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Old 06-17-2011, 12:47 PM   #1
dapidmini
Dojo: Surabaya Aikido Dojo
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kamae problem

in my dojo, we're taught that the correct kamae is "L" shaped (front foot points forward and rear foot point outward). my dojo teaches aikikai aikido. is it the correct kamae? I've used the search function of this forum but I found nothing for the keyword "kamae".

anyway, there's this not-so-new student in my dojo that refuses to do the correct kamae as instructed. he says that if we stand that way, it will take more time to do a technique because we'll need to change foot. I've tried to explain to him that that's what various ashisabakis are for but he won't listen. I'm not the instructor and I don't like to waste my time saying the same thing over and over, so I just let him do as he likes(he stands with both feet adjacent sideways because he thinks that will allow him to move anywhere better).

btw, he's only joined our dojo for a couple months, brand new to aikikai aikido, only comes to train occasionally because of his supposedly tight work schedule (2-3 times a month), and have studied tomiki for less than 2 years (when I asked for the specific time-span, he said not too long but less than a couple years).

have you guys experienced something like this? how do you handle it?

Last edited by dapidmini : 06-17-2011 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 06-17-2011, 01:06 PM   #2
Marie Noelle Fequiere
 
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Re: kamae problem

Look, as far as I can tell, this is the king of guy you don't need to waste your time arguing with. Let him do as he pleases, and let him find out by himself who knows more, him or Sensei.
Meanwhile, use your precious time helping those who come to class with their cup empty, and are eager to have their money and time's worth of learning.
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Old 06-17-2011, 01:14 PM   #3
dapidmini
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Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Marie Noelle Fequiere wrote: View Post
...eager to have their money and time's worth of learning.
like this very much
and since you didn't mention anything about the kamae, I'll take it that it's correct?

oh and also, I need to correct my first post: he's joined our dojo for 4 months now.

Last edited by dapidmini : 06-17-2011 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 06-17-2011, 01:40 PM   #4
Janet Rosen
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Re: kamae problem

I agree with suggestion to leave him alone and let Sensei correct as he sees fit.
The correct kamei in any dojo is the one the dojo's chief instructor shows.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 06-17-2011, 01:46 PM   #5
Shadowfax
 
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Re: kamae problem

His training and how he does things is between him and your sensei. Unless he is doing something that is risking an injury to you I would just ignore it and keep training. Your teacher will take care of it if it is something he feels the need to address.
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Old 06-17-2011, 02:27 PM   #6
ninjaqutie
 
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Re: kamae problem

Yours is correct for your dojo. Other places do things differently....

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 07-17-2011, 09:15 PM   #7
patf
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Re: kamae problem

My aikido sensei says L kamae is most stable for Aikido.
* I believe him

My Iaido sensei says that parallel kamae is fastest for changing direction for sword work.
* I believe him

My chiropractor says that L kamae is bad for my hips.
* I believe him
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Old 07-17-2011, 11:04 PM   #8
Mario Tobias
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Re: kamae problem

whenever I encounter a problem like this I always remember my sensei saying "too noisy! no talk! just train! I am teacha!"
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:27 AM   #9
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
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Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I agree with suggestion to leave him alone and let Sensei correct as he sees fit.
The correct kamei in any dojo is the one the dojo's chief instructor shows.
Dear Janet,
If the instructor shows the incorrect footwork is this correct?I think not.Correct foot work is correct footwork.Incorrect footwork is not correct footwork.
As far as a beginner is concerned its important to get the footwork correct to avoid problems later.Once a bad/good habit is embodied in the student its very difficult to alter things.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:31 AM   #10
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
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Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Patrick Fitzpatrick wrote: View Post
My aikido sensei says L kamae is most stable for Aikido.
* I believe him

My Iaido sensei says that parallel kamae is fastest for changing direction for sword work.
* I believe him

My chiropractor says that L kamae is bad for my hips.
* I believe him
Dear Patrick,
Your comparing apples to oranges.Aikido /Iaido are not the same posture.Your chiropractor may well have an opinion here based on financial considerations.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:16 AM   #11
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: kamae problem

The stance in Aikido is pretty unique for a reason (compared to other MA). Bad kamae prevents you from doing the exercises correctly. I would go so far as to say he is not a good partner. For this reason alone I would ask the teacher for help. He should be made aware of his role in the exercise and execute it as best as he can, regardless of his opinion about it.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 07-18-2011, 07:51 AM   #12
robin_jet_alt
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Re: kamae problem

My first sensei used L kamae with a straight front foot.

My next sensei used L kamae with a slightly out turned front foot.

My current sensei uses straight kamae. He has an extensive iaido background.

