill in Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido. The eight directions are all on the horizontal plane and they rotate around as in a compass 45 degrees apart. The undo can be done with bokken as in happo giri or without weapons as in happo ikkyo.

Greg
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Old 07-21-2011, 02:54 PM   #104
gregstec
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Re: Moving with your center

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Jason,

Being an old Ki Society guy, I thought that would be obvious to you. In my recollection, there was a happo undo drill in Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido. The eight directions are all on the horizontal plane and they rotate around as in a compass 45 degrees apart. The undo can be done with bokken as in happo giri or without weapons as in happo ikkyo.

Greg
Just saw that Graham answered before me - mental note: read all remaining posts before posting

Greg
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Old 07-21-2011, 02:59 PM   #105
chillzATL
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Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Jason,

Being an old Ki Society guy, I thought that would be obvious to you. In my recollection, there was a happo undo drill in Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido. The eight directions are all on the horizontal plane and they rotate around as in a compass 45 degrees apart. The undo can be done with bokken as in happo giri or without weapons as in happo ikkyo.

Greg
I wasn't even thinking in direction (see what I did there )!. I was thinking it some derivation of six directions as was being mentioned and not THAT eight directions. Apart from the undo that we do before every class we most commonly do it as the eight move jo kata.
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Old 07-21-2011, 04:07 PM   #106
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Re: Moving with your center

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Mmmm. I'm glad you said that Dan. That tells me all I need to know.

Cheers.

Regards.G.
It's pretty cut and dry, Graham. Neither your "opinion" or mine, matters much. Uesbiba knew what he was talking about and it is matched in the other arts he considered. Happo giri is external and is in koratee as well as a host of arts that have not one thing to do with aiki.
Dan
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Old 07-21-2011, 04:44 PM   #107
graham christian
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Re: Moving with your center

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It's pretty cut and dry, Graham. Neither your "opinion" or mine, matters much. Uesbiba knew what he was talking about and it is matched in the other arts he considered. Happo giri is external and is in koratee as well as a host of arts that have not one thing to do with aiki.
Dan
Who's talking Aiki? I'm talking AIKIDO.

I will never use such terminology as internal and external. I find it limited.

You stick to your AIKI and I'll stick to my Aikido.

I watched a short video explaining aiki only yesterday. Never seen that one before. As with many martial arts I find them interesting in their own way. Not my way though. So enjoy and do well in your way. All this significance is boring.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-21-2011, 05:26 PM   #108
gregstec
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Re: Moving with your center

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I wasn't even thinking in direction (see what I did there )!. I was thinking it some derivation of six directions as was being mentioned and not THAT eight directions. Apart from the undo that we do before every class we most commonly do it as the eight move jo kata.
Yeah, after I posted I kind of figured that was where your head was - I believe Graham was referring to an external movement direction and you were thinking internal energy direction - both being a subject of directions, but totally different things altogether - it is important that all in the conversation have the same point of reference so things do not get out of context

However, with all that said, it is possible to have the internal six direction energies with the external happo directions - let's see, that would make it the 24 direction undo Actually, and IMO, that should be the proper focus of the happo undo - moving in those eight directions while maintaining the six internal energy extensions.

Greg
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Old 07-21-2011, 05:30 PM   #109
gregstec
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Re: Moving with your center

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Who's talking Aiki? I'm talking AIKIDO.

I will never use such terminology as internal and external. I find it limited.

You stick to your AIKI and I'll stick to my Aikido.

I watched a short video explaining aiki only yesterday. Never seen that one before. As with many martial arts I find them interesting in their own way. Not my way though. So enjoy and do well in your way. All this significance is boring.

Regards.G.
Graham, buddy, step back and just look at what you said - you just segregated aiki from Aikido - if there is no aiki in Aikido, there is no Aikido since Aikido is the way of aiki.

