Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-19-2011, 10:50 PM   #51
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 510
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So instead of just blindly talking about "moving with your center", shouldn't some of the questioning/commentary be around the question of "why is moving from the middle an advantage"?
As far as this thread is concerned, the advantage question is off-topic. The OP's sensei said to do it.

BUT-- that's a great idea for a new thread so I will now start one called "Why move from the center?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 07:20 AM   #52
Graham Farquhar
Dojo: Ki federation of GB
Location: Reading
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 38
United Kingdom
Offline
Talking Re: Moving with your center

[quote=Dan Harden;288142]Heh heh heh
Okay, I'll play. Moving from your center imparts a certain conditioning there. One of the giveaways of those who really don't get it is their non-conditioned loose fat belllies and stiff bodies, which rock their frame on to their heels and outer edges of their feet when they receive load- which defies any real capabilities to use dantian beyond a hopeful intellectual curiosity. It's good to get your hands on some accomplished people to see and feel the difference. [/QUOTE

Having recently had the very unexpected opportunity to get my hands on an accomplished person it was a real eye opener. Like being back at the beginning ( actually had a white belt on too - which was very apt ) and getting your mind round something like this. For those who have an open mind to learning it is one of the best feelings - one that I want to repeat again in the not too distant future.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 09:25 AM   #53
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Graham Farquhar wrote: View Post
[Having recently had the very unexpected opportunity to get my hands on an accomplished person it was a real eye opener. Like being back at the beginning ( actually had a white belt on too - which was very apt ) and getting your mind round something like this. For those who have an open mind to learning it is one of the best feelings - one that I want to repeat again in the not too distant future.
Exactly why I recommended in another thread that people go see someone with a world-acknowledged level of accomplishment in order to get a feel for what the "Real Stuff" feels like. That's what I did as soon as China opened its doors and it gave me the ability to avoid a lot of time-wasting later on.

Notice that I said "feel" (well, and see, of course)... the development and usage of the body and movement is quite different in real experts. The reason I say "feel" is that while they're generally very friendly, etc., they seldom reveal much information. I was just talking to a friend of mine about a bunch of Americans that have been following one reasonably knowledgeable teacher in California for 20 years and they're basically about where they were 20 years ago, although they know a number of nice-looking forms now.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 09:35 AM   #54
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,828
United_States
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
So Mary, how do you move with center? Let's get back on track.
It's just mechanics. It doesn't have to be anything ethereal.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 10:59 AM   #55
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

I've been told in dance classes to move from the core rather than the legs or the arms, and let your arms/legs move because they're attached to the core. They didn't mean anything mysterious about it...

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 07-20-2011 at 11:02 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 11:21 AM   #56
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I've been told in dance classes to move from the core rather than the legs or the arms, and let your arms/legs move because they're attached to the core. They didn't mean anything mysterious about it...
Did they explain how they were connected to center? was it a hard connection with tense muscles or more of a soft connection with the slack taken out of the ligaments, tendons, and fascia?

Thanks

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 11:25 AM   #57
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

They just showed it, and danced with you and let you feel it, and watched and felt what you were doing and told you if you were doing what they meant. So no, they didn't go into anatomical detail.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 12:15 PM   #58
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
They just showed it, and danced with you and let you feel it, and watched and felt what you were doing and told you if you were doing what they meant. So no, they didn't go into anatomical detail.
So, it really had to be felt to truly understand it

thanks for the response

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 12:16 PM   #59
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
So, it really had to be felt to truly understand it

thanks for the response

Greg
how about putting up a video???

/sarcasm

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 12:33 PM   #60
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
how about putting up a video???

/sarcasm

It's in the mail
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 01:11 PM   #61
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
So, it really had to be felt to truly understand it

thanks for the response

Greg
LOL. Well, maybe. But it didn't feel particularly strange or new or counterintuitive or anything, it was more or less like walking....

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 07-20-2011 at 01:25 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 01:37 PM   #62
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 693
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
It's just mechanics. It doesn't have to be anything ethereal.
quantum mechanics is just mechanics too. but on a different order..
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 01:55 PM   #63
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

In 'defence' of Mary (not that she needs defending) if you understand what mechanics means the of course it's all to do with mechanics.