All 3 of them have good reasons for the way they stand.

I had knee problems when I trained with my second sensei.
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Old 07-18-2011, 07:56 AM   #13
sakumeikan
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Re: kamae problem

Dear All,
If all else fails and the non kamae guy herein keeps standing in a manner like a judoka or iaido practioner a well directed gentle kick to his kneecap will soon make him shuffle into the correct stance.It may sound a bit non aiki, but it works for me.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:07 AM   #14
sakumeikan
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Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
My first sensei used L kamae with a straight front foot.

My next sensei used L kamae with a slightly out turned front foot.

My current sensei uses straight kamae. He has an extensive iaido background.

All 3 of them have good reasons for the way they stand.

I had knee problems when I trained with my second sensei.
Dear Robin,
I prefer no 2.However it takes a bit of time and effort to get used to it.No 2 opens up the hip joint.

No 3 I assume is a bit Iaido related, this is understandable.Nevertheless Iaido is not in terms of posture the same as the stance in Aikido body art or Aikiken/jo.These function on hamni.
No 1:Comfortable stance , ok as long as knee/s are relaxed and the toe /foot does not turn inward.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:21 AM   #15
robin_jet_alt
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Re: kamae problem

Hi Joe,

I agree with you on all of those points actually. I'm having trouble with a lot of things, including the stance at my new Dojo. Having said that, my sensei certainly seems to know what he is doing, even if it is a bit odd to me. He trained with Nishio sensei, which is apparently why things are a bit unfamiliar to.

Robin
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:30 AM   #16
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Janet,
If the instructor shows the incorrect footwork is this correct?I think not.Correct foot work is correct footwork.Incorrect footwork is not correct footwork.
Which is the correct footwork? The feet pointing out style of Yoshinkan? The hanmi in the official works published by the Aikikai? The hanmi of Saito? The shizentai of Nishio? Once we establish this, we can start telling people to ignore their sensei.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:34 AM   #17
Marc Abrams
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Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear All,
If all else fails and the non kamae guy herein keeps standing in a manner like a judoka or iaido practioner a well directed gentle kick to his kneecap will soon make him shuffle into the correct stance.It may sound a bit non aiki, but it works for me.
Cheers, Joe.
Joe:

You are kinder that I am! I typically will execute a fast front snap kick that stops within an inch of the groin area. I then talk about proper kamae as being a way to control both distance and the nature of the attack....

At another level, it is simply disrespectful for a student to do something other than what the teacher directs the students to do.

Marc Abrams
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:36 AM   #18
Janet Rosen
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Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Janet,
If the instructor shows the incorrect footwork is this correct?I think not.Correct foot work is correct footwork.Incorrect footwork is not correct footwork.
As far as a beginner is concerned its important to get the footwork correct to avoid problems later.Once a bad/good habit is embodied in the student its very difficult to alter things.
Cheers, Joe.
Joe, I have been taught three different "correct" kamae used by three different shihan level instructors - depth of stance and angle of back foot being dependent on the school and style, so my answer stands as I'm not about to start arguing with any of them.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:46 AM   #19
Basia Halliop
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Re: kamae problem

To me the point isn't so much which hanmi is 'right', but more that if you are so very convinced your teacher is 'wrong' about such a fundamental thing as posture, why the heck do you want them to be your teacher?

If you don't want to learn what the teacher is teaching, don't take their class... ??

If someone like that is in your class, I'd probably kind of ignore it, personally. As someone else said, there are probably others in the class who would LOVE to have more personal attention and help instead.
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Old 07-18-2011, 10:00 AM   #20
JW
 
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Re: kamae problem

Although I agree that those who come to class should make an effort to do what they are shown by the teacher--
this guy is could be really valuable for you! I love training with people who do things "differently." Since you know full well that you can at any moment kick him in the groin, you don't have to worry about anything (he does, not you!). So you get the chance to see if you can take balance, etc as you expect, even though this guy uses a different body shape than others.

Since he acts not as he is told, you get to see if your stuff works or if everyone else is just going along with you.

Also, when you are uke, does his stance choice allow you to regain balance more easily than you are used to? All great things to explore with him.
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Old 07-18-2011, 10:16 AM   #21
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
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Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Joe:

You are kinder that I am! I typically will execute a fast front snap kick that stops within an inch of the groin area. I then talk about proper kamae as being a way to control both distance and the nature of the attack....

At another level, it is simply disrespectful for a student to do something other than what the teacher directs the students to do.