Greg
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Old 07-21-2011, 05:32 PM   #110
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Re: Moving with your center

Thank you Dan and Hunter for the information, I wasn't much aware of the complimentary eight-direction model. So if I understand correctly in addition to the six orthogonal XYZ vectors (six harmonies), this model accounts for eight directions from the origin through the center (e.g. phi 45, theta 45) of each octant of the sphere.
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Old 07-21-2011, 05:42 PM   #111
gregstec
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Re: Moving with your center

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Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
Thank you Dan and Hunter for the information, I wasn't much aware of the complimentary eight-direction model. So if I understand correctly in addition to the six orthogonal XYZ vectors (six harmonies), this model accounts for eight directions from the origin through the center (e.g. phi 45, theta 45) of each octant of the sphere.
Hi Gerardo, thanks for presenting more complexity into an already complex point IMO, the six directions are simply base points of reference for extension of energy from the center - in reality, there are multiple six directional opposing forces in the X,Y,Z dimensions as we move. Now that should be clear as mud to all

Greg
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Old 07-21-2011, 05:51 PM   #112
graham christian
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Re: Moving with your center

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Graham, buddy, step back and just look at what you said - you just segregated aiki from Aikido - if there is no aiki in Aikido, there is no Aikido since Aikido is the way of aiki.

Greg
Hi Greg.
Depends on your definition of Aiki or come to that Aikido. I segregated the Aiki being mentioned from my Aikido yes. For those who want that type of Aiki, good.

If you step back you'll find there's no 'do' in it.ha,ha.

Cordially.G.
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Old 07-21-2011, 06:06 PM   #113
gregstec
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Re: Moving with your center

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Greg.
Depends on your definition of Aiki or come to that Aikido. I segregated the Aiki being mentioned from my Aikido yes. For those who want that type of Aiki, good.

If you step back you'll find there's no 'do' in it.ha,ha.

Cordially.G.
Well, buddy, we have been down this difference of perception path before, so, no need to bore the rest of the folks here with our back and forth on the points - so, live and let live - and the best to you

Greg
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Old 07-21-2011, 06:13 PM   #114
graham christian
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Re: Moving with your center

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Well, buddy, we have been down this difference of perception path before, so, no need to bore the rest of the folks here with our back and forth on the points - so, live and let live - and the best to you

Greg
Quite. That's why your comment surprised me. Thought it was deja vu.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-21-2011, 06:42 PM   #115
gregstec
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Re: Moving with your center

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Quite. That's why your comment surprised me. Thought it was deja vu.

Regards.G.
Just did not realize our differences were as basic as no aiki in Aikido - that is all

Greg
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Old 07-21-2011, 06:48 PM   #116
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Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
what are the eight directions?
From a linguistic perspective, I think 8 directions has been slightly lost in translation. While the Japanese happo (八方) does technically mean 8 directions, it is usually used to mean 360 degrees, particularly in older language. You see it in terms like happo-bijin (八方美人), which is a person who tries to please everyone, and as such, ends up being unreliable. They do not try to please people in 8 specific directions.

I would also like to make a small comment on this mini-feud between Marc and Dan. I don't know either of you, and I don't know how good you are. Quite frankly I don't care. I'm quite sure that you are both much more skilled than I am at any rate. However, I wouldn't want to train with either of you, if you are going to get into this sort of exchange on the internet.
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Old 07-21-2011, 06:53 PM   #117
graham christian
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Re: Moving with your center

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Just did not realize our differences were as basic as no aiki in Aikido - that is all

Greg
Oh dear. Plenty of Ai and plenty of Ki. All following a path. Thus plenty of Aiki.

Thought you knew that. Oh well. Back to my writing.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-21-2011, 07:05 PM   #118
graham christian
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Re: Moving with your center

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
From a linguistic perspective, I think 8 directions has been slightly lost in translation. While the Japanese happo (八方) does technically mean 8 directions, it is usually used to mean 360 degrees, particularly in older language. You see it in terms like happo-bijin (八方美人), which is a person who tries to please everyone, and as such, ends up being unreliable. They do not try to please people in 8 specific directions.

I would also like to make a small comment on this mini-feud between Marc and Dan. I don't know either of you, and I don't know how good you are. Quite frankly I don't care. I'm quite sure that you are both much more skilled than I am at any rate. However, I wouldn't want to train with either of you, if you are going to get into this sort of exchange on the internet.
Robin. That's interesting but as I said it leads to all directions, the body getting used to it etc. as in 360degrees. Remember this is the way its used in this particular subject, ie: Aikido and thus comes under it's nomanclature.