Mechanics are the result of principles naturally or can be constructed to fit principles for optimum usage.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 01:59 PM   #64
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 510
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
They just showed it, and danced with you and let you feel it, and watched and felt what you were doing and told you if you were doing what they meant. So no, they didn't go into anatomical detail.
So.. basically like most aikido classes around the world (including the OP's).

I think we need more people like the OP to say, "thanks, but that really isn't helping me do it or understand." I should have been more vocal especially when someone once said at a dojo I visited, "you'll just get it someday."
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 02:09 PM   #65
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
So.. basically like most aikido classes around the world (including the OP's).

I think we need more people like the OP to say, "thanks, but that really isn't helping me do it or understand." I should have been more vocal especially when someone once said at a dojo I visited, "you'll just get it someday."
On serious note, you are exactly right - more needs to be shown and coached in this area to get that mind and body coordinated, which is crucial for establishing the foundation for effective aiki.

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 03:07 PM   #66
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
It's just mechanics. It doesn't have to be anything ethereal.
Hi Mary,

I understand that perfectly. I was curious to hear you describe those mechanics.

Or, come visit us in Spencer, Mass sometime. I can show you what I mean and you can show me what you mean.

Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 03:25 PM   #67
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Hi Mary,

I understand that perfectly. I was curious to hear you describe those mechanics.

Or, come visit us in Spencer, Mass sometime. I can show you what I mean and you can show me what you mean.

Rob
It's been suggested several times. I offered to go there as well. It's never gonna happen, Rob.
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 04:59 PM   #68
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,828
United_States
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It's been suggested several times. I offered to go there as well. It's never gonna happen, Rob.
Dan
Don't make this personal, Dan. I have reservations that I have refrained from mentioning publicly out of consideration for you. Don't try to take advantage of my silence.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 05:33 PM   #69
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Don't make this personal, Dan. I have reservations that I have refrained from mentioning publicly out of consideration for you. Don't try to take advantage of my silence.
Where do you see anything personal?
Quote:
It's been suggested several times. I offered to go there as well. It's never gonna happen, Rob.
Dan
Two of the invitations have been discussed here on aikiweb, though if I recall correctly, they involved Ron and Mary.
Where do you see any need to bring up your feelings about me?
Where do you see the need to go personal and mention why, at all?
Is this the formal reply from your group AFTER your group had asked me to come and share our aiki together, and no one replied to my email?
If so, it would have probably been more professional to let me know of your reservations by email, instead of letting me know by choosing to use aikiweb to state publicly that you have some sort of negative feelings.

It's sometimes difficult to navigate various people's standards. You'll understand that I now have reservations of my own.
Oh well.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-20-2011 at 05:48 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 08:21 PM   #70
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
It's just mechanics. It doesn't have to be anything ethereal.
And another attempt to get the train back on the rails goes down in flames.

Does it strike nobody else that the OP's question is very odd? The ratio of people who get on the mat with overly stiff arms to those who get on the mat with overly limp arms is, it seems to me, about 1000:0.

I'd sort of like to hear from the OP if she's tried any of the advice and how it went for her.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 08:37 PM   #71
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 510
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
And another attempt to get the train back on the rails goes down in flames.

Does it strike nobody else that the OP's question is very odd? The ratio of people who get on the mat with overly stiff arms to those who get on the mat with overly limp arms is, it seems to me, about 1000:0.