Marc Abrams
Hi Marc,
Nice to know someone appreciates my method of resolving this type of issue.Gee whiz, I have a fan at last!!Especially one who thinks alike. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 07-18-2011, 10:25 AM   #22
sakumeikan
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Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Joe, I have been taught three different "correct" kamae used by three different shihan level instructors - depth of stance and angle of back foot being dependent on the school and style, so my answer stands as I'm not about to start arguing with any of them.
Dear Janet,
Maybe the fact that three shihan taught different principles of kamae is the reason why so many aikidoka are mixed up?Its not about depth of foot etc its a question of presenting a half stance rather than a square on stance[ala Judoka] to you partner in a manner which precludes him /her from making a kick to the rear leg.Also you have to be approach [as Uke ] Tori not directly. Rather you make contact from a slightly angular position.This is apparent or should be in Shiho Nage.
As far as argueing with any Shihan is concerned thats being respectful.But it doesnt preclude you from having you own views or
assessing whether the input from the Shihan makes sense.Hopefully it should .
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 07-18-2011, 10:36 PM   #23
Chris Farnham
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Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
Having said that, my sensei certainly seems to know what he is doing, even if it is a bit odd to me. He trained with Nishio sensei, which is apparently why things are a bit unfamiliar to me.

Robin
Robin
I train some with a Nishio influenced sensei myself and at least in my experience, it's not that the Nishio style throws out the L shaped hanmi stance but that in certain situations one moves into an iaido-eseque parallel stance as a part of the tai-sabaki. One example being Yokomenuchi shihonage/ and or iriminage. Nage begins in hanmi but the rear foot moves into a parallel position(a la iaido kamae) before the front steps back while Nage cuts down/redirects the attack with his/her arms. But that is just from my experience. I also originally came from a dojo that used the foot turned out stance which you referred to as stance 2 in your first post;the dojo-cho was a former kenshusei of Chiba sensei. I totally agree with Joe in regards to this stance. When your hip is flexible it is very stable and quite safe for your knee but if you have tight hips it can put a lot of undue strain on the knee. This might be the reason that the dojo-cho from my first dojo does a lot of yogic hip opening exercises at the beginning and end of class.

Last edited by Chris Farnham : 07-18-2011 at 10:41 PM.
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Old 07-18-2011, 11:20 PM   #24
robin_jet_alt
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Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Chris Farnham wrote: View Post
Robin
I train some with a Nishio influenced sensei myself and at least in my experience, it's not that the Nishio style throws out the L shaped hanmi stance but that in certain situations one moves into an iaido-eseque parallel stance as a part of the tai-sabaki. One example being Yokomenuchi shihonage/ and or iriminage. Nage begins in hanmi but the rear foot moves into a parallel position(a la iaido kamae) before the front steps back while Nage cuts down/redirects the attack with his/her arms. But that is just from my experience. I also originally came from a dojo that used the foot turned out stance which you referred to as stance 2 in your first post;the dojo-cho was a former kenshusei of Chiba sensei. I totally agree with Joe in regards to this stance. When your hip is flexible it is very stable and quite safe for your knee but if you have tight hips it can put a lot of undue strain on the knee. This might be the reason that the dojo-cho from my first dojo does a lot of yogic hip opening exercises at the beginning and end of class.
Thanks for the pointers Chris. I am still figuring out exactly what I'm meant to be doing. I just know that there have been a number of instances (such as the ones you described) where I have had my footwork corrected. This has been particularly pronounced whenever I have been holding a sword. Having said that, my weapons work is particularly rusty because I spent the last 4 years training with a student of Masatake Fujita who was famously quoted as saying "weapons practice is not part of Aikido". My sensei didn't necessarily agree with this statement, but he simply didn't teach weapons because he had never been taught.
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Old 07-19-2011, 03:33 AM   #25
sakumeikan
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Re: kamae problem

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
Thanks for the pointers Chris. I am still figuring out exactly what I'm meant to be doing. I just know that there have been a number of instances (such as the ones you described) where I have had my footwork corrected. This has been particularly pronounced whenever I have been holding a sword. Having said that, my weapons work is particularly rusty because I spent the last 4 years training with a student of Masatake Fujita who was famously quoted as saying "weapons practice is not part of Aikido". My sensei didn't necessarily agree with this statement, but he simply didn't teach weapons because he had never been taught.
Dear Robin,
Having met Fujita Sensei I have never seen him teaching weapons.However his statement seem to be at odds with the fact that O Sensei/Saito Sensei/Tamura Sensei /Chiba Sensei /Nishio Sensei and others trained and taught weapons.This is quite clear from all the various sources[Dvds , You tube etc] where Aikido weapons are shown.Is there an authentic verifiable source whereby Fujita Senseis comments can be authenticated?
Cheers, Joe.
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