I believe there is a term called happo-baraki within Aikido which means to be totally aware of ones surroundings when used in Aikido, hence my reference to zanshin.

One more minor detail, if you don't want to start a little feud of your own I would suggest you remove the name Marc from the above. A genuine mistake.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-21-2011, 07:15 PM   #119
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Re: Moving with your center

oops... it won't let me edit it. Sorry I got confused with the names. I meant you Graham although I think Marc has been standing to the side fanning the flames. In any case, it is unbecoming for all three of you.

Last edited by robin_jet_alt : 07-21-2011 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:06 PM   #120
hughrbeyer
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Re: Moving with your center

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
oops... it won't let me edit it. Sorry I got confused with the names. I meant you Graham although I think Marc has been standing to the side fanning the flames. In any case, it is unbecoming for all three of you.
I must be weird.

These are the threads I learn something from. There's no shame in disagreeing, and none in disagreeing vehemently. This stuff matters, right? You care about it? So why should disagreements not be vehement?

So we now know that Graham's 8 directions have nothing to do with Dan's 6 directions, yes? Because they don't at a minimum even consider the up/down dimension. Doesn't that seem of some passing interest to you?

And the spirals that Graham talks about, the external spirals visible in sankyo, have nothing to do with the spirals formed through the body that Dan talks about? (Dan will correct me in his usual gentle fashion, if I misrepresent him. ) Isn't that an important thing to know?

Dan's discussion of what he sees in Graham's videos? (Sorry, Graham-san, you're being used as data here, nothing to do with you personally.) Pure gold. I quote:
  • shifting weight side to side, one side weighted
  • using the hips and shoulders in-line for power and not dantian
  • rocking on his feet from load

Good, great, let me start looking for that, not least in my own technique.

And this: "Were you to examine certain older arts (particularly with heavy weapons), you would see straightforward training that helped eliminate much of that" -- Which I'm now connecting with my sword training and thinking: hmmm.

Arigato goma-somethingorother to all the participants and please, continue.
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:19 PM   #121
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Re: Moving with your center

Hugh,

You two can't be too far away from each other. If Dan would have you, you should find the time to make it over his way and check it out first hand. Save yourself a lot of wondering and wandering.
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:28 PM   #122
hughrbeyer
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Re: Moving with your center

No wondering, no wandering. I've met Dan and regularly train with people who train with him. I just take every opportunity to squeeze the sponge. :-)
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Old 07-21-2011, 10:07 PM   #123
Lee Salzman
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Re: Moving with your center

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
So we now know that Graham's 8 directions have nothing to do with Dan's 6 directions, yes? Because they don't at a minimum even consider the up/down dimension. Doesn't that seem of some passing interest to you?
If it were just a matter of adding jumping-jacks to happo-undo, would it be an important point of discussion at all? One is talking about directions of stabilization or force generation that come in pairs - i.e. for some parts to extend up in space, others must extend down against something, or for some parts to sink down with the aid of gravity, other parts must rise up. The other is talking about just a movement exercise. They're just not on the same page, entirely different chapters of the book.
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Old 07-22-2011, 04:59 AM   #124
hughrbeyer
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Re: Moving with your center

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
If it were just a matter of adding jumping-jacks to happo-undo, would it be an important point of discussion at all?
No, and if it were a matter of adding pink fluffy boas to your Aikido waza, it wouldn't be important either. Since it's not, it is.

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
They're just not on the same page, entirely different chapters of the book.
Which is what I picked up from the discussion. Maybe obvious in retrospect, but it does mean that if you say, "6 directions, 8 directions, whatever" you really don't know what you're talking about.
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Old 07-22-2011, 05:20 AM   #125
Lee Salzman
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Re: Moving with your center

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Which is what I picked up from the discussion. Maybe obvious in retrospect, but it does mean that if you say, "6 directions, 8 directions, whatever" you really don't know what you're talking about.
What is funny is despite both terms referencing different things entirely, they both represent a bias towards the artificial delineation of the body. It's more important how they are being utilized than which ones you choose and eventually you have to graduate to all the spaces between. You need to start somewhere but can't rely on beginner crutches forever. So, 6 directions, 8 directions, whatever, eh?
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