I'd sort of like to hear from the OP if she's tried any of the advice and how it went for her.
I would like to hear too.
Yes I thought it was pretty much the opposite problem from most folks. But, in theory it is equally as big an issue.. we just seem to generally see a bias toward stiff. But this is EXACTLY what should happen if people are told to relax, but are not given something specific to replace what the arms were doing.
So I am glad that we can see the one in 10,000 threads where this rare thing is actually happening.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 09:22 PM   #72
Lee Salzman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 405
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
I would like to hear too.
Yes I thought it was pretty much the opposite problem from most folks. But, in theory it is equally as big an issue.. we just seem to generally see a bias toward stiff. But this is EXACTLY what should happen if people are told to relax, but are not given something specific to replace what the arms were doing.
So I am glad that we can see the one in 10,000 threads where this rare thing is actually happening.
Is it really that odd, especially for someone who has been training a bit? But the idea of Tohei Senseii's ki principles, which I was ironically more exposed to through my various ASU teachers than through the one Ki Society student (who had trained under Imaizumi Sensei), but to quote:

Quote:
1. Keep one point.
2. Relax completely.
3. Keep weight underside.
4. Extend ki.
Is it any wonder that, hearing those things, as random quips from a teacher among others, a student might get confused, take them literally, and go to extremes that send them shooting in entirely unproductive directions? As a set of principles, they are not very informative and rather unbalanced in their attachments to one extreme over another.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 09:45 PM   #73
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Is it really that odd, especially for someone who has been training a bit? But the idea of Tohei Senseii's ki principles, which I was ironically more exposed to through my various ASU teachers than through the one Ki Society student (who had trained under Imaizumi Sensei), but to quote:

Is it any wonder that, hearing those things, as random quips from a teacher among others, a student might get confused, take them literally, and go to extremes that send them shooting in entirely unproductive directions? As a set of principles, they are not very informative and rather unbalanced in their attachments to one extreme over another.
Hi Lee.
May I say hearing those four principles as quips would indeed lead to confusion so no argument there.

Taking them as a set of principles however then your view is rather confusing. It shows me your lack of understanding of principle and of their relationship to each other.

I don't blame you as such I merely correct you. The fault lies purely in the art of teaching, not in the principles.

If O'Sensei himself had a weakness, a something he had yet to improve and learn, it was how to communicate (teach) the principles he knew in such a way that others could understand and grasp.

Now that's not a put down it's a facet one only comes across when they have realized and can demonstrate something and the others want to know how they do that. Sounds simple but I assure you it isn't for you are now trying to teach something that has become so simple to you yet others get confused if you tell them it's simplicity.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 10:44 PM   #74
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,114
United_States
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Does it strike nobody else that the OP's question is very odd? The ratio of people who get on the mat with overly stiff arms to those who get on the mat with overly limp arms is, it seems to me, about 1000:0.
It did strike me as uncommon, but I've trained with a person who I would describe as almost completely limp. No amount of asking to try with more force would yield more than the slightest sense of contact even. I've felt it when people just grab on lightly and don't do anything; what I'm remembering was somehow even less than that.
I'd like to hear more from the OP as well though.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2011, 11:04 PM   #75
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
It did strike me as uncommon, but I've trained with a person who I would describe as almost completely limp. No amount of asking to try with more force would yield more than the slightest sense of contact even. I've felt it when people just grab on lightly and don't do anything; what I'm remembering was somehow even less than that.
I'd like to hear more from the OP as well though.
When they noodle... stuff their arms into their bodies and then use their arms to throw their bodies. There's no point in letting their lack of understanding be reinforced. Keep throwing them till they get that, that type of "relaxed" is nonsense.
You see some aikido people lumbering around, flat on their feet, and sliding their feet all over the place with their arms dead. It's just plain stupid, and it's not low level, it's no level... of understanding.
Relax completely and extend ki is one of the poorest or incomplete descriptions I have ever heard. It has led to a whole bunch of people limping around or flexing their arms under stress because they don't know how to connect to their center..
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-20-2011 at 11:19 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Trusting center. Trusting god. Mary Eastland Spiritual 4 02-17-2011 05:48 PM
Off Center, and into the Zone R.A. Robertson Columns 2 12-18-2009 03:32 PM
The Mysteryf the Moving Center Daniel Kempling Introductions 0 01-10-2006 05:02 PM
Bokken Training feck Weapons 29 05-30-2005 02:53 PM
Systema Seminar with Vladimir Vasiliev, Part 1 aikibaka131 Seminars 2 07-22-2003 01:45 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:32 